Col. Flagg

+1 for reading the Leader/Parent Guide. Hate the name by the way. Should be Camp Guide or something like that. Saying Leader or Parent Guide makes it sound like its for them only, when most times it is the camp catalog and guide to adventure for the SCOUTS!!

I thought I&P was where non-Scouting issues went for debate, no? Not sure I broke the law or oath in my post either.

While making stuff up is not unique to the left, the vitriol with which it is espoused is. I don't recall 8 years of people calling Obama a Nazi or a state party leader openly saying (on TV no less), $%#* Obama. So there is that.

Well, it forces us to find middle ground, unless you are on the left. Then you just play the (insert liberal issue) card, scream, whine, protest and make stuff up and say that the other person is oppressing you.

Thanks @@NJCubScouter. I suspected what your thoughts were and, wait for it, I have to agree. I'd like to see more of what my cousin calls the "core Scouting skills". Things like cooking, camping, map/compass/orienteering, first aid, personal management, personal fitness, swimming/hiking, lifesaving/eprep, communications and such should continue to be required. As BSA tries to move with the times, I'd like to see subjects like these below become part of the curriculum of required skills: fire safety, home repair (which would be revamped to cover things like electricity, plumbing, carpentry and other trade skills), digital technology (to include computers, networks, mobile devices, applications, etc), soil/water conservation/environmental science, weather The biggest waste of time for my Scouts are the "citizenship" badges. Can't we lump the major concepts of these three into one badge? If you must have a Cit in the World badge then have it be non-required.

>2.2 million across all programs, but that's before the adjust downward as they always do in August...or for the losses they will pick up after the LDS pull out.

We have too much going on to "make your own" for an item the guys would rather see done away with totally. If we had a meeting to do this we'd get 5 guys showing up, mostly because they didn't read their email about what the meeting was about. This would be right up next to the "bring your youngest sibling to Scouts and baby sit them" night. Smaller units might be able to do this, but larger ones where the necker is not popular, this would be a non-starter.

This intrigued me, @@NJCubScouter. I get the vague and inconsistent implications and agree. Am more curious about the sentiment behind "too many things to too many people" comment with regard to requirements. Can you share more?

If they get rid of the local option, that sound you hear will be BSA's membership number plummeting beyond one million total.

Have you priced the neckers. They used to be $5. Recently they were $6.99. They are now $9.99!!! And that's for the generic ones. The Webelos one is $11!!! Custom ones are $13. Slides are $6!!!! Sorry, but $20 for a part of the uniform the boys hate to wear, and lose fairly often, is too expensive. Agree on the expensive uniform shirts and pants, but for the pants there are other options that are half the price and look the same.

There are scales there, and crews do weigh their packs, but there's nothing to stop anyone from hitting the trail with a pack weight they can't handle. That's done by the crew leaders...and far in advance of ever getting to Philmont. The suggestion of not carrying a single-size water vessel that is more than 1 litre is a sound one; even with repair possibilities. You benefit from redundancy in the event that a container is lost, stolen or damaged. Cannot do that with a single large water bag. The individual ones take up less space, so they are easier to organize around other gear. As far as pack volume, our guys are trained to store all personal gear in 1 x 20l compression sack. Sleeping bag goes in a 10l compression sack. That leaves more than half the volume for crew gear. We left our 8qt and 6qt pots at base camp. We boiled water in our 4 qt and simply ate out of the bag. The other half of the crew ate out of sierra cups. After six trips out to Philmont, you find ways to "cheat the system" and reduce weight.

Didn't work last summer for us. Tried several times. His point is well taken, you can lose it, tear it, rip it, puncture it and then what? Never have a single point of failure when it comes to something as important as water. The smaller 1 litre bottles are easier to get to, pack and store as well. The larger ones are more cumbersome. One thing not mentioned is pack size. This plays a big role in how much water you can carry, especially if a few guys have 65l packs and others have 80l. I'd make sure guys have at least 70l packs. Also, make sure they know how to pack for space (compression sacks).

