Col. Flagg

Well....I would argue that questioning the decision now might arm someone reading this with the information that might keep them, or someone they know, from doing the same thing. I can tell you several units in my area immediately started keeping track of trailer weight and the towing capacity of all their trucks. I wouldn't say we are passing judgement or anything. Just asking safety questions where we can learn after the fact. Even the NTSB does that...and it is helpful.

You mean Donner was wrong???

We actually don't allow books to be signed by camp staff. Our Instructors hold a session at the end of the day where the first year Scouts demonstrate what they learned. If they know it, book gets signed. If they don't, it is re-taught until they can demonstrate it (EDGE) then book gets signed. Re/ MBs signed but not earned, there's a section in the GTA for that and we use it. If you could not possibly have done the requirements we don't award it. Case in point, I was told by a Scout last night that he got Cooking done at camp. Impossible!!! Yet he has a signed blue card.

I'm not sure Barry. I live in North Texas now and have camped in the panhandle during winter in some pretty chilly sub-zero temps. I'd venture when those clippers come down from Canada and bottom out along the Red River, it's a site darn colder than DC ever gets.

Well, I was Navy I'd want to get that darn cover off my head as fast as possible!!!

Nope. DC area. We had a "institutional green" bus. Took out the last few rows for gear. That bus went everywhere. Drove to Philmont among other places. Summer was hot, winter was freezing. Some how we didn't die and turned out alright.

Well, we as Scouters should always question things when they involve safety. If someone is afraid to speak up just to avoid hurting someone's feelings, you never know the consequences. I think it is fair game to question the towing capacity of the vehicle, the need for such a long trailer, carrying Scouts with such a burdensome load and anything else that could have reduced the risk here (e.g., ensuring everyone was wearing seat belts).

All I can find is this. Headgear Regulations Official headgear may be worn while the unit or individual is participating in an indoor formal ceremony or service duty, except in religious institutions where custom forbids. Typical indoor activities of this type are flag ceremonies, inspections, orderly duty, or ushering service. In any informal indoor activity where no official ceremony is involved, the headgear is removed as when in street clothes. The Scouter dress uniform is always worn without headgear. For me that wording is a bit vague. "As when in street clothes" is confusing. Why not just say "remove head gear all other times"? Our unit suggests that guys not wear hats in doors unless part of a ceremony.

You mean Leadership Corps? We had JASMs and LC. Those guys were the bad a$$ Scouts. They could build a shelter from a match box and make you omelettes from water, grass and some seeds. At least that's how I remember them. My old SM (may he rest in peace) used those guys like a Seal Team when he needed something done. Those guys were operators!!!

No one is saying there are not outdoorsy women out there. Of course there are...and ones that can likely kick the butts of many of us here. The problem is supply. It is hard enough to find MEN who are outdoorsy enough and patient enough to allow the patrol method to take root and grow. Now we'd have to find enough WOMEN who can do the same? I live in a major metro area. We have TWO female ASMs and we are VERY accommodating to having them. I have two in our Crew two (different women). But we had to search far and wide to get those four. Imagine having to staff up a troop or pack with an equal number of female leaders as male leaders just to cover ratios, two-deep and male/female engagement! Venturing Advisors know what I mean. It is hard enough in a small crew, imagine a troop of 75 scouts!!

My troop had one growing up. My dad was the TC chair. Between getting enough drivers to get their special license, state regulation, regular maintenance and a few other issues, he said it was a great idea but quite laborious to maintain. In the end it was simply easier to beg for drivers and tow a trailer.

Yes, BUT they are not out there in the quantity needed for a national roll out of coed Scouting. It was hard enough to find them for my Venturing Crew, now I have to find them for my Cub Scout Pack or Scout Troop? Oh, and I don't need just one, I need SEVERAL because I cannot take any girls anywhere if the single lone female leader has something else to do. Let's face it, for coed to be successful units will need to recruit nearly as many adult women as they do adult men. The potential pool for female volunteers willing to get trained and invest the time needs to be HUGE in order to cover the units out there.

