curious_scouter

Our SM put this to the PLC, which I thought was a great approach. They did some research and looked into policies from a variety of troops. They ended up taking the approach that electronics are part of our life now, but like Knives they are tools within Scouting and there's a time and place for them and a proper way to use them. So the set up SOPs for use of electronics and required a class to gain a "cyber totin chit" just like a knife. When Scouts aren't using their tools in line with the PLC's established SOP they are warned. If it becomes habitual or there's a severe infraction, they lose the right until they take the class again and re-commit to the SOPs. I liked this approach a lot. IN PRACTICE - they have not followed through real well But I still like it. Sets clear ground rules for use and consequences for misuse. "When I was a kid" electronics on campouts were strictly forbidden. I think that's impractical today BUT scouts should be encouraged to put them away, enjoy the activity and outings, etc. Phones in particular are also cameras, GPS units, compasses, note taking devices, research tools, etc. There is value to their use even on an outing, but it's all about time and place.

Councils don't want to do this any more than the units do. If they did, they would have been pushing this for years. It's being done out of necessity and Scouts BSA needs this to work. If there's widespread looting of unit resources by council(s) it will torpedo this and scouting is likely to fail. I'm not worried at all about council chartering and the resources of our unit being protected if we're required to go that route. I'm more worried about having a consistent place to meet and somewhere safe to keep the trailer without having to pay through the nose for storage.

Consistent with the don't overblow, but don't underestimate the risks sentiment (which is a good point) a corporation only provides so much protection. Officers of the corporation are quite often included in lawsuits, especially if there is some presumed negligence. I've run a 501c7 for many, many years and we carry officers and board liability insurance for this very reason. If you elect to explore the formal charity route, invest in professional advice from an attorney and an accountant who have good experience in these matters. They will know all the latest scuttle and they will be familiar with your state's rules as well as the IRS requirements.

In the Rules and Regulations there is a section about Charters to Groups of Citizens: Establishing a 501c3 doesn't seem to be 100% mandatory then. In the past I shied away from doing 501c3's for several groups I established over the filings and compliance requirements being pretty stiff and either challenging for a "regular person" to navigate or an expense for hiring a professional to maintain. There are probably others who will say it's a piece of cake. Just sharing my experience on establishing a real charity.

Yeah, that's what I was asking. If someone who administrates the forum could look to see if there is an option to enable discussion topic titles in the browser title bar. I went to the invision site to see if I could find info about the setting to suggest. I could not but while there I noticed their forums have this. See screenshots attached for what I mean. ETA: That long text "Option for homepage title..." that's the topic title I was currently viewing. On the Scouter Forum site it's always just "Scouter Forum".

When you click into a topic, is there a configuration in the back end that will put the topic subject in the browser title? I usually come, open the unread messages stream, and then I'll open several in new tabs and read through. But each tab just says "Scouter Forum", so if I need a refresh I need to scroll to the top of page. Not a HUGE deal, but thought I'd file the though/request and see. Thanks in advance for anything

My two cents: Assuming the idea is to help them ease into the Patrol Method, only the boys should wear the patrol emblem. You should emulate the role of a Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster in the exercise. We did this in our AOL year to prepare them for the patrol method. Have them elect a leader. When possible, rely on the Patrol leader to execute tasks and run activities during the den meetings. If you have a Den Chief, treat them like the Senior Patrol Leader and progressively start asking them to direct the Patrol leader. I found it hard after 8 years in a Pack to adjust to the "boy lead" mindset of a Troop. After so many years of doing for/with them, it's hard to back off a bit. This is good practice for them and for you

I'm an engineer so I value STEM but I do not want to see a focus on STEM in Scouts BSA. There is no shortage of STEM programs, focus, and push in school and home. Let Scouts be about other things.

I'd take the meeting with the COR at least by phone. They have the authority to replace the CC or the SM if they feel the situation demands it. I still think you should move on FWIW. Even if the COR does the right thing here, I think the well is poisoned. You will be valued elsewhere.

Has anyone here done what @elitts suggests and create their OWN not for profit to serve as a charter? I have never heard of this, curious to see if it's a common and successful practice. It seems like if you find yourself suddenly charter-less and need to act fast, if the Council Unit option does not appeal the best other alternative is the "group of citizens" charter option. But then some person has to volunteer to have the finances attached to their own SSN which these days seems like it would create tax complications for that person. I know I'd be reluctant to put my own SSN on the line.

