The Latin Scot

So here's what I have found so far (a number of people have not yet responded): So far, none of the people from my district that have replied to my inquiries have heard about this (and we are by far one of the biggest and most influential districts in our council). The one person from the Council office who had heard about this pointed out a key part of the message that I feel rather foolish for not noticing myself: What I was told by my friend at the Council office is that they are assessing, as in they are exploring the possibility of, a filing fee, and that such a fee may even be optional if the boys do not want the gift set. But so far nothing is definite, nothing is official. As noted, logistics of such a move are being worked out. Mind you all, I am still waiting to hear from my contacts that are highest up on the totem pole, as it were, but so far there isn't much off of which to go. Interestingly, there is no name attached to this message either. @hikeoholic, are you here in the OCC too? From whom did you get this message? If it would be easier for you to private message me, I would like to follow the source to get more information if possible. I work with a lot of boys from impoverished families working to get their Eagles, and this kind of move would severely handicap their progress, so if you would let me know exactly whence this message came, it would help me in my investigation. Thanks!

I have heard nothing about this, and I am SURE it's something that would be talked about if it were true. I have just sent out a few e-mails to various friends at the OC office. I should have a concrete answer by tomorrow; however, I have to go run my den meeting and the a committee meeting, so I will be offline for the rest of the night. I will bring you all official news direct from the source in OC first thing tomorrow morning!

I totally concur! The very idea of charging a boy to submit his paperwork is suspect - and my thought it, what would they do if a boy refused to pay such a fee? Would they dare deny him his right to submit his papers, despite his having done all the work? I feel like this is the kind of situation where a well-organized boycott may actually do some good. Something at least to get that council to realize the preposterous nature of their demands.

That sub reddit is wrong. I am IN Orange County Council, and if you read my post earlier in this thread, you will see there is no such fee being charged here.

Wow ... I have never heard of an Eagle application fee before. Our council actually sends every new Eagle Scout a packet with his new patch, a few congratulatory letters, and information for an Eagle Scout photo opp - all completely free (including cost of photos). To charge boys for all of that sounds crazy to me.

At the same time, our troop of only a few boys had a push to go back to the book and follow it more closely, and it has helped strengthen the unit and the boys tremendously. It's not as much the book itself as how you use it.

Give your son a few options, and ask what he would like to do. He should talk to his SM about the matter, and see what he recommends. He could just keep calling and e-mailing the MBC, even if it takes a few calls a day to get him to respond. He could ask his SM for the information of an alternative MBC, to whom he could then explain his situation and request the requirements be signed off anew. He could (if you have the address and the means) even drop by the home of the MBC to request some help expediting the process. Talk to your son, and see how he wants to proceed. Waiting as long as your MBC has is pretty inconsiderate, but extenuating circumstances may be in play that nobody knows about. In any case, persistence is the most important thing to suggest.

Wow, I WISH we had a bugler in our Troop! We have a boy who is decent enough at the trumpet though, so I just need to find a way to translate that skill to adding bugle calls to our activities. Any ideas welcome!

I had that very issue last year; for about 5 months I only had two boys. But I didn't let that stop me! I put in the same energy and excitement with those two as I would have with a full den (maybe even more so!), and I made sure never to bring up our low numbers - if you don't bring it up, the boys don't stop to think about it. Sure, we had to modify some activities, but I never let the room "feel empty." We also did a few more combined games and activities with the Bear den and the new Scout patrol that meet at the same time in our building, but for the most part, it looked just the same as an AofL program would have looked like with 8 boys - there were just, well, fewer bodies is all. After a few months, the boys started bringing a friend to Scout here, or a happy parent would recommend my den to another parent there, and we went from 2 boys to 8 in just two months! If you put your heart into the program, the program will grow. The immediate recognition of awards is one of the things the families in our Pack enjoy most. It definitely encourages boys and families to stay involved! And parents are much more willing to work on adventure requirements at home, because they know they will see the fruits of their labors immediately. It's very encouraging for everybody, so I highly recommend trying it!

I would like too, but it's still too early to tell.

@Thunderbird Amen to that. What goes on with the Webelos sets a precedent for all the younger Scouts in a Pack. Technically, the Den Leader guides recommend that no Scout should ever wait more than TWO WEEKS to be recognized for an award he has earned. I take it that includes ranks, like the Arrow of Light. There is solid pedagogical reasoning behind it, and as a Child Development specialist, I fully grasp why - kids lose interest in awards systems quickly if the awards never come. Making a child wait longer than two weeks is basically a guarantee that they will lose interest in the system, and eventually, the program.

