thrifty

I think everyone has great input. It shows that this program that we all believe in means different things to many of us. How great is that? BSA can represent so many things and accomplish so many things. I especially agree with Eagledad. I just wish everyone could get their crap together and make it all work. this is kind of where I'm coming from. To me, the only significant difference between scouting and other youth programs is camping. The BSA should really have more of a media presence. I'm sure they're probably worried about more negative press but we see scouts do great things like save lives or help clean up after a hurricane and it deserves more attention. Prepared. For Life. I really love that slogan. Isn't that what we hope to accomplish? We always hear about how many presidents or astronauts have been in scouting. I want to know how many doctors or EMTs were scouts. I want to know how many firemen or policemen were scouts. Maybe it's a lot, maybe it's not. Either way it's something to think about. Those are just a few examples, there are probably better ones.

I think character and leadership are important and should be emphasized as well but that's not why my son is in scouts. Everyone's different and views the BSA differently. The way I see it, he could be in other programs that offer some kind of leadership opportunity and I like to think that his parents can take care of the character aspect. I don't want his SM to be a role model. Isn't building character a selling point for every youth related program?

Are our sons in the same troop? I found this site. Click on the scout skill videos. I imagine that's what fun patrols do at meetings. Not lots of paperwork. I showed it to my son. Maybe he'll use it but he doesn't want to be PL again so probably not. http://www.programresources.org/ BSA definitely needs to do some kind of fun cool marketing but honestly it doesn't matter if boys join and then don't get the promised adventures.

I don't want to de-rail the thread and what cchoat is hoping to accomplish. This is mostly rhetorical. Why do they call it summer camp? How boring is that? If we have High Adventure camps, why wouldn't summer camp be Adventure Camp? Sounds more fun to me.

I agree. So from my perspective as a parent, someone would need to find a way to convince me that this is a better choice. I think someone would also need a way to sell the changes to scout masters that are advancement oriented. Maybe this is jumping ahead with regards to your thesis but even if you could snap your fingers and change summer camp tomorrow, wouldn't these people I've mentioned just go to a different one? Just because it's a good idea to many people doesn't mean that it would be effective. You could end up with nothing but lower summer camp attendance. I think there has to be an effort to change and inform peoples perspectives along with any summer camp changes. Maybe I'm wrong and there aren't as many advancement goal oriented parents and leaders as I suspect.

LOL. Such a great line. Thanks. I've added it to my binder of info next to "BSA says be prepared. It doesn't say anything about be efficient."

I agree with what you have. I sat in an out-of-council meeting in another part of my state a year ago and heard a leader (not sure of title) discussing this same issue. It seems that everyone is aware of the problem but doesn't want to fix it or is afraid to. It's been mentioned on this site plenty of times. Below are a few random thoughts that are on more of a personal and parental level. They may not address your thesis directly but maybe they will offer a different perspective. I would guess that camps can feel pressure to provide more completed badges based on the below. : It's not only parents or scouts that have high expectations but many scout masters that emphasize the same thing. To achieve Eagle rank scouts need badges and rank advancement. If leadership's goal is to push everyone to the finish line as quickly as possible, you're going to have emphasis on badges. Partial badges are frowned upon. I know a scout is supposed to work on badges independently but some troops rely on the scout going to camp each year to accomplish the required badges. A scout may not have any badges or just one or two if he has not attended summer camp every year. If rank advancement is the troop’s goal, the leadership will want a camp that covers as many badges as possible because it’s easiest. Merit badge counselors are not always easy to find outside of camp either. Our scout's first year at camp, the wife and I had never heard of prerequisites or partials. The only badge he had earned before his first year at camp was Fingerprinting. He crossed over and there was a real learning curve for us as parents. There was no info from troop leadership regarding any of this. He went to a different camp his second year and they provided more info in their paperwork. Parents need to be aware that badges will not be completed or require additional work ahead of time in the camp literature. I know people don't always read the paperwork but at least tell them. For the past few years, the troop decided to go to a summer camp that costs approx. $500 when you add in fuel for drivers. That's a lot of money to us and many other people. I am not paying $500 for my son to have a personal vacation. Right or wrong, I expect some kind of return on my investment. I would assume that many parents feel the same way and have not been told how merit badges work so that leads to disappointment and frustration. We have families with multiple scouts going to camp. It can get expensive and then the workshops are taught by teens or the camp runs out of supplies. FYI – it appears you have a typo. “It puts the onus on the Camp Director to certify that these standards are met, and that all badges earned where earned in compliance with the Guide to Advancementâ€

In our troop, parents have zero say on where summer camp will be. The scouts are supposed to make that decision but in reality leadership strongly influences the decision making process. Don't know if it would work but I really like this idea. The scouts would still be accomplishing their requirements and hopefully have more fun in a less structured setting. They would just need to meet with a local badge counselor willing to sign off on things they did at camp.