I found this doc: https://www.bsacac.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Fiscal-Policies-and-Procedures-for-BSA-Units_CAC_FINAL.pdf I think it answers this question:

I think I'm a duty roster believer. This weekend we went to a camporee and ... well I'd like to say we "decided to try" the "everyone helps" method but in reality we just ended up there for ... reasons. I didn't love it, the boys were split. There were literally too many cooks in the kitchen in my opinion I see value in the duty roster. It sets expectations clearly, helps ensure everyone takes their turn, breaks larger tasks down into more manageable pieces, it helps those who need a turn for advancement get it, and it avoids congestion. The patrol leader can make an executive call if the meal plan really demands a few more hands for cooking or KP. I think I support the standard duty roster template. If there is no fire, it's easy to scratch off. Having the water crew ensure water vessels are full and to heat the water for KP does provide more jobs to do, leadership chances, and a better sharing of the task load than having KP crew responsible to get and heat water on top of doing the actual dishes.

I suspect the answer to this is going to be "you need to call your council" but I've seen a lot of Charter orgs pulling support and have seen that you can now do a "Council Unit" charter directly with your council if needed vs. a traditional nonprofit organization. For anyone who has done that, how does banking work? Can you still obtain a bank account to conduct business or do you need to do everything via reimbursement? I can't find a lot of details on how a Council Unit works. The agreement is here: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Annual-Registration-Agreement-Council-Units.pdf It says nothing about finances. Over the past years I've worked with two scouting units, both with the same charter org, and both had bank accounts under that org's EIN.

Does seem a bit ungrateful to complain about what you get when nothing is owed. If friendly with the council peeps, I'd say so respectfully. We want to help and especially now, but that kind of response is off putting and certainly I'll think twice about doing this in the future. Not everyone will speak up and say so, if you're doing this routinely - I'd consider you're doing yourself more harm than good. An effusive "thank you" and highlighting the support in a newsletter or round table would generate a lot more benefit than dickering for an extra 10%. That said, it's easy to imagine there being a lot of pressure on councils to drum up new money in the face of the bankruptcy costs. It may be coming from the right place, but presented in an off putting way. I dunno.

Kudos on stepping into the role to enable the scouts to keep benefiting from the program. It's a lot of work in general, even more when you're taking over cold turkey. Hopefully you will get as much out of it as the scouts, despite the work - I hope you have a ton of fun!

Young cubs don't need the handbook, they are lead through advancement. Leaders could benefit, but the pack could have a rotating library. I think Webelos/AOL should have a book if the troop(s) they are likely to move to use them so they get in the habit of always bringing it with them and taking it to leaders for signoff. For Scouts BSA, as prevalent as electronic stuff is getting, at least in our troop we're not there yet. The paper handbook is still the source of record for a boy's advancement. I do feel a Scouts BSA scout should have a handbook, but I think it should be a one-time buy and any requirements changes can be handled off a stapled-in printout or electronically. The content has not changed a lot since I was a youth a million years ago. I read the new handbook this summer cover to cover while bored at summer camp. The content is really good. On that basis alone, I feel like it's worth having. I encourage every Scout to read it once cover to cover. I also like to think there's still a positive benefit to encouraging the use of books today over electronics for research. I encourage anyone in a position of responsibility or thinking of running for elections to read the section about servant leadership in particular. I think it's wonderfully written. In our troop Scoutbook is updated from the paper handbook opportunistically, usually following a board of review. Everything ends up electronically, but we still rely on the paper handbook. I'm a mega electronic nerd and I even support the ongoing use of the paper books. They never run out of batteries camping, lose cell signal, etc. Call me old fashioned

This is the way Nice!