I always try to use friendly questions to encourage the person to reflect a little on what they are doing and representing in these kind of situations. A sample of a conversation I had recently: Me: "Hey Mr. Wilikers, (name has been changed) I didn't know you were registered as a new Scout leader!" Him: "Oh I'm not actually yet." Me: "But you have a new uniform on! Aren't you only supposed to wear the uniform if you are officially registered with the BSA?" (asked sincerely, and with a big smile) Him: "Oh, I just thought it would be fun to wear one I guess." Me: "Is that why you have all those goofy patches in the wrong places? The boys in my den were confused about them, and I didn't know what to tell them. How would you explain them to my boys? I gotta tell them something." (sincerely inquisitive and slightly concerned face) Him: "Well ....." (insert lame excuse here) Funny enough, while it seems trite, a conversation like this never actually accuses him of anything, and technically, I am never actually telling him he is doing something wrong. But the questions allow him to consider both his actions and the ramifications of the example he is setting, all while avoiding any actual criticisms. This line of conversation always works for me; give it a try and see if you have any more success!

Incidentally, if you have a Scout who has completed his requirements and is ready to move on, talk with your leadership and see if they can award him his rank sooner rather than waiting around for the others. It's false to believe that boys have to wait to earn it all together at the end of the School year, and as a parent, you have the right to a say in your son's advancement.

In my Pack, boys advance by birthday, and we go year-round - there's no summer break, and we ignore the School year calendar. So, if a boy turns 10 in March, he becomes a Webelos Scout, and when he turns 11 he advances to the Troop chartered by our same congregation. As the Webelos Den Leader, I make sure that when a boy earns his Arrow of Light, he receives it at the very next monthly Pack Meeting - I don't wait around for other boys to earn it. So, if the boy who turned 10 in March competes the requirements in November, then that's when I award him his AofL. That means his bridging ceremony is done separately from the AofL in February or March. Almost all of my boys finish the AofL a few months before they turn 11 and cross over, so we have AofL ceremonies and bridging ceremonies happening year-round. Families tend to be much happier, there's no waiting around for Scouts who are taking longer, and the boys get a constant stream of exciting ceremonies to look forward to. I think it works far better than the School-year model which seems to cause so many people so much grief.

I don't believe culture is something that can be "owned." It's a dangerous path, claiming that something as broad and esoteric as culture can be owned and dictated by one group of people. That's one of the primary issues challenging society today - the idea that cultural ideas, artistic expression, or symbolic representation can "belong" to somebody, or even more challenging, to a group - and who, pray tell, determines who can or cannot belong to that group? I am not talking about race, mind you - although some have trouble distinguishing between the two. But my parents come from two very distinct and different cultures, and I know first-hand what kind of problems can arise when people try to take possession of cultural elements in an attempt to preserve or protect cultural identity. It's possible to share in elements of a people's culture without doing so offensively, and if people do take offense, that is their choice - but that should not give them the right to legislate the first group's freedom to include those elements in their activities if that is their wish. To claim that a group "owns" such things is both unwise and unjust - and sets a dangerous precedent that can be turned against them in unexpected ways.

Admittedly, they have announced many times that there won't be any official information on the girls' program (including its name) until 2019 - they still have the better part of a year to figure it out. But even if this article had never come out, the fact is that there is still a lot of uncertainty as to what's going to happen with it. A year is still not a lot of time to create a whole new program that is at once tailored towards girl's development and yet meets the same criteria required to earn them their Eagles in a manner that's legitimately "equal but different.' They haven't given themselves enough time for trial and error, and I foresee that coming back to bite them hard. I have watched all of Surbaugh's web presentations and "town hall" meeting clips that I could find, and they have acted almost entirely on what they assume people want based on surveys and samples - it's extremely sketchy reasoning, from both a statistical and a logical point of view. I can't say I fully support him, as I have most of our past leaders. Just because he's a volunteer doesn't mean I have to hold him up to some lesser standard. In his elevated position, I actually expect much better.