I'm most amazed that you guys still have public phone booths but what a fun event! I did a similar thing as a team building exercise for a previous employer. That was twenty years ago and I still think of it fondly. I'm curious, how long does the event last? If the scouts are running around town I would think it has to be several hours. Wish I could get our troop to try stuff like this.

I would consider myself a big Star Wars fan. Myself and my friends are happy to have more SW fans regardless of whether they are male or female. Maybe geeks would find it easier to get a date. Also, the girl scouts in our area have been doing pinewood derbies for many years. I don't know how it started but they get their cars weighed and they are invited to our CO to use our track after our event is over. They put just as much effort into their cars and they look great. They're not dolls! They're action figures! Such a mom thing to say.

Expectations for certain roles should be higher. Each scout should be asking themselves how can I make the position better or help improve the troop. The most recent librarian was a no-show for most meetings. We do elections once a year and my son is already thinking about the librarian role. He's been PL twice and APL once. He won't be able to go on some of the campouts so this position works better for him. Yes, it will be less work than a PL position but that doesn't mean it is a lazy position. He's already got ideas to promote his being given that position. Making an inventory of all scout books, making pdf files of scout books (because we never have enough), maybe buying new books (because many of ours are old), etc... And he's actually at the meetings so he can pass out books and create a log to keep track of them. We previously had a scribe that didn't take notes. Our most recent scribe, an older scout, does a fantastic job taking meeting notes and tracking attendance and then emails it to an adult for posting on our website. The last scribe was just too young and I don't think he had anyone helping him. I was told that our most recent historian was volun-told to do the position. (ASM's son) He didn't want it and was very vocal about it. He didn't even own a camera. Not a single picture of a campout was taken. The historian prior to him took pictures on every campout. These were then posted to the troop website for parents to see and really help to keep the parents engaged. Just because a scout position doesn't require a direct leadership role, the position can still require responsibility and help the scout and troop grow.

Don't know anything about this event but I was at an awards ceremony where someone had attached several old event patches to each table centerpiece. The patches had nothing to do with the ceremony and were obviously old overstock but I thought it was a great idea. It instantly made the centerpiece a scout centerpiece. What I would do is put one of each patch on an "event" blanket, like a troop blanket. Even if you don't have a patch for each year, you can pull out the blanket and hang it up somewhere or put it on a table to symbolize the great fun and memories that have been had over the past "XX" years and the fun that will happen at the current event. Encourage people to come up and check it out. Or if it's just a few patches put them in a cheap frame. None of this has to be expensive and you are adding to the tradition of the event because a new patch can be added to the blanket each year. If each patch is different, this should look really cool. At events throw them in a cardboard box with the word FREE on it, encourage people that they can take them and the patches should disappear either by scouts or adults. Depending on how many patches, maybe give them to one or more cub scout packs to do some kind of crafts. Is there any kind of Halloween event where the scouts would receive candy? Throw the patches in with the candy. Doesn't matter if the scouts were not at the event, maybe they'll just enjoy getting a patch with their M&Ms. Put a picture on craigslist for free and I'm sure they will disappear. These ideas are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are lots of other great uses for them. I don't see any reason to throw them away but no reason to hoard them either.

Never did the Tiger program so can't comment on that age but our cubscouts and webelos always met on Tues.at 7pm. My scout usually complained about being tired and did not want to go but once we got there, he was a ball of energy with the other scouts and was begging to stay when it was over. As parents, we preferred the weekday evening because it did not take away our hard earned weekend. Our scout troop at another church meets the same time and date because everyone crosses over from that pack. We've known that Tues. at 7pm is booked for the past six years. Why not poll the parents of wolf or bear and see what they think? Now that they've been through a year or two, they may have some incite and agree a change should be made or recommend to keep what you've got.

Great idea That description would fit our troop. The arrowmen wear their sash and patch but there is no talk about OA except at election time. No one accept the members know anything about it. It comes off as more of a secret society/fraternity. I don't know but would bet that our arrowmen are rarely at any OA event. I sat in on the OA presentation this year so that I could learn more. I realize this is for the scouts but is it deliberately brief and vague? From what I can recall, there was little or no talk about service, how OA worked or even what the ordeal was. Rant: My son was up for OA this past election and I wanted to know details. I walked out of the OA presentation amazed that there was literally no info given. I did my own research online to find out what fees or time were involved with OA. I'm not a helicopter parent but my scout was only twelve at the time. He can't drive himself to the ordeal or OA meetings. The troop attends summer camp outside of our council so the ordeal had to be at a later date. It's my time as much as it is his to drive a few hours for a meeting or camping.

