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I have not seen much consternation over the terminology, except when using girls and scouts together. Obviously the current legal issues between BSA and GSUSA are the root of that issues. I, and most I know, forgive the proximity bias, i.e. an SM of boys troop saying boys in mixed the mixed company of round tables etc. The girls I have talked to, my daughter included, are proud to be part of the Boy Scouts of America, be they Venturers or Scouts BSA.

I up voted your post because I agree with almost all of it. The one point I disagree with is a new forum or section. Both G-Troops and B-Troops issues can and should be covered in the existing framework, because it is all Scouts BSA. Will there be issues unique to girls or caused by the presence of girls? Certainly, but in the scope of scouting, I think they are minor and can be handled in the current structure, just like we are doing in the real world away from this site. Other than that, bravo. There will always be curmudgeons that don't like change, regardless of the change. I cannot say I have approved of all of the changes, but I still love and support this program and will move forward to do what I have always done, which is to help develop youth. We can hope others follow our example.

No one is antagonized, I am certainly not. Answering questions and helping others is a large part of why many of us are here. You are correct that it could be worded better. But the key element of this sentence in this instance is "eligible candidates." A scout must meet the requirements in order to be eligible. The guide specifically forbids write-in, Elections teams are forbidden from counting in-eligible Scouts, the SM must approve Scouts for them to be eligible. If a parent/adult or even a scout wants to point to that phrase, and refuses to take your explanation, then pull out the Guide and walk them through it. There are numerous instances where eligible scout is referenced in terms of being on the ballot, in voting and counting the vote. And eligible is clearly defined multiple times. Actually, this situation is covered. If such a situation occurs, the SM should call it to the attention of the CA or LA. Here is how the guide addresses this situation: 25. What should our lodge do if a Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach mistakenly certifies a Scout as eligible for election when he is not eligible and that Scout is subsequently called out? A. If a Scout was incorrectly elected, but not called out, do not add him to the list of those to be called out. Have the Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach counsel the Scout and explain to him that a mistake was made. Encourage the Scout to remain involved and committed so that he may appear on next year’s ballot. If a Scout was incorrectly called out but not inducted, do not induct him, and, again, have that Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach conference. If a Scout was incorrectly inducted, the Scout should be allowed to retain membership in the Order of the Arrow. The Scout should be counseled about the circumstances with guidance from his Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach and the chapter or lodge adviser so that they can help the Scout mature, participate, and be successful in the Order. 26. I’m a chapter adviser. A chapter election team recently conducted an election for a troop in my chapter and three Scouts were elected. The day after the election, the Scoutmaster contacted me to ask for a supplemental election because he accidentally left some Scouts off the list of those eligible for election. Can the chapter arrange for another election? A. Election policy is set by the - national OA committee to ensure uniformity across the nation. One longstanding policy is that a unit may have only one election per year. While it's regrettable that the Scoutmaster did not provide a complete list of eligible Scouts for the election that was held, national policy does not permit an additional election to be held to address the issue. Could a Scoutmaster change his mind and use the guidance above to remove an eligible and elected Scout? Yes. However, we frequently use the term "a Scout is trustworthy," in these situations. SO we trust that the SM in question, truly made a mistake and did not just change their mind. With over 100 years of experience and thousands of elections under its belt, the OA has seen just about every situation that you are likely to run into, and addressed them in various guides. TO be sure they are not perfect and can always be improved, but they are your best guide. If you still have questions after using these references, the escalate the issue to your LA or regional or national advisers. You mentioned your guide may be out of date. It more than likely is if it has been handed down. The OA provides only PDF versions that are kept currrent. Here are some links that will help you. Guide to Unit Elections - https://oa-bsa.org/uploads/publications/GuideToUnitElections2017.pdf Guide for Officers and Advisers - https://oa-bsa.org/uploads/publications/GOA-201901.pdf Many more guides and publications can be found here - https://oa-bsa.org/resources/publications I hope that helps.

Nova Counselor and Mentor each require a separate application (I don't remember the codes). They used to require separate training as well, particularly for Mentor. Mentor has some additional requirements based on field of knowledge and for Gold (Venturing) it requires that the Mentor be approved for a specific scout and project. My understanding of why the separate applications for each position is that once upon a time Scouters would register for one position and later found out they were registered for other positions they didn't even know about. Not sure how accurate that is, it may be an urban myth, but it did come from a professional, so I pay it some credence.