Mentions patches, no medals. If they exist this council should know. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/historic-trail-letoile-du-nord http://www.northernstarbsa.org/historic-trail-1862-us-dakota-war

Agreed. Still, in my mind, asking someone to recite the Outdoor Code from memory (who never had it as a requirement for rank before) would be like asking someone to about one of the new Cooking requirements. I told the district rep he could feel free to ask the question, but if the response is a blank stare, we move on and there's no harm, no foul. Waiting to hear his reply on what he's expecting.

Dry camps mean they have no water source. So you will need to pack all water you need until you reach your next water source. In some cases you need drinking water for the day you are hiking in, water for cooking/cleaning that night, and then MORE water for hiking out the next day. If you are not carrying 4-6 liters person (in some cases) you will need to bring a 2 gallon carrier with you to fill up on your way in. You should be good. While Ponderosa Park is a dry camp, Clark's Fork is not. You can water up in Clark's and carry your 2 gallon carrier to Ponderosa. We did the reverse of this trek last summer. Here's what I suggest: Confirm during the planning session at HQ if Shaefer's Pass has water. Last year the spring there was dry. The closest water was North Fork Urraca (in the river if it is running, if not Miner's Park) or Clark's Fork. You will need LOTS of water to get over the Tooth. If there is water at Schaefers Pass: Get water at Clark's Fork BEFORE you head to Ponderosa Park. Have everyone fill up (4-5 ltrs per person) AND fill up your 2 gallon crew water jug. Make sure everyone has a minimum 3 liters for your hike to Schaefers Pass. Leave early in the AM so you have time to get to Schaefers. Water up at Schaefers. Make sure everyone has ALL water bottles filled. Bring your water carrier filled too. If there is NO water at Schaefers Pass: Get water at Clark's Fork BEFORE you head to Ponderosa Park. Have everyone fill up (4-5 ltrs per person) AND fill up your 2 gallon crew water jug. Make sure everyone has a minimum 3 liters for your hike to Schaefers Pass. Leave early in the AM so you have time to get to Schaefers. Water up at Miner's Park. Make sure everyone has ALL water bottles filled. Bring your water carrier filled too. CONSERVE WATER. You will need a MINIMUM of 3 liters EACH to hike the Tooth ridge line. If it is sunny and hot I'd even add another liter per person. We did a day hike from Schaefers to the Tooth and back with 3 liters per person and still had an issue with one crew member. Carrying full pack is going to be tough...but doable. Leave early and plan for breaks. Lots of breaks. EDIT: Clark's Fork is the "hub" with all the action. Ponderosa Park is a few miles away (trail distance). It is located off a side trail. See the map link above. It is nice, quiet and somewhat remote, but it is a decent distance from Clark's that you will need to time get there. I would recommend calling an "audible" and camping at North Clark's. It is closer to the trail and less of a hike out the next morning.

My read of this is as follows: Scout requests an SMC from SM. Scout completes SMC. SM must contact the TC or Advancement Chair and 1) inform them of the Scout having completed the SMC, and 2) request that they schedule the BOR in a timely manner. Either the TC or Advancement Chair contact the Scout to schedule his BOR. That seems to follow the verbiage in the GTA. This is what we do. We do encourage the Scout to manage this process by contacting these folks to request a BOR, but we do NOT require him to do so AND we hold our BORs once a month so they know when they are. If a Scout is under age pressure we can do BORs for them any time.

It is the troop committee's job -- and specifically the advancement chair -- to grant a BOR as soon as the SMC for rank is complete. The Scout does NOT have to request one. The SM has NO say on when it happens, that's up to the TC Chair or the Advancement Chair to schedule, HOWEVER, the GTA says it should happen as soon as possible. 8.0.0.2 Boards of Review Must Be Granted When Requirements Are Met. A Scout shall not be denied this opportunity. When he believes he has completed all the requirements for a rank, including a Scoutmaster conference, a board of review must be granted. Scoutmasters—or councils or districts in the case of the Eagle Scout rank—for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request or organize one, or to “defer†him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one. In a case where there is concern the Scout has not fulfilled the requirements for a rank as written, it is appropriate to advise the young man that he might not pass the board and to make suggestions about what he might do to improve his chances for success. It is, however, the Scout’s decision to go ahead with a board of review or not.