My scout and our family have felt similar towards the meetings for a while now. He's been doing this for a few years. We're involved parents, we like to know how the meetings went and it gives us something to talk about together. Most of the time he'd say everyone just socialized and didn't even usually talk about scout stuff. Sure, there are some meetings when campout planning is done but poor planning is sometimes another problem. Things aren't as well defined and smooth as I think some other posters in this forum have with their troops. He's in a leadership position now and I always try to encourage him to do above and beyond what someone else may have done as leader if he wants. He doesn't have to be stuck in an endless cycle of repetition but he's already defeated and says why should he bother when no one else will follow through. He's not far from Eagle and he's got several years until 18 but the whole family is wondering why he should go to a weekly meeting that accomplishes nothing and he's not learning or growing from it (with some exceptions). I feel that there are a lot of lost opportunities and the boys are missing out on some things by just going through the motions. Maybe a different troop would be better but my son's friends are still in this one.

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything Eagledad posted.

we only have COH twice a year. MB's and Rank patches, along with any other misc awards, are handed out at that time. It's understood that a scout has earned his rank after the BOR or MB when the blue card is completed and turned in. My son is a Star scout now working on Life requirements but has a First Class patch on the uniform. He won't receive the Star patch until Sept or Oct because the COH isn't even scheduled yet to my knowledge. He may have the Life requirements done by Dec or Jan and wait until April for that patch. Once or twice a scout in the troop has received two rank patches at the COH. ex: Star and Life. Don't know about anyone else's COH but the parents are there and we have food. It's an awards ceremony. Parents like to see their scouts go up and receive the MBs. The scouts give out the Mother pins for rank advancement (should be father pins too). Scout rank has little impact in our troop with or without the patch so no one is concerned about getting it immediately. I don't know why we do it this way, it just is. We do not hold MBs for missing the COH but most scouts that care about the patches are there to receive them. Usually the un-awarded patches float around for a few weeks or months until the scouts in question decide to show up to a meeting. I do not know of any patches our troop has held due to outstanding fees but I do know we have had scouts leave owing the troop money and as Eagle94 posted earlier, the costs start to add up.

I would debate with you about sewing being a great skill but that's not the intention of this thread (pun intended). I was taught sewing in home economics class back in the 6th grade and in the decades that have passed I have only used it to sew on an occasional button or my son's patches. I'm not saying its worthless but I would rate it lower than many of my other skills I use daily or weekly. The wife doesn't sew at all. I can also say that at least all of my son's patches are on his uniform and easily updated unlike many of the others in the troop. Funny, CC (middle age mother of two if it makes any difference) was just at my house last night and complained about the sewing. Scouts have gone into BOR with wrong ranks and offices because they didn't want to be bothered with the patches. I also don't like the patch area of the shirt after patches have been sewn and removed several times for officer or rank. IMO it weakens those areas greatly, not that it matters a lot.

No one mentioned Velcro. Am I the only one to use Velcro on my son's khaki uniform? Love it. I've never found blue but the tan works perfectly for his bsa uniform and we trim it to fit the badges so it's not very visible to begin with. Not a big square like the military. With the different scout ranks, patrols and troop leadership positions, the patches could constantly change. We put the soft part on the uniform and the hooked part on the patches. When my son advances a rank it's easy to just pull off the old one with a quick rip. Trim the self adhesive Velcro to fit the back of the new patch, apply a little pressure and stick the new one to the uniform. He's smaller and he just outgrew his first khaki shirt. His newest shirt has Velcro for every patch. He'll probably outgrow at least one more shirt so this way we can just pull off all the patches and stick them on the next size. Our council will also be changing names in the near future and changing that patch will be easier now. He's never lost a patch on trips and camping. The uniform is washed with the patches on and nothing has ever come off. We use Velcro Brand Sticky Back for Fabrics 6"x4" beige tape. It's found in our local craft stores and worth every penny. It might take more than one to do a lot of patches but we save the smaller clippings and use those too. It will not be possible to ever remove the soft Velcro from the uniform. It becomes permanently glued on but if you trim the stuff to patch size, if you donated the uniform to someone else and they wanted to sew patches on, the Velcro would be covered anyway. Merit badges are still sewn to the sash.