From the Oxford English Dictionary definition for SHOW - Demonstrate or prove. Show (pun intended) that definition to the Scouter in question, followed by this definition OBTUSE - Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

Scouts CANNOT write in candidates. Per the Guide to Unit Elections and the Guide for Officers and Advisers "Membership Requirements Unit leader approval. To become eligible for election, a Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of their unit leader prior to the election" AND "Prior to the annual election, the unit leader must certify the nominee’s Scout spirit and youth membership qualifications." A unit leader CANNOT change the results of an election "The election team and the unit leader count the votes in private. All votes count equally. If at least one has been elected, the election result is final." And "Q: Can a unit leader adjust the results of the youth election results before the results are announced? A. After the youths have voted, the unit leader cannot adjust the results of the election. The Guide for Officers and Advisers says that lodge rules must include this standard rule: Rule III.A. The requirements for membership in this lodge are as stated in the current printing of the Order of the Arrow Handbook and the Order of the Arrow Guide for Officers and Advisers. Starting on page 22 of the Guide for Officers and Advisers, the “Induction: Election to Ordeal” section details the procedure to be used for elections. Voting by Scoutmasters or adjusting the results of the youth votes is not part of the procedure and therefore is not allowed. @Longhaired_Mac as you are a Chapter Adviser I would urge you to brush up on the G2E and GOA. It is very important that the rules are applied evenly.

Wow, those were some beautiful cards. I wish we still had something like those today.

And while it is a settled issue. The mechanics and processes are still being developed. We are headed into our first Summer Camp season, not all camps are built the same way, so there will be issues in one place that do not exist in another. We are headed into the first Ordeals that will include female youth, and still trying to sort those mechanics out. Same for Camp-o-rees, high adventure, and more. I am sure some feathers will be ruffled along the way. After all we have seen heated discussions about more more benign subjects.

To the OP - I never really know where a post lives because I sort by unread and don't really pay attention to the forum structure. But, like @qwazse said, if it is a program question, then it should be in program, if it is an issue question the it should be in I&P. I have seen a number of post in various local forums, most a positive. I have noticed that things get sideways, usually with new leaders positing, when the subject matter goes a fowl of following advancement policy or BSA policy. For example, an occasional new leader will propose a way to move girls along faster, but counting activities that shouldn't count or Troops wanting to push for Coed Troops, with girl and boy patrols. Those issues are a sure fire way to push a topic in to a negative space. As for recruiting, welcome to the BSA. It is difficult to recruit that older (11-17) scouts, even if they are interested. IT takes time and effort, but I have no doubt it will catch on. We have several troops for girls in my district. Each averages about 10-14 girls. And they are a mix of crossovers and Venturers. So there is a gap in the 12-13 range. Which also creates a bit of a gap in what kind of program they want. Patience and diligence are the watch words for now.

Some of it has been solidified, in fact I am not sure what has not been, other than the option of black robes. I don't think that has been made official. Regalia must be based on your local tribe before next NOAC. Females may participate as principals, unless doing so would be objected too by your affiliated tribe (I cannot remember what the option is then - it wasn't an issue for my Lodge). As far as I know there is no exclusion for females being Allowat either. At least none were discussed at NOAC, other than if it is an issue with your local tribe. In fact I am pretty sure they said that females could participate in any role.

Every Arrowman is different, as is every Lodge and Chapter. It is a hard work. From Ordeal, to service projects that keep Council Camps in order, to ceremonies and more. There are many ways to Cheerfully Serve. But the OA offers much more. It helps fulfill the BSA AIMs of building character, citizenship and it helps build leaders and the spirit of service. It is a great deal of fun, with Ordeals, Fellowships, Banquets, Conclaves, High Adventure, National Leadership Seminars, NOAC and NSJ Service Corp. Arrowmen gather together like no other group in Scouting. The Lodge (Council Level) has multiple gatherings per year. Ordeals usually involve a good bit if service work, for candidates and brothers alike. Fellowships also have service usually, but also have training (leadership, ceremonies etc.) and fun (Quest Games and free time). It is much more youth led than Troops in most instances. Many Lodges do American Indian Activities and host Pow-wows (contrary to popular reports AIA is alive and well). Section (Area Level - several councils) meet for Council of Chiefs and Conclaves - to do training and compete in Quest games, ceremonies, AIA dance and drum teams. Scouts meet other Scouts from across several Councils and often several states. Regionally we hold NLS - an advanced training for Arrowmen. And Nationally every two years we hold NOAC (National Order of the Arrow Conference) where Lodges from all over the country gather for training, service, spectacular shows, fun events and games. There is also the Service Corp that helps run the National Scout Jamboree. In addition there is the opportunity to go to all of the high adventure bases at a much reduced rate, 1/3 to 1/6 the cost of contingents, based on where you live (travel is not included so that is why the cost vary so much). The Arrowmen perform service at Philmont, Sea Base, Northern Tier and SBR. In exchange for spening part of their time doing service work, they pay far less and get to create their own unique itineraries. Yes, it is hard work. But it is an honor. It is also an experience that most truly appreciate and treasure. It is unique in Scouting and I have seen nothing like it in other organizations. I have been a member for decades and have enjoyed every moment. My son has been a member for a few years and it is now his primary focus in Scouting, outside of his unit. My daughter has just been elected and is excited about going through Ordeal this Spring. When a Scout is elected I encourage them to attend 2 events after they have gone through Ordeal. Ordeal is hard, so if they think that is all there is to it, they probably won't return,. Most Lodges will have a Fellowship within the next two events, or a Conclave or something similar. If after those two events, they are not interested, I thank them for their service and wish them well. The OA like all things Scouting, is not for everyone. The vast majority of those that make the two events stay active in the OA. Most are active at least through high school and many until they turn 21. Some stay active for many years longer.