I wanted to revive this thread, particularly this part highlighted. I just heard from a new district advancement rep that he wants all Eagles to have the Outdoor Code memorized. I cannot recall anywhere, besides the Outdoor Ethics (Action/Awareness) Award where memorizing the code was "required". I get testing a candidate on the Oath, Law, Slogan, Motto. However, the Outdoor Code was never a rank requirements, so testing them on that should be informational at best. Thoughts? Comments?

It this it? If so, a few suggestions: Cathedral Rock is gorgeous. Try to hike through the demonstration forest just north of there if you can. It's in the opposite direction of where you are going, so it depends on where they drop you off. Great photo opportunity at Cathedral Rock. The hike to Clark's Fork is pretty easy and only slightly up hill. Your camp at Ponderosa Park is a good bit from Clark's Fork so you will want to check in with the staff at Clark's to see what they suggest. I might even have your Crew Lead see if you could camp at Clark's that night. You are headed south anyway and camping at Clark's would save you running back and forth. Make sure you get up EARLY to get to Clark's for your horseback ride if you have them in the late afternoon. If you have them in the AM the following morning you are okay. Don't forget your chocolate milk at Miner's Park!! Bears usually in this area too, so be loud. The hike from Clark's Fork to Crater is mostly uphill. You will have some long climbs that day. This would be the day to leave MEGA early because you have your pole climbing that same day. If you miss your pole climbing you might be able to work it in the following morning AFTER your conservation project. You need that for your Arrowhead, so if you have to miss one of these than miss the pole climbing. The campfire the night you arrive is AWESOME. Have video ready because the Tooth is in the background. It is one of my favorite memories of Philmont. The trek from Crater to Urraca is pretty tame. There are a few climbs and a few routes you can take. After you climb the mountain past Bears Cave, it is pretty much down hill to the valley that runs in to Urraca. Make sure you have poles to cross the rivers. The snow pack is pretty good this year so the snow melt should have the rivers high and wet. Going from Urraca to Abreau you will have one steep climb over Toothache Springs, unless you take Stonewall Pass. I would suggest the latter. Once you get through the pass it is pretty flat. Never been to Abreu but it was one of the treks we looked at and I am familiar with the terrain. Abreau to Rayado is flat. Easy hike. Rayado is fun. Be sure to try the blacksmithing if you can. Cool list of Philmont sites on google maps here.

We built a smoker out of an old ammo box like Alton Brown did here. We have patrols lining up to use it on various camp outs. We have a hard enough time getting a truck to pull the trailer, let alone a chuck wagon trailer. Nice idea though.

Amen. It is an easy thing to fix and the impact on volunteers would be immediately felt. I will say they seem to going in the right direction with new sites like Program Resources and Troop Leader. I'd prefer an online library model where finding the docs were a bit easier (search feature, indexed, cross-referenced, etc.).

I know many will deride the source of these two articles (1, 2), but the linkage with the 2015 statement from the LDS about the membership policy change and the recent pull out interesting.

I hear ya. I just couldn't even fathom our DE doing anything beyond filling out JTE sheets. Even our UCs are a bit useless. I just thought others might have a different experience. Frankly, it would be unit to unit relationships that would help in our area the most. District is a self-perpetuating circle of paperwork and back-slapping. We have a list of UCs but I have never seen any in action. I was hoping other areas might be better organized.

I guess we are lucky in this regard. The guys don't see meeting with the SM as a principal's office thing. We have the SPL talk to them first about their first SMC. We do an "intro" SMC where the SPL runs the discussion as a group with the boys, explaining what the SMC is for, etc. Then the SM speaks and tells the guys that they will be brought in one at a time to chat. Over the next week or so we roll the guys through. This seems to be received really well. Only once did a scout get concerned (special needs kid). Having his favorite doughnut at the meeting helped with that.

We had a Scout crossover and bring his alligator sleeping bag. The thing was essentially two blankets sewn together in the color and shape of an alligator. I kid you not. More ironic was the kids came from VERY wealthy parents (think Maserati driving mom and dad), so money and good gear was not an issue. Giving a darn about your kid was the issue. Thankfully, at shake down this was discovered and we loaned him one of several 0F bags we have in the garage.