I read this article last night. Surbaugh is not the most eloquent speaker, and the writing sourced in the piece isn't that far out-of-step with his somewhat colloquial writing style, but I don't know how likely it is that Buzzfeed would be getting such an "inside scoop" while other, more credible sources remain oblivious. I concur with the fact that there are some mighty worrisome things going on at National, but ... I can't say I feel "aghast," lol.

When the OA comes to do our AofL crossovers, it's a very meaningful and impressive event. The lights are dimmed, and a large, deep drum starts beating slowly as OA members walk in to the room in full Native American regalia. Then one begins to tell the legend of the Arrow of Light and the young brave who led his tribe out of darkness with his arrows (I can't remember enough of the details to retell it here), and then he calls out the names of the boys who have achieved the rank of AofL. The boys are charged to live the Oath and Law and the Outdoor Code, then their parents are called up so that the boys can award them their parents' pins - all of this by OA members in full costume, which the Cub Scouts always find impressive. There is then a special dance to celebrate. If any of the boys are also bridging over to Boy Scouts, there is further story-telling, and the OA speaker/dancer guides them over our special "bridge" to their new leaders, who then have time to offer a few words, followed by their new patrol leaders welcoming them into their new patrols. Then more dancing and celebration, and even photo opportunities after the meeting. Having their additional elements in our program has gone a long way towards encouraging my Webelos to advance in rank, and it gives purpose and meaning to what might otherwise just be another patch on their shirt. It's solemn, but also fun and exciting - the boys are usually riveted to what's going on, and the parents LOVE it. The big drum sounds mighty fine in our big multi-porpose room, and I can't thank my lodge enough whenever they pull off an especially good performance.

Welcome! Always a pleasure to welcome another Cub Scouter here!

Another New Yorker, hooray! I lived in Huntington Station for a while, and in Hempstead before that - but a born Queens boy here. Welcome to the forum!

It's times like these that make me grateful my CO is sticking to boy-only Cub Scouting, lol.

Oh no! That would be tragic; my boys LOVE when the OA comes all decked out in full regalia for their Arrow of Light ceremonies! I note however the use of the word rumor ... I hope that is just the case here. So many stories get bandied about here sometimes, one can only hope this is one of those times when the tale proves to be unfounded. Luckily the majority of my current crop o' boys will be getting their A'sofL before NOAC!

Most of the above posts have been correct - LDS boys are in Webelos for just a year, so as the Webelos Den Leader, I work to get them their Webelos rank AND their Arrows of Light all in the same year. It's really not too difficult; I have been at it for two years now and have never had a boy fail to earn either. And I don't use the new simplified requirements either, lol. Also, boys were indeed automatically registered into a Varsity unit at 14, then a Venturing crew at 16 - every U.S. congregation had a Church-sponsored chartered Pack, Troop, Team and Crew of its own up until the change. But because almost nobody understood nor used the Varsity/Venturing programs effectively, we now just stick to a Pack and Troop for each congregation, with boys sticking to the Troop as long as he likes until he turns 18. As for whether this has led to the discontinuing of the Varsity program, I cannot say, though I could see that being a potential result. As for the boy in question, I agree with what the Guide says - just because he is held back in school does not mean he has to be help back in Scouting. We are not beholden to what the schools do with their system of advancement. If the boy is current with his Scouting activities, and has no other issues holding him back, he should absolutely move on to the next level with the other boys his age, even if he has to repeat the same school grade a dozen times. ;-)

I wouldn't use the wording "only the knot," since the knot is still an honorable indication of rank. I think part of the problem here is that people seem to have disparaging views on the Eagle knot, as though only the actual rank patch was really good enough. Why is this? Is it because it's bigger and flashier? Is it the attention we are craving? The knot is just as honorable as the rank patch. And if one really is starved for attention, there are the neckerchiefs, the slides, the belt buckles - goodness knows a hundred other ways to advertise that you are an Eagle Scout if that's what you want. Why people get hung up over the rank patch is frankly pointless to me. And if you really do insist on wearing the darn thing, get your Eagle earlier so you have time to wear it longer. Although I got my Eagle at 14 and I couldn't have cared two figs about whether people noticed my patches or not.

It's a bit easier in an LDS Pack like mine; as has been mentioned, we use a simple 3-year program. At 8 a boy is a wolf, at 9 he's a bear, and at 10 he's a Webelos Scout. At 11 they move on to the Troop in a new Scout patrol. Easy to manage, very few complications. Their Primary Sunday School classes go by year as well, so they are always with the same boys from year to year.