That is why I like the term proficiency. Somewhat more than being able to do something one time to get sign-off and something less than mastery. Knots for example. A First Class scout (rank of concept) should be able to tie a taut-line hitch without having to think much about it or struggle. If the Scout has to look at a diagram or do it two or three times to tie it correctly, they are not proficient.

To start fires: When I was young we would collect pine heart (aka fat wood) from fallen or standing dead pines. They were easy to find in Deep South where I grew up. Mostly Longleaf or Loblolly pine, but I’m sure most any evergreen would work. We would cut it down and keep it in small tins (sucrets, snuff, small band-aid boxes). We rarely used what we had in the tins because it was easy to find. We would cut them down to about the size of a strike anywhere match. They lit easily and burned for a while. Great fire starter. I’ve never run across anything that matches it. (No pun intended) An ASM brought some “fat wood” he purchased somewhere. Unfortunately, it wasn’t what I grew up with. Much lighter in color to the deep Amber we used to collect. It was also much larger, 8 inches or so in length, 3/4 in thick, much harder to light and burned up much faster.

The requirement says: "To recognize youth members who recruit a friend into Scouting." It does not specify that it must be his unit. (Though I think it once did). If he wants the award have your son talk to his Scoutmaster (with the requirement in hand) and see if he will award it. If not, you could talk to the other unit, but it could be a bit of a rub with his Scoutmaster.

I do consider them mine. Same for the athletes I have coached. With Scouts they may still refer to me by my last name even though they are older. But it really hits home with my former players that introduce me to their children as coach. That relationship, scouting or sports, never goes away entirely for either party. And I m glad.

There may be something else at play here. Last year I was talking to another Scouter about my son wanting to mow grass to pay for high adventure trips. His son was doing yard work, to earn money and was thinking about working on the merit badge, when he was approached by a “police officer” asking if he had his license, insurance and other documents (including a license to use the Roundup in the bed of his truck). Turns out that it was a code enforcement officer, and he wrote a summons for the youth. Depending on the nature of your community, the old requirements could get cumbersome and expensive. His son went to work at a fast food restaurant and stopped pursuing the merit badge.

Disturbed, frustrated, disappointed; however it should be categorized, it's present for a number of reasons. I appreciate that we some professional Scouters on this site, I wish more would come and participate. I have a number of professional Scouters I count as personal friends (i.e. being friends outside of Scouting as well as in). Unfortunately there are many volunteers that have a negative opinion of professional Scouters in general, mostly unwarranted. It is usually based on a single or few encounters, where professionals are doing their job correctly but it rubs the volunteer the wrong way. I spend a fair amount of time defending professionals from volunteers that really have no reason to be upset. RichardB frequently comes across as dismissive and condescending and that is bothersome and create a justification for those that dislike professionals out of hand. It is frustrating that it appears he and other professionals have not read the documents with a close eye and critical thought or he would see how they can be confusing. It is frustrating that those making national policy appear to have little to no unit level Scouting experience so they can understand volunteers issues. If he and others do have unit level experience and do read the documentation closely, but do not understand or acknowledge that BSA distributes contradictory and confusing information across various documents, sometimes within the same document, that is doubly frustrating. To quote: "Feedback is a gift." If it felt like it was received that way more often it would go a long ways towards better volunteer/professional relationships.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "unsanctioned." If you mean using the schools equipment or facilities, you MAY be correct. But if a group wants to play soccer at the local park, or basketball at the YMCA or even 7-on-7 football in an open field, that doesn't fall under unsanctioned. Even the NCAA, which is notoriously over-reaching doesn't consider that an infraction. In fact, as long as it is not required, or coerced or attended by staff or their agents most athletes can get together for additional practice. You see D1 QB's get together with their WR's all the time, even using school facilities and balls. I have not done government work in Illinois for well over a decade, so things may have changed, but I used to do so on several states and no Opening meeting Laws were ever that broad. All of the open meeting laws I had to comply with had criteria like quorums, definitions of the mechanics of conducting business and ALL had exceptions for informal and social gatherings. Hey also included wording about (I forget the exact term) of trying to skirt the quorum and "conduct of business" rules. Why did I preface with all of the above? Because even governing bodies notorious for over reaching (NCAA, Federal and State governments) realize the existence of and make exceptions for personal and social engagement of their governed members. Even with your insider trading laws reference; those laws or very difficult to enforce and convict on because we have rights to assemble and discuss our lives outside the framework of the school and our profession. While I fully realize the drivers and reasoning y BSA's policies, they have extended them beyond the point that can one can reasonably be expected to control, or in some cases that are impossible to control, by extending the policies to "out side of scouting." Some of the policies have fundamentally changed the program. There are literally dozens of common scenarios where BSA policy is not feasible and/or over reaches. Parents are being told polices that cover the 5% of their lives that consist of Scouting that are now being extended to cover the 95% that isn't Scouting. For parents to question/disregard these polices during that 95% should not surprise anyone.

