Col. Flagg

Many camps require troops to keep their adult-to-Scout ratio at all times.

Yeah, my bad. It was supposed to be this link to the GTA as well as the Eagle Workbook itself. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

@@NJCubScouter, personally I can justify things related to sustaining life as justifiable, as opposed to things that may impact the planet and resources (or other life forms) for recreation. As long as we plant trees (or attempt to) to replenish what we are using, that's okay. Farming animals or crops okay. Even hunting wild animals is okay, as long as it is done in a conserving manner. I realize it is a matter of degree when talking about impact to the Earth. One could argue our mere existence or stepping outside will alter the environment or impact others. I'm trying to be a bit more reasonable. I like the circus. I like hunting. But as I get older I am finding it harder to enjoy either. The former is VERY difficult for me to reconcile as necessary, or even desirable. The latter, of course, can be justified for health and safety reasons.

I get the sentiment. I also get the "behind the scenes" concerns. For the sake of argument...and by that I mean discussion...how would one reconcile their support of the circus with the whole LNT movement.? It's pretty hard to "leave only footprints" when you are taking a wild animal out of their habitat, training them to do unnatural things, etc. Not trying to start anything. I am just curious as this is what I am struggling with myself. Curious how others who like the circus feel.

Or...we can just go to the source and find out what they say about it. https://nega-bsa.org/advancement/eagle-project-fundraising-policy/

Nailed it! How many times have we heard folks in this forum talk about "get a cup of coffee and sit back"? Do you head out to Sbux on your camp outs to get that coffee? Or are you sitting around the camp fire being "available" for your Scouts? You can still have a boy led troop effectively using the Patrol Method and still be around camp for your boys. We tell all of our adults (all trained Scouters, not just parents) that their job is to 1) circulate and be seen, this provides support and encouragement and also let's the boys know you are there if needed, 2) get trained, 3) relax and chat with others to exchange ideas, 4) problem solve or support when needed, 5) enjoy themselves but remember their role.

And now we come full circle to the phone thread. We experienced the same issue with phone usage. It would get abused and we would deal with the abuse in several ways. The other scouts saw the others seemingly "getting away" with their use. So the maturity wasn't happening as fast as the abuse was escalating. And any good work we were doing at Scouts was being undone by mom and dad at home...and the cycle continued. I will say this having dealt with many ADD/ADHD/Asperger kids and their parents, if mom and dad are TRULY working to manage this behavior they will work with you, know ways to help the kid cope, give you strategies to manage him, etc. This means they actively are working to help the child. If the DON'T, then you will NEVER fix this problem. Without the help and insight from home you are banging your head against a wall.

In my state you wouldn't go to the school, you'd go to the parent to determine medical need. If he has one you have to allow it by state law.

I wonder if they shut down if they will spend millions on new "closed" signs or use the ones printed up last year?

Not to derail this thread, but my guys feel the same way. Many wish the Cyber Chip addressed other issues which it doesn't.

Cyber Chip? Oy vey. Talk about a double facepalm. So which council group is going to confirm every kid with a phone has their Cyber Chip?

Forgot I was talking to a lawyer. It means that one of the possible reasons people are having issues getting to this site may be related to how they are routed to the site by their Internet provider. Think of it like using Google Maps versus Tom Tom versus Magellan versus MapQuest. Some route you well, others send you from NJ to PA back to NJ to Delwaware just to get to Philly....from Cherry Hill. I can't rule out is isn't the server since I can't see a few things. Given the response I am getting posting, reading and just moving around I highly doubt it is the server....but only the admin can tell.

Actually it was what your wrote. You seemed to be saying that allowing my guys to ban phones was some how driven by adult desires; it isn't. In fact, the adults are split on the subject but we all agreed to allow the boys to run things. Second, you seem to imply that allowing phones (and making the great leap of faith that all boys will eventually mature and not use them too much) is some how more enlightened than my guys banning them BUT taking the responsible (and I might add, very mature stance) to document how the ban might be lifted. Lastly, you seem to ignore the negative impacts of too much screen time. Besides not being good for them, screens in the wild really runs afoul of the reason they are there in the first place. Those were my points and how I read your replies.

@@NJCubScouter, so I also did a tracert (or trace route) since I got in to BOTH sites with no loss and near similar return and process times. Trace router revealed that Cogent Networks are having issues, as is Level 3's southwest hubs (Dallas, OKC and St. Louis). Depending on where folks are in the country, and how their provider connects to the backbone, will affect their experience in getting to any point. The best analogy is exactly like traffic patterns. At some times of day going one way is great, then 10 minutes later it is a parking lot. Same with networks. Cogent hopped be 7 times, L3 4 times. When I hard-routed through my VPN to another network I got to the site in 8 hops. My guess is these two providers are doing work OR experiencing heavy traffic OR have an infrastructure issue (e.g., hardware).

