Col. Flagg

Not a fan for packages at camp. It's only 7 days. One parent sent Fed Ex packages to their son EVERY DAY at camp a few years back. Toys, radios, electronics, etc. Kid went nuts with them. Left the garbage all over the place. Left the toys all over the place. Spoiled. When we get back at the end of summer COH his parents are astounded that their son didn't complete any MBs. How COULD he? He was busy playing (and being forced to pick up) all the toys he was sent all week. The next year they sent him with nothing but clothes, his ten essentials and a book to read: his handbook. Point made.

Again, I don't read anything in the above pages as pointed at anyone. As least, no more than any other thread in this online beauty salon. I hope we don't start talking about "triggers" for Pete's sake.

I didn't realize there was a time limit on First Class. So it takes them 18 months to earn First Class. Why is that an issue worth changing the whole program back for? I must be missing something here too? If LDS units no longer operate over 14 years old, is the push to get them Eagle before 14 now? What's the problem if kids make FC in 18 months. I have several guys that took 18 months to get FC. Several of those were the first to make Eagle from their peer group. I just don't see why we needed to reverse the requirements to allow making FC in one year for one particular group.

Sorry to but in @@Stosh, but the notion that having savings (large, small or medium) equates to promoting a mindset of ambivalence toward financial frugality and a concept of "free money" is ludicrous. The FED and financial managers all over push the concept of savings all over. The ability to pay for things with cash reserves, as opposed to credit, is a GOOD thing. Having money in the bank for a rainy day is a GOOD thing. If you have a large troop that has decent cash reserves (and the audit controls in place) you are being responsible in having reserves to pay for that emergency expense AND giving your Scouts the latitude to take advantage of opportunities that arise. Case in point: Our unit was offered a complete crew slot at a high adventure base late one spring, BUT to take advantage of the deal we had to pay IN FULL, within the week. With our cash reserves we were able to pay the amount, THEN set up the fundraising on how the guys going would pay for it. Our trailer's breaking system needed a complete overhaul (switched to electric breaking system with load leveler). Without the reserve funds we would have had to cancel 2-3 months of camp outs in order to raise the money to repair the trailer. As it was we got the repairs done that week AND the PLC approved a fundraiser to repay the reserve fund. The USS Lexington had an opening due to cancellation. The cost for travel and overnight was $5k and payment needed within the week. Savings paid the cost and the PLC developed a fundraiser which repaid the money plus interest. Under your philosophy, my unit would have missed out on these great adventures. Sorry, but I just don't buy the argument. The troop lives within its means, we just pay for it differently AND the boys learn the value of saving AND repaying the "loans" from their cash reserves. That's called good financial management. If I wanted to ding your approach (and I am not, I am just offering the Devil's Advocate approach), your approach teaches them to live paycheck to paycheck...which it not ideal.

Or explain in a note here. I must be missing something too. Other than cynicism and veiled humor, I don't see anything a miss. I must be getting old.

As long as you know the menu going in, I think that's a GREAT menu. Sure the cooking complexity is a bit high for lunch at camp (with program immediately after), but I have 75 guys that would not complain about being late for a MB class for a good meatball sub.

Why?

So...it appears the nights camping for SC and FC will change...again...back to what it was. According to this article the change will take place on 8/1/17. Stay tuned. More changes sure to come tomorrow if the last two days are any indication.

The pdf is out there. Someone has scanned and uploaded it.

Thanks @@krikkitbot we are looking there next year. How was it managing the cooking chores and still making it to program. Any advice?

We discourage them. Why? All too often mom writes something silly like "We miss you so much, wish you were here." Or puts other things in there that remind the Scout of home and what he's missing, rather than focusing on the positives of camp. Phones also are a no go (another thread) for the very same reason. Never had a case of home sickness last more than an hour since the unit went this route.

No argument from me about adults and bad vehicle practices. We only allow boys to operate the boat *if* we are in a small group, we are working on the MB and there are no state or federal restrictions. If there is one of our swimmers in the water, we follow the USCG guidelines (forget BSA) on picking up swimmers. We do not move an inch until we have eyes on EACH swimmer AND we have a bow lookout confirming our path to the downed skiers. Also, an adult driver is right there ready to hit the engine kill switch.