I have to agree...and @@backpack is right. I use my JASMs more than my ASMs. Some of the ASMs are just worthless. However, my JASMs are guys I can count on to be up early, proactively look around for ways to help, monitor situations, offer guidance and advice when needed and to be the "big brother" to all Scouts. They've been the best tool I've had as SM.

BSA does not address such key issues because they don't know how. Their answer to everything is to tinker with membership or rank advancement or other such nonsense. It's akin to arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I think many of us would applaud if BSA just did what they are paid to do: Provide us the tools to develop a quality program, with minimal resources and time investment.

I have four Eagle due for EBORs who have pulled their applications for AFTER 8/1/17 as a result of this announcement.

Interesting link from the national SE. Interesting approach one CO is taking to "align" their Scouting units.

I don't think I am expressing my position clearly: Old Rule Palms only given after Eagle awarded. Scout needed to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. This meant they had to be active, provide leadership and have an SMC and BOR for six months after their EBOR in order to get their two palms. New Rule Palms given now same time as Eagle. Scout no longer has to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. Rather than get another six months of leadership and activity from this Scout, he only needs to meet the post-Eagle plam requirements if he wants more than two palms. * Our troop required a leadership position or a clear delineation of how leadership would be demonstrated in order to qualify for palms. The SM met with Eagles to determine if they wanted a leadership role or how they would meet this requirement. It is documented and then evaluated as we would a POR. So we agree that AFTER Eagle is awarded, there is little difference in who the palms are awarded. But I essentially lose six months of activity and leadership from this hypothetical Scout which was previously required. That's not a positive change. That's giving an award for going to MB class. Nothing more.

In our troop you needed to be active and hold a leadership role (usually JASM). So you couldn't just be registered, convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get your badges (which is what the new systems allows pre-Eagle). The new system literally gives them an award for getting MBs. The old system required them to be active and hold a leader position. Now, if some troops did not the Eagles' feet to the fire and simply handed them out, that's their problem. Our Eagle worked for their palms. Now they just get a trophy, er, palm for doing nothing more. I'd rather they call the MB palms because they have nothing to do with Eagle anymore.

If that's what they do then fine. But don't call them "Eagle Palms" and don't affix them to the Eagle medal. Call them MB Palms.

That's been their model of decision-making since 2013, that's for sure! Looking at what you say their approach has been historically (recently) I'd say it is time to toss it out the window and get a new one. With continued historic membership losses, they need to rethink their model. It is far cheaper and easier to retain current members then it is to go out and get new ones. That's Business 101. I think ALL of us are surprised they don't reach out more to established members. I suspect it is because they are so overly concerned about "growth" they don't see "retention" as a strategy to steaming decline. It could also be that the DE's are so poorly paid that you really don't have the best people in those roles; folks who understand product and membership marketing. I think you are right in your assumption BSA seems growth in to new markets and areas as their only way to steam back the decline. I think this is a fatal flaw in their business decisions. Ticking off their core membership is another. I would agree. My big problem is that they hold these "town halls" and ask for opinions from those very members...and then go off and do their own thing (usually the opposite of what those folks wanted) anyway. Very frustrating!

Trenches? Don't need to say any more. If you were there, you'd know.

As @@qwazse pointed out, when has BSA done this? They usually know which direction they want to go, but first they test the waters with a survey, have some "meetings" and then do the opposite of what the majority suggest. Why do we suddenly expect they will alter their mode of operation now?

Only if the TC chair spoke to the SM about enforcing the boy-led approach. Never directly with the boys.

At Philmont last year we were lucky to run everything through their laundry before departure. The one guys who said he washed his clothes (but didn't) had his pack strapped to the top of the truck. The Crew Lead insisted on fully laundered clothes and showered bodies for the ride home. Good man!

Depends. Inside the DFW area most of the yuppie adults drive Infinity or Lexus...and nothing that will hold or haul anything of consequence. I have the Tundra 1794 Edition so I can haul or hold most stuff. Have a Sequoia as back up. If you drove through OK you'd see more pick ups...but smaller.