@@Stosh, it's been a while since you've bought a cell phone, hasn't it? Not sure about your area, but where I live most kids have the latest tech. One kid in our unit broke the PLC policy about no phones at camp last summer. Kid took his new iPhone sailing with him...guess where it ended up? What did mom and dad do? Bought him a brand new one before the very next meeting (we arrived home on Sat, he had a new phone Monday). No amount of parenting on my part, or consequence dishing out by the SPL is going to change this kid's approach to rule-breaking. The problem is mom and dad. I have a kid with ADHD. I fought it tooth and nail. I was a firm believer that it was just an over-diagnosed fad. After years of research and struggle, going to an endless list of experts, I found some real substantive research around it. In our case we don't know the cause (the kid did not get screen time nor was he exposed to video games, long periods of TV), but we saw the effect. This helped us find a way to manage it. This was my point above. Generally, kids seem to lack the interpersonal skills they did 20 years ago. They seem to rely on google to give them the answer rather than studying. Don't get me wrong, I love tech. I have every gadget known to mankind. And yes, when I am in the back country I *do* have tech...BUT it is to record the adventure. I bring my GoPro, SLR, tripods, iPhone and other stuff, HOWEVER, I use it to take pics and video which we compile later in to some really great memories. I *don't* use it watch Bond movies by the campfire or to play Minecraft on Baldy.

I'll play Devil's advocate against phones a bit further. There are health, growth and maturation arguments for limiting screen time. The American Academy of Pediatrics came out with some guidelines on screen usage which CNN picked up last fall. Many kids have too much screen time already. So much so that sleep patterns are interrupted, social skills are dulled or underdeveloped, the ability to communicate with others is affected and a host of other issues. When you couple that research with the research on the impact of "unplugging" and being outdoors and the impact on your mental and physical health in very positive way, the PLC's decision to leave phones in the car is a good one. When you weigh all these factors, for me, they outweigh any positive factors of allowing phones in camp. And yes, even reading books too much at camp (whether MB books or Harry Potter) is not good either. Go catch a fish instead.

Let's not be fooled, the consequences and maturation process will not go away just because Johnny doesn't have his iPhone 7 to play with. There's plenty of other stuff for him to lose and learn from, as evidenced by the quite large Lost and Found at my local council camp.

I was addressing the questioned whether a Scout reading a book was not actively participating at summer camp. So, for me, it would depend on what the book was. Same would go for if we allowed cell phones. If the Scout was using a nature app or something, fine. My feelings are immaterial to what our PLC does. They do plenty I would do differently or that I disagree with, but my role is to guide them. I happen to agree with them on this but I played Devil's advocate bringing up many of the points folks have used here. I can tell you they quite effectively shot them all down. They acknowledged that they might relax the rule in the future and they even put together conditions under which the rule could be lifted. I have to say, their handling of the situation and development of conditions to revisit the issue showed more maturity than I could ever have imagined, so I take offense at Barry's stance that banning anything some how makes the boys' decision less mature. I played my role as I was expected to. Trust me, they've done other things I've disagreed with, but I sat there drinking my coffee watching the resulting mayhem unfold.

Really? Can we refrain from this stuff? My guys also voted to ban mobile phones. The reason was because a decent number of guys were addicted to them. After trying various ways to allow them to suffer consequences and allowing them to "mature" on their own, it became such a problem taking away from program that they took action. It wasn't like they spent days and months on the subject. It came up during a PLC, there was debate and they passed the rule. Done. The result? We have folks actually engaged in the outdoor program instead of worrying about snapchatting their friends who stayed home to sit in front of the TV or computer. We have guys doing astronomy at night and not watching YouTube. We have guys that know how to use map and compass (and prefer it) to watching a screen to get their location. Banning them doesn't make us any more or less a troop than yours. I am proud the Scouts took this step. The results have paid off. Maybe another PLC will reinstate the use of phones outside of travel. It is their troop so it is up to them.

@@CalicoPenn brings up a good point. If a Scout is nose-deep in a book, is it any different than continually staring at a mobile phone. I would say it depends on the book and what they are using the phone for. If they are reading a MB pamphlet or other Scouting book then I have no issue. Same if they are using the phone for the same reasons. But how often are these kids using phones for those purposes? In my experience, the reality is that the vast majority of phone usage is for gaming or texting. Remember, the goal of summer camp is to get the kids outside and experiencing the outdoors. Two kids sitting on a bench doing multi-player gaming is NOT the same as two kids sitting on a bench playing cards.

Is an existential Scout ever really here?

ROFL, actually I am mimicking my Scouts. My expectations are the same as my Scouts. Scouts comply with rules and expectations, whether its on the rifle range, in camp, in an ax yard, dinning hall or during a MB class. When they don't there are consequences. This has been something our PLC has used long before I showed up. Can't use your knife or ax properly, lose the privilege and get re-earn Totin' Chip. Don't follow ranges rules, you don't get to go to the range. Bust up a MB class constantly, expect to be sent home. The Scouts who don't follow the rules learn pretty fast from those who do. @@RememberSchiff, our school district allows phone usage pretty liberally, though a few campuses don't.

Sorry, but we've tried all that. They mature in other areas just fine. But some kids just won't put up the devices. When they don't it leads to others wondering why they have to abide by the rules. You act as if there's only one road to maturity. My guys are no more or less mature than anyone else's. They just got tired of a few guys breaking the rules. Their approach was to eliminate the temptation. Guess what? I works. And no, it doesn't make them any less mature than your method.

Don't Elmer Fudd-shame.

LOL. That's too funny. I guess if they didn't have the phone they would have either 1) solved it themselves or 2) woken up the SM or their SPL.