I don't want to give out too much info because I know some of the folks here are from my area and might know the unit. A few of the issues that needed addressing (not necessarily things this unit did or didn't do) were: Too many people on the boat. Too many distractions for driver and observers. Not enough observers (should be one observer for each person in the water, think boat observer to swimmer buddy system). No established procedures for downed skiers (e.g., who to recover first, how to recover, etc.). Lake overcrowding. Untrained drivers (might know how to drive but not how to drive and recover skiers). Visibility of folks in the water (we now use VERY bright florescent life jackets with strobes). You can't always foresee every scenario, but I'd like to think we can learn from tragedies and take steps to make sure they don't happen again. Sure it's fun, but those responsible and taking part always need to be vigilant while having fun.

We don't allow it. We make sure an adult with proper training is driving and that we have one look out per Scout in the water, never exceeding two Scouts. Reason? A local troop had a water fatality a few years back and several gaps in the BSA aquatics guide would have prevented that tragedy. So now we overkill on safety, observation, training and operations of water craft.

Just like getting your national camp certification is important to some camps, maybe having this issue flagged for council demonstrates their attention to detail. If they miss this what's next? Lack of water front coverage? Improper records for climbing gear maintenance? Dinning hall health violations? I have sympathy because I have worked at and run a camp before. I have friends that run council camps now and see all the crud they deal with to maintain their rating, so it is unfair to look the other way when a council clearly violates one of the easiest things to police. I'd simply like to see the incident be reported and the council take steps to make sure that they never set a range up like that again. One has to wonder if they missed something as simple as this, what other corners are they cutting? Maybe none. Maybe many. One never knows until you shine the light under the stove how many roaches you have....if any.

On this we agree. Get rid of them related to Eagle and simply move them to "extra award" category @@DadScouts suggests. Removing the old requirements literally removes them from anything having to do with Eagle or leadership for those palms earned before Eagle. OR, simply not allow anyone to earn EAGLE palms until they ARE Eagle. Star palms, anyone?

@@Stosh, you just described many kids I know who had 3-5 palms prior to this silly change. They maybe got 1 or 2 palms before 18, but were fully engaged in Scouting and a ton of other stuff. After 8/1/17 such Scouts get all their palms at once. What message does that send to the guys who got palms before? They had to EARN them with activity AND leadership. This new approach gives the palms away and cheapens them even further. I'm fine with the change, let's just put that (*) next to their palms so folks know how they were "earned".

Yes, but the point being that a guy who had 5 palms done before Eagle no longer has to stick around to earn them with additional leadership and activity. Just pop in your quarter and get Eagle + 5 palms. Ludicrous!

Change "not following the range rules" to "not following YPT" or "not following age matrix" or "not following climbing safety rules" and tell me if this argument still holds water. Council event. Council property. Council responsibility. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

So we don't hold a council's feet to the fire to follow the shooting sports manual for range safety? That makes no sense.

@@Stosh, the way I read the new rule: Guys who make Eagle AND have any palms completed will get those palms and Eagle at their ECOH. Guys who make Eagle and DON'T have any palms completed, still need to follow the regular three month guidelines, with expanded roles for leadership, etc. So if a Scout had 5 palms and Eagle all by his ECOH he get all of that right away, rather than being forced to stick around for 15 months, take additional leadership positions and continue to be active in his unit. No matter how you slice it, the unit now has to create an incentive for him to stick around.

I wonder, but does BSA talk to anyone in the real world of Scouting before they make these changes? Do they talk to SMs and others to see how palms are earned and/or what impact the old system had on keeping Scouts around, versus this approach?

Bingo!

I think the point is that if the range violated the shooting sports guidelines that the chance of a kid aiming 30 degrees right (on purpose or not) is a lot higher than if the parking lot is 180 degrees from down range. Can all those other things break windows? Sure. But the liklihood of a stray BB making it in to a lot adjacent to a range is much higher than if proper layout was followed. It does bear investigation.

Exactly! I live with an Eagle from 2016. Could have gotten 3 palms but in the end his own procrastination prevented earning them. It was a great life lesson for him that, despite holding leadership positions are earning MBs after finishing Eagle, he left something on the table. He realized his procrastination was a problem and is working to fix it. Why? Because he remembers the lesson he learned NOT getting his three Eagle Palms. This is BSA's version of a participation trophy. Only BSA could make something like Eagle Palms worth less than the Scout rank.