As a follow-up here is where some time and additional research has lead. " The way my brain works, I think of it as the CO ultimately has ownership but it's under the care of the unit." This was basically what our council exec advised me. Anything purchased with any pack monies, den dues or otherwise, is instantly the property of the CO. It's kept under our care and you can even permit the Den who initiated the acquisition to have exclusive use of those items. But they are the property of the CO and the CR has final say over their disposition. We have no bylaws or documentation about our processes. So we're going to create one of those too. This way everyone is on the same page all the time, or should be. We've agreed on these high level principles: Den leaders will continue to collect, manage and secure den dues and other monies. Den leaders have the option to secure collected funds depositing in the pack account. Anyone electing not to use this tool will be responsible for securing the funds themselves and for any loss of those funds. Dues are to be collected weekly, no annual payment of dues. Den leaders will begin to report to the committee once monthly on a standard report their status. Property purchased with any pack monies is the property of the CO and the CR has final say over disposition. TBD: There is some consideration going into setting a max "carry over" with the expectation that Dens should plan to use all money collected in the run of the year. A small "nest egg" carry over is okay, but we would like to see all monies in a program year spent on scouts in that program year. This addresses a lot of the open concerns. As Treasurer, my main concern is whether I was responsible for the care and maintenance of all this distributed money. Sure - it's "Den Money" but ultimately it's not. I worried a lot about "We lost $X when so and so quit. You knew they were sitting on a pile of cash, why didn't you do something?" Both from a personal and liability standpoint. But this addresses that. It allows the Den Leaders who take offense at not being allowed to hold the funds to do so, but it also puts the onus on them to secure it. It also answers the question about what to do with property purchased by the Dens (and Pack) up to the CR which seems right and proper. This sets the stage that by rights, the property will likely stay with the pack but leaves the door open for our CR to make a case-by-case decision. It is also strongly aligned to proper BSA policies. Asking for a report from all dens seemed sensible. We came to an agreement that just because parents aren't asking for one - doesn't mean they don't want one. Many parents will simply be too timid to ask or feel that it's confrontational to ask. If it's a policy, they can ask the treasurer for a copy and take the conflict and personal element out of it. Plus with a report the committee can get ahead of situations like "dues are not getting paid, Den leader X is out of pocket $300" which is actually happening, but only became apparent through our recent conversations. So hopefully as a committee we can either help them there or we agree to make the leaders whole out of the pack account if Den Dues are not working. It's my position that noone should have to spend a small fortune being a Den Leader. All DLs I've ever known are generous with their time and also tend to "splurge" on their boys, but buying everyone's belt loops out of pocket is beyond what I would expect from any volunteer in our pack. Finally we discussed and we feel strongly that weekly dues payments have a lot of value. First, dues are intended to be an exercise in responsibility for the boys. Boys should pay their dues to the Den Leader weekly as a way of building responsibility. Remembering to bring their money, remembering to have it recorded with the Den Leader. They should also work with their parents to define a way to earn those dues monies throughout the week in some fashion. We feel this is a very large character building aspect of dues which has been overlooked as many parents tend to pay the dues to the DLs and in lump sums. Secondly, by paying weekly the DL can adjust dues policy mid-year. If they get halfway through and look to be way ahead on dues - they can cut them back or suspend them or make plans on how to use any surplus.

@all, thanks for your feedback. @@qwazse, "If you're getting this much push-back, apologize to your people and move on." Frankly, this concerns me more than anything. If everything were above board, why be so outraged at the mere conversation? If I have a concern and I voice it - should it not be discussed? @@Fred in particular, As the pack permits the den to keep donations earned during fundraisers and it is not just den dues from parents (and some would say "from the boys") in play. Beyond that, if a den is accumulating money at a profit year to year and still asking parents for dues - that seems counter to our purpose. RE: Pack traditions, I also do not subscribe to the idea that just because this is how it's always been done that it's right and ought to be that way forever. Times change. Needs change. I'm not saying what's going on is "wrong" but but the idea of "if you are not comfortable with the status quo, butt out" is not in line with my personal convictions. Also recall in my preface, we do not have any pack level dues. ALL dues are managed at the den level. Which is why this is coming up. Things are happening that we don't have answers to. A den leader quit with only an email notice. He was the tiger leader for an entire year. This predates my tenure as treasurer. Nobody knows if he has den money in hand that he needs to return. Noone knows if we can even get it from him if he does. This will not be an isolated incident. What about the other questions - if a den buys "stuff".. where does it go at crossover? To the troop? Not all boys go to the same troop. To the pack? It was bought with den money from parents. Sold off and the proceeds split between then-active parents? Noone knows. Beyond this, BSA has this to say relative to the pack treasurer role: Collect dues from den leaders at the pack leaders’ meeting, preferably in sealed den dues envelopes. Open envelopes in the presence of den leaders. Give receipts for these funds, and deposit the money in the bank account. Am I naive? Is this not actual common practice? Sorry for the pushback if it's perceived that way and appreciate the feedback. I'm new to being a treasurer of a pack but I've been in scouting for 33 years now. As an adult only 3 years of that in Cub Leadership. Obviously I have some experience ("baggage"?) that is coloring this for me.