I've always enjoyed seeing scouts from different troops together. Even troops from the same district usually have unique features that set them apart with the patches, summer camp awards and neckerchiefs. Was at a recent NYLT meeting and several boys from the same troop had bright red neckers and their long sleeved undershirts were the same shade. It was enough boys to assume that maybe the whole troop had thermal shirts that matched the neckers. Our troops necker was discontinued so SM suggested the troop use a larger solid color cotton fabric. The idea was that it could function as a sling or bandage, etc.. where the store bought neckerchief is a bit smaller. It's also cheaper to make our own. No embroidery and it's a dull olive green but I don't think anyone cares. The scouts make their own turk's head woggle with paracord. Seems to function better than the metal slides and has the added benefit of being multi-functional paracord and we can coordinate the color with the necker. It's nice to have a multi-purpose necker and woggle but on the other hand, our troop only wears class A every other meeting, BOR, COH, trips and misc. The uniforms come off as soon as the tents goes up. The likelihood that the necker would ever actually be used as intended seems extremely small for us. I doubt the scouts would even remember the woggle around their neck is paracord. I get the impression that the boys tolerate the necker but don't really care for it and take them off as soon as possible.

thanks for the responses. NJCubScouter, it just caught me off guard because that was not what was explained to me in the past. I was under the impression that any boy that met rank/age requirements had an opportunity to run for a position. This does not seem to be the case and in fact, could exclude boys from the chance depending on their popularity in the troop. Much like our nation, it doesn't seem like it would foster collaborative thinking between different people either. I typed PLC in a rush and meant PL. My son has previously been PL for one group and is currently APL and Den Chief. I'm not concerned about him. But his patrol is only 5 boys. Only the PL and my son are qualified to lead based on the requirements. I expect the current PL to be assigned (oops I mean appointed) to a higher position that will be vacant. If PLs and APLs can only come from within their specific patrol, that means that only my son can be PL. That would also leave a PL and someone to be APL with two scouts in the patrol. I guess I don't understand the reason patrols are set in stone and other boys don't have an opportunity to lead even though they have the qualifications but might have more competition in their patrols. Also, re-organizing patrols to be more even seems logical to me but that's not my concern here. What is the point in having a QM that never goes on campouts or a ASPL that has a job and can never make it to meetings? We've had that problem, so again, it seems logical to have boys that want the position and are "hungry" for it. I was in scouts but never a boy scout. I was in 4H. Don't know how it works now but all positions were elected. Every group or organization I've ever been affiliated with has had elected positions except for my job. As stated, this comes as a real surprise and contradicts my previous understanding.

Looking for some insight with regards to troop elections. I've never had the opportunity to witness the process and only know what I was told about last year. Last year, if someone wanted to run for a position, they stood up and explained why they felt they were best for it and that process was repeated for anyone interested in any position. The troop voted by ballot. end of story. The troop was smaller last year. This year, I'm told that SPL will be voted on but SPL basically selects APL. The patrols can vote for a PLC only within the patrol. My concern here is that a boy only has one opportunity within his patrol to be voted PLC instead of several opportunities to be voted a PLC depending on how many patrols there are. For instance, we have three small patrols. So instead of three positions that a boy may be voted for, it is only one. A Patrol can keep the same PLC they already have. A patrol is approx five to seven boys. SPL decides and appoints who will be quartermaster, scribe, etc... Same with OA. Why is this not voted on or if it is voted on, seems to be just a formality? Most positions must be at least 2nd year, SPL must be at least 3rd year. Scouts may be nominated for a position even if they don't want it. Scoutmaster is involved throughout the process. I may be missing or misunderstanding something but this has got to be one of the biggest complaints I have about BSA so far. Why are people appointed versus being voted for? This is not what I expected and does not seem to be much of an election process. Please fill me in because this surprises me and I do not like it.

Do you have a pinewood derby track? if so, set it up and put out a few old cars for people to race. If not, could still put out some derby cards to look at. If no cars, you could do some sort of pinewood blue prints that boys could color designs on with crayons as a take away. Our BSA troop has a nice slide show running on the wall showing great pics from the previous year. That way parents don't have to imagine things. They can see summer camp pics and how much fun the boys are having. Do you have examples of any crafts the boys have done? set them out for all to see but be aware they may not be intact by the end of the night. games, songs and skits are always fun. IMO simple jokes that a young mind would understand are a good way to break the ice. As an adult, I have always enjoyed the story of the unknown scout.

there was a brief woodbadge ceremony for two of our asm's at our CoH last year. They took a few minutes after the boys awards were done. I think its important to recognize the accomplishments and time that the asm's have put into scouts. It also explained some of the traditions and embarrassed them by singing but was fun for the boys. Many of the parents have no involvement with the troop and my feeling is that it showed them that the troop takes effort of volunteers to keep going. I would hope that our troop does this again when ready.

We had a meeting last week about several councils in our state merging. One of the explanations for this was because UW had decreased funds to scouting significantly. Because of this and other problems, some councils are unable to support themselves. UW wasn't blamed for the merging. I got the impression that the UW changes had been recent but after reading everyone else's posts, they may have been in the past and were only mentioned as an example.