The Latin Scot

Welcome to the forum, from one California Scouter to another! May I ask from what part of California you hail (it's a big place)?

That sounds to me, if you'll forgive my bluntness, an incredibly short-sighted and narrow understanding of a human life. If you define a man simply by his tastes, preferences, orientation, religion, nationality, color, or any other outward marker, and claim that that is "who he was," then you are ignoring the most important indicator of a person's true self: what they choose to be, or in this case, chose. He never chose to define himself by those minor details of his life, thus neither should we. That is the central message of Scouting; it is our choices that define us. I have read almost every biographical book, essay, paper and article on BP, and the idiosyncrasies of his private life have little to no bearing whatsoever on who he truly was - because the man he CHOSE to be exponentially superseded whatever proclivities or personal foibles or quirks or oddities he may have had during his life, and that man went to his grave as one of the most noble and upright men of his generation, whatever detours or distractions he may have travelled on his way there. Let's not use the tired method of pulling the "secretly gay!" card in an attempt to manipulate people into accepting other lifestyles; there are far more reasonable, respectful, empathetic, and measured ways that we can accomplish the same thing without wresting it from the personal legacies of leaders who aren't here to clarify or defend their actions for us.

Thank you all for the information! I am more than content to at least have the publishing information; it is now near the very top of my very long list of "Scouting Grails." Much appreciated! 😄

There was a Scout Manual with 101 USES FOR THE NECKERCHIEF?!?!? IF ANYBODY IS IN POSSESSION OF THIS MANUAL AND IS WILLING TO PART WITH IT I WOULD GLADLY GIVE IT A NEW FOREVER HOME AND TREASURE IT FOREVER!!!! 🤩

And yet in the Cub Scout Leader Guide, it specifically states in the first paragraph of page 27, under Webelos Scouts: "If a child joins Cub Scouts as a fifth grader they may start working on Arrow of Light without earning the Webelos rank first."

There are no apostates in Scouting. And there is no shunning; only loving, and teaching, and helping, and trusting. Those will always work better than "luck."

This doesn't surprise me, seeing as it utterly opposes your views, and people don't like having their opinions dismantled so vehemently. It must be difficult for you to be countered so vociferously, and I am not by nature a contrary individual (quite the opposite in fact) but I opine that for the sake of the Scouts, for the sake of the institution of Scouting itself, it must be said. I will stand up for our youth and their program, regardless of how that advocacy is received or perceived. You are, of course, free to reject my analysis, but you are powerless to erase it, and will prove incapable of disproving it. And as Obi-Wan dryly remarked, "in my experience there's no such thing as luck." There is hard work, and commitment, and effort, and study, and trust in the program, and trust in the youth. I have put in this effort for years now, and have reaped a rich harvest, proving to me over many years the certainty of the lessons I have learned, some of which I have shared here, others in other threads. I have invested years of my life into studying the core philosophies of Scouting as established by good and inspired men like Baden-Powell, Seton, West, Beard, and Hillcourt; practicing them, and teaching them, and the resulting evidences I have found are abundant beyond refute. Practice Scouting exactly, and you'll get exact results. You may not like it; you may even reject it - but you cannot disprove it. Please understand that while this is certainly an incendiary point of view, I do it without any desire to discredit you, nor is this in any way personal. But we are talking about a program that is designed to help prepare our youth for the world ahead of them, and to protect them from all the harmful influences that would prey upon them were they to be ill- or unprepared. So while this might seem like a trivial matter to some, in truth it is the very smallest action which leads to the very biggest results - one by one, line upon line, precept upon precept. So many people have become inured to mediocrity, or casualness, or other laissez-faire approaches to working with children and youth - in fact, my generation is all but notorious for this kind of mentality - and I believe it is one of the most significant factors eroding the Boy Scouts of America today. So I will cling to the older values like grim death, because they work- I have seen it over and over again. Those who haven't seen its success are invariably those who didn't put in enough effort, or didn't trust the core program, and tried to modify it to make it fit their own ideas and worldviews. Sadly, such people seem to be the majority these days. I confess, sometimes I get nervous when I write posts like this. I try to be amicable and understanding whenever possible, and sometimes I would rather just be silent and let things pass. I have such tremendous respect for all of those who visit this forum, because I know they are here with the express interest of becoming better leaders and better Scouters. That is hugely significant to me, and I try to always bear that in mind when I post here - the people whose words I read on this screen are real people, doing their best with Scouting in an increasingly challenging world. Sometimes I feel like I should keep my mouth shut (or fingers bound, or what have you) and not try and offend anybody. But then I think of how many millions of our nations youth could benefit from Scouting, if only we would do it right, if only we would fully embrace all of its methods and aims with all the energy of our hearts - and then I looked on my wall, where I have a lovely print with the tenets of the Scout Law, on which it says And so here I am. Fortunately, I doubt there is a single person on this forum who is capable of such malice, and we are blessed to have one of the most courteous, amicable online forums I know of (and participated in many). Nevertheless, when I read the topic of this thread - Eagle Mentor Pin on Scout Uniform - I am compelled to ask along with Theoden King, "how did it come to this?" I am sure many are reading this now, wondering the same thing. Well, it came about because people wanting to do the right thing come here with questions. And there should have been a simple answer! Yet, alas, it became profoundly convoluted because so many people just don't like simple answers, and instead they attempt to embellish and complicate the basic concepts, feeling they lack sufficient 'intellectual embroidery,' or because the basic truths make it difficult for them to get away with their own lackadaisical approach to the program. The simple, absolute answer is: No. Parent and Eagle mentor pins are not to be worn on the uniform. It's so utterly simple; that is the answer! Nothing else needs to be said. It's easy for those who are sufficiently humble to understand why. Yet it's a massive challenge for those who put their pride, either in themselves or in their youth or in their position, above their principles - and few are as difficult to teach as the proud. We need to teach our youth better. We need to be better. We can all do it, but first we must be willing to accept that, maybe, just maybe, our approach to doing things needs to change. And that is the first step to wisdom.