First post, and I apologize making it a heavy one but I'm in need of some objective advice from other scouters. Apologize for the length, but please - read and comment. I could use some advice from folks without a horse in the race. I'm involved in a well established pack and starting this year we are transitioning the CC, CM and treasurer roles to new people to give a bit of overlap between the "old guard" and the "new guard" as the old guard is all crossing over in January. I stepped into the treasurer role. Over the summer I worked with the former treasurer and CC to learn about processes and policies. I learned in that time that nearly nothing was documented - 100% of our "policies" are spoken word. It was also pretty clear that while the outgoing CC and CM seemed to share this understanding of policies, it was not something the den leaders, rest of the committee or parents understood. But... things seemed to be clicking along and we have most of a year to transfer the knowledge with them helping to guide us so I didn't really worry about it too much. Then recruiting happened. We went from 45 boys to 90 during recruiting and our financial landscape changed pretty quickly and dramatically. I started to feel really uncertain about the volume of money changing hands in the absence of documented controls and policies. I addressed this with the new CC and she and I have put in place some new policies like all money in goes to the bank, all money out goes out as a check. I'm passionate about paper trail. This has been working well. In our pack, we do not do Pack dues. The Dens have dues and collect/manage/report out to parents on them. How they collect, manage and spend dues is currently entirely at their discretion. The pack also permits the Dens to keep any donations given during show and sells for popcorn. So if you're out selling popcorn and say "Would you like to buy some" and the person says "No, but here's $1 donation" the Den gets to keep that. Dens are on average collecting $75 per child annually for dues and in the last show and sell cycle for popcorn each den earned around $400 in donations. This means we have upwards of $8000+ in dues and donation funds "floating around" out there. Right now den leaders hold this money. Some keep it in a literal coffee can. Some have it in their gun safe. Some at their work safe. It all "feel safe" but last night I brought up my concern about "What if?" What if someone breaks into your home and takes your gun safe? What if your house burns down? What if (God forbid) you fell ill and all the den funds are locked up in your work safe? Beyond this, I raised concerns like while I don't have a full accounting from every Den I know at least some dens had significant carry-over from the previous year. If that's the case, are you giving parents dues credits since there was a previous year surplus? If not, why are you continuining to charge dues at last year's rate when you're starting off with a significant nest egg. Also, let's say that carry-over continues (since there is no policy that forbids it or addresses it at all) and at crossover a den has money left in the possession of the den leader. What happens to that money? Nobody knows the answer to that question and my position is - that's dangerous. It's a recipe for discord and hurt feelings, but also exposes the leaders and the pack fiscally. Some Dens spend their money on "stuff". Like a grate for campfire cooking, a dedicated igloo cooler for ice water, etc. Who owns those assets? What happens to them at crossover? Nobody could answer that. We recently had a den leader email us at 3pm on a Thursday simply "I quit." Does he have a stash of den dues and money at his house? Nobody could answer that. I felt like this was a real and reasonable concern. My proposal was that we deposit all Den collected funds into the Pack bank account. I would account for them as virtual accounts in our financial statement and would cut a check on request and Den leaders could also maintain a reasonable amount as petty cash to address spur of the moment needs. This would secure the assets and build in some transparency and safety without restricting access in unreasonable ways. AND that we should start to establish policies about the questions I asked above. This proposal did not go over well. I was clear this was not related to any current situation and certainly wasn't about trust of our leaders. Regardless, several people started yelling and finally stormed out swearing at me saying "You trust me with your kids, but not your money?" and while a lot of people in the room recognized this was not a personal issue, that's where it landed for a key group of individuals. So in the face of conflict, everyone wants to just let things ride as-is. I think that's a horrible idea. I think the things I'm asking are eventualities. They will happen. Having agreed on policies for these eventualities will avoid hurt feelings and potential exposure for our volunteers. My hope was the presentation and proposal would generate conversation and we could arrive at some improvement, but the final outcome was "You can do whatever you want, I'm not changing what I do." I mean, so far nothing horrible has happened under this model. That's true. But historically our dens were very poor, scrapping for funds and cutting a lot of corners. Suddenly they are carrying sizable balances forward year to year and hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars of cash and assets are stashed in private homes. The landscape has changed and I don't think we can carry on by the seat of our pants. It's a recipe for trouble. Do I have valid concerns here or over reacting? As Pack treasurer, is this any of my business? Should I just butt out, leave the den finances alone? Are Den monies "den monies" or are they pack assets held in trust by the den leaders? Inviting your frank feedback and if you have experience with this kind of thing, please share. I searched and googled and found very little from BSA on this kind of thing. I was hoping there was some BSA policy that clearly addressed den dues, but I did not see anything like that.