Many Councils do make long term commitments. But is is difficult. Trying to establish generational ties for example. Many of the inner city youth do not have parents/relatives that were Scouts, let alone generational Eagle Scouts. Finding direct contact volunteers is difficult as well. Many of the Scouts come from single parent homes, and that parent may work 2 or more jobs. Many volunteer come from other districts, others may actually be paid. Adding to that, units are often tied to schools or other after school community programs. That makes it difficult to get volunteers who work 9-5 jobs. On the other hand, in some ways it is easier to raise funds for inner city scholarships. People and businesses are willing to write a check to help these youth. That money can be used for scholarships for uniforms, camps, high adventure etc. Even though it is easier to raise money, there never seems to be enough. It is tough work and can grind on you at times because of the uphill battle. But it is very rewarding to see kids who have never been in the woods before Scouting, then watch them go to Summer camp for the first time, go Philmont or Jamboree and come back with their stories of adventure. Or to see get their Eagle pinned on their chest. Possibly the best part is when you see a youth that stuck with the program go off to college. Often times they are the first in the family to get a college degree. The percentage of long term Scouts that go to college is much higher than their inner city peers that don't do Scouting. Bottom line.......Scouting makes a difference.

My personal favorite is the turks head knot. Once a youth learns it, they can get creative, and make some really nice woggles. Venturers use the friendship knot frequently. There is also the 2 hole and 3 hole slides, which are nothing more than pieces of leather with holes big enough for the necker to slide through. The Scout can decorate them a number of ways; carve, etches, draw, paint etc. A leather magic braid which is a bracelet that is often made in craft classes by youth. A shorter version can be made as a woggle and they look similar to a turks head knot. A simple strip of leather with 3-4 lace holes on the back and tied with a leather cord. I can be decorated in ways similar as mentioned above in 2 and 3 hole slides. One of the most beautiful hand made woggles I have ever seen was made from an ivory nut. If you have the time and patience to carve one, they are awesome, even a simple rounded carving. They resemble elephant ivory but are made from a plant. Skilled carvers can make some incredible designs. You can buy the nuts online and I have seen them as big as 2.5 inches in diameter. When finished they are very hard and durable. You can get creative with what you find. I was given a woggle at Jamboree from a Unit from West Africa. It was the outer covering of some type of nut or fruit. The top and bottom were cut of leaving a perfect woggle. It is pretty hard and resembles reptile scales and is a beautiful wood. It was a gift not a trade, but I gave them a $100 patch set and felt guilty because their gift was so much cooler than the one I gave them.

Doh! My bad.

@RememberSchiffNot sure that link goes to same article you are citing. Council assisted chartered units are not uncommon in urban and very rural areas that might otherwise not have Scouting. They are sometimes run by Council “resource” staff that are hired for that purpose and may “run” 2-4 units. Sometimes school staff is paid by Councils to add running a unit to their current job functions. It is not ideal but the youth would not have Scouting if not for these programs. As for coed, it may not be coed. I can’t tell you how many articles I have seen where facts were omitted or just flat wrong. I can’t blame the media entirely, even though it’s their job to get it right. The percentage of Scouters that explain the structure often state BSA policy in confusing ways, are confused themselves or just flat out have it wrong.

Change is tough, regardless of if is welcomed or not. Just embrace it with a cheerful spirit and make it as positive as possible. Change in COR vs CC bring different challenges. But it sounds like this COR is basically doing the roll of CC and possibly some CM/SM duties as well. That will likely impose some greater challenges, but may also open some great opportunities as well.

Actually, for rank requirements it is whomever the Scoutmaster gives that authority. He can assign that to Scouts, other adults, both or no one else but the SM. It is at the Scoutmasters discretion. Obviously, for Start to Eagle, there are merit badges and Eagle project that require additional sign-off. Merit Badges on the other hand, must be signed off by a registered merit badge counselor.

On its face it seems like a good idea and the right thing to do. But I wonder if you would be stepping into a legal mine field. If you say we are going to follow HIPAA and then do something incorrectly by mistake, where would that leave you from a legal jeopardy perspective? Not a lawyer, just pondering the possibilities....