Perhaps the difference is that I simply don't approach Cub or their parents with the assumption that they are going to create problems. I always assume that in their hearts, people want to do the right thing - and I am rarely disappointed. I have found this to be true both as a Scout leader and as an educator. I never have to "go to war" with them, because I always treat them like beloved allies - and funny enough, that approach seems to make them feel like beloved allies. I have developed deep and meaningful relationships with not only my Scouts, but also their parents and siblings - because I decided early on that I would love and care for every member of our pack. And that makes all the difference. People want to learn from their friends. So that's how I approach all Scouting. It's really so much easier than people want to pretend it is. Yet we make such a fuss about how hard it is to get kids to behave or to wear their uniforms correctly, almost as though it's some kind of badge of honor that they are willing to put up with such difficult travails as those "****-nosed cub scouts and their moms." That kind of attitude is utterly disrespectful of our cub scouting families, and has no place in Scouting. I would never advocate being satisfied with mediocrity, yet that's just the kind of attitude that is watering down the program and driving out our families today. Expect less, get less. Scouting should be more than that.

I think that if the youth are 'disappointed' because a leader isn't wearing his Eagle Mentor pins on his uniform, it's only because they needed to be taught better principles more clearly. First of all, if you were to change into a suit coat to receive the mentor pin and change back after, that would do the exact OPPOSITE of denigrate the significance of the uniform - rather, it would be a powerful demonstration of how much one honors the uniform and its proper wearing, and if anything, would only serve to increase its esteem and respect. I taught my Webelos Scouts about the importance of wearing the uniform correctly out of both respect for the uniform, the organization it represents, and themselves as members of this august body. I taught them about how the military is very strict about its uniform guidelines, as are police officers and other important service organizations, and I made sure to ALWAYS wear mine correctly. And they followed that same tone of respect for their uniforms while with me and when they moved on to Scouts BSA; my boys (bless their hearts) were known for ALWAYS being remarkably well-uniformed. As they started earning the rank of Eagle, they would ask me beforehand about the mentor pins, since I had taught them in Cub Scouts that they weren't for uniform wear. So I would tell them that I trusted them to be clever enough and creative enough to come up with a solution. And every single one of them did! Most would present them in lovely little jewelry boxes. They were never disappointed, because they were taught to be prepared. That's what Scouting, properly done, is all about. But when my Den Chief finally had his Eagle Scout ceremony, he had already just finished boot camp with the Marines - and he made it very clear to me that we would be appearing in his military uniform. So we had his Scout uniform displayed on a mannequin we found, perfectly arranged and looking very professional. But as we presented him with his medals and neckerchiefs, he pointed out to the audience very maturely that he was not to wear them on his military dress uniform, so we simply handed him the medal in its box, and placed the neckerchief on the mannequin. His example was a potent teaching moment for everybody there, and after that, the quality of uniform wearing in both the troop and all the dens in our adjacent pack improved to the point of nearly universal perfection, especially among my fellow leaders, who up until then were less attentive to the concept as I had been. The natural consequence of this was that behavior, involvement, and maturity in our units improved dramatically. We never had problems getting the boys to volunteer or participate in activities, they were naturally willing to take the lead on their own troop affairs and advancements, the Cub Scouts were better behaved and more interested in learning, and the adults became more sincere in their commitment to the program. And much of that was because of the fact that the way we present ourselves affects the way we behave; like actors on the stage, our costuming affects the way we play our part. But these things have to be taught, and I wonder how many leaders are able to effectively communicate these kinds of ideas to young people, and because they find themselves unable or unwilling to do so, end up being a bit too casual or too apathetic about the concept (as with so many other things in Scouting, uniforms being but one part of the much larger whole). And they do so at a cost; the benefits of the appearingly small extra effort go far beyond the Scouts simply "looking good" - it's about feeling good, about feeling right, and allowing that to help build the natural confidence that they will need and use to grow into powerful, effective leaders someday. We trivialize what we do not fully comprehend, but were we to really consider why we do the things we do, we would likely do them a bit better.

So ... if we would just let Scouters wantonly ignore the Guide to Awards and Insignia ... there would be no war? 🤨 Hmm. This somewhat tortured appeal to pathos actually confirms to me the validity of all my previous comments, both in this thread and in all other threads like it (can you believe this thread is almost two years old???). Honestly, nothing seems to rile people up as much as telling them that there are guidelines to uniforming which they are not following - why do people take this so personally? It's such a small little thing to take off a few pins or to more a few patches! But then, I suppose it says much more about the man or woman who is willing to receive guidance and follow it cheerfully, than it does about those who turn into honest-to-goodness grumps just because they've got one little patch or pin wrong here or there, and thus they kick against the pricks because - heaven forbid! it suggests they have to change. And people sure hate to change, even when it's meant to help them set better examples for the Scouts they serve. Honestly, it's so small a thing, yet people are so defensive about it. I mean, this thread is almost two years old, yet clearly, people are still up in arms over it. And I suppose they will be for many years to come; nevertheless, I stand by every word I said before, and my stance on this issue has changed no one whit since then.

Well, linguistically, the answer would be no - the Luddites followed in the example of Ludd, who was merely their exemplar but not a Luddite himself. And The Old Pretender was no mere Jacobin; he was James Francis Edward Stewart himself, the desired ruler of his Jacobin followers, certainly not one of them. So in that sense, no, Jesus would be The Christ Himself, who stands at the head of His people. However, considering the intimacy He preserves betwixt himself and His people, I am certain He doesn't mind being placed in that grouping. ☺️ True, Jesus was Jewish both by ethnicity and nationality (well, half-Jewish at any rate), but as a part of His entire purpose was, as He said, to "do away with old things" and "to fulfil the law of Moses," in the three years of His ministry He established His own Church with its own organization and laws - and so by the time of His death and Resurrection, it would likewise be incorrect to say that He was really Jewish. As for Byzantium, well ... they were many things. Christian in culture and art and prestige and power and conquest. But Christian at heart? in thought and word, and in charity? I know far too much about them to concur entirely with that assessment.

I actually would recommend against it. First and foremost, it states as much in the Guide to Awards and Insignia (which one would think would be enough to settle the discussion here and now, though some people would rather be permissive than be correct). Anyway, Den chiefs' places in their respective dens are symbolized by their den chief cords; the Wolf and Bear chiefs wear blue and gold cords, while the Webelos cords add a red braid. That should be enough of an identifier for them, though some Scouts (and leaders) have to be taught the concept of "less is more." The reasoning behind it is thus: The den number patches are specifically Cub Scout uniform insignia, which implies that it is to be worn only by Cub Scouts and their leaders. Now, here is where you ask, are not Den Chiefs also Cub Scout leaders, and thus entitled to wear den numbers as well? And the answer is: no! Den Chiefs are not actually members of the pack, but rather, members of their Scouts BSA troop, who serve as 'honorary' members of the pack without actually belonging to it. This is why theirs is the only position in all of Scouting to wear cords of any kind over the shoulder; those cords are a fitting representation of the their ties to the Cub Scouting program, in whose circles they play a crucial and beloved role even while pursuing their own adventures in the Scouts BSA program (or the Venturing program if such is the case). Being exempt from wearing the den number patches is in no way a matter of their being 'excluded' from the den; for all intents and purposes, they are just as much a part of their den as its Scouts and leaders. But this doesn't change the fact that they are still serving us from a separate and different program, and they wear the uniform of that program - and that program has its own uniform rules and protocols. Simply put, members of Scouts BSA don't wear Cub Scout insignia. So, clearly, there is no reason for a den chief to wear a den number patch -their position is indicated by the Den Chief patch, and their relationship with the pack and their den by those cords. No other role in Scouting crosses over two different programs, so it is certainly a singular opportunity and an honor to wear those cords.

There are the generic contest/award medals; leaders are free to use them to honor whatever meritorious or noteworthy action they like. Sure, they are usually used for contests, but I believe acting especially Scout-like can certainly be included under that umbrella of honors. I used them for long-term uniform competitions and they were worn with pride by Scouts even at their Eagle Courts of honor. They have Cub Scout-colored versions as well, which I would often use for special Webelos events. One of the things I appreciate about them is that they come in gold, silver and bronze, so you can tailor your awards to the 'degree' of service your Scouts render, and they can be worn with other medals on the uniform, which is always a plus - refer to the Guide to Awards and Insignia for more information about medal wearing and placement. And they are official BSA awards, though intentionally generic in purpose. They are available at the Scout Shop, both in stores and online.

Always happy to help! 😄