ASMInVirginia

I believe that this is his driving motivation. I agree that the ASMs need to express their support for the patrol method especially when failures occur. They are to be expected, and they are not a reflection of his leadership. I think he feels that everyone will have more fun when things always go according to his plan, but I think they will have much more fun if things fail going by the scouts' plans.

Thanks Tampa Turtle. It's good to hear from others who have been in similar situations. Yes, morale is low, and we are losing some of our older scouts. I really enjoyed the boy-led chaos when we had it before, and I am completely fine with the scouts teaching skills to the other scouts. I also have no problem in allowing them to fail if they show up unprepared. The new SM makes his disappointment known rather than have a backup plan, and he definitely instills a fear in the scouts that their leadership may not count toward rank advancement when they fail.

Agreed. Thanks Chris.

Thanks Beavah. Our last SM holds a great deal of social capital. He's very wise and an excellent listener. I'll see if he would be up for a chat.

I'm the same way. I believe in getting right to the heart of the problem, and I am not much of a talker. The SM can spend over 10 minutes talking about something that can be said in one minute. I usually try to say what needs to be said in as few words as possible. After a while, I tend to tone him out, and he always assumes that silence means consent.

Love it!

Qwazse - We always try to set a reasonable distance between the adult camping area and the scouts. It is not always easy given the camp size sometimes, but it is our troop policy to do this. All of your replies are motivating me to go have that coffee with him. I was beginning to feel like throwing in the towel like the other ASMs, but that is not in the best interests of the scouts. I have about 10 years of various leader roles in Cub Scouts (have 2 boys 5 years apart) and 5 years overlapping with the Boy scouts, and I have run into many difficult personalities and people playing hardball politics with their roles, and I keep trying to remind myself that this is about the scouts. This SM is the most difficult I have ever come across, but I will try whittling away at him.

Sound advice. Thanks Stosh.

To be honest, I sometimes feel like I am the only one with the patience to talk with him even though he always tries to control the conversation and gives me little time to speak. I have tried to talk to him before about this - specifically the fact that he shoots down my ideas and interrupts me whenever I attempt to talk to him. I told him that it is frustrating, and he seemed to appreciate the feedback, but he does nothing to correct the problem. It was later that I heard from the scouts about their issues with him. The scouts feel much more comfortable telling me about their problems. Other ASMs have been telling me about their issues with him, and I usually tell them that they need to talk to him, but they either do not, or they get into heated arguments, and have difficulty really getting their concerns out with him. I don't think that some of them make as much of an effort to be as cordial with him as I do. I am more than happy to do whatever I can to make him look good, but there is a bit of a difference between looking good and actually being good. To the outside world and on paper, we look like we are boy-led. On the inside, we are not. The conversations have to be a two-way street, but they are most often one-way. It is difficult to get these points across to someone who is a very bad listener.

Hi Hedgehog, sorry - I missed the link to the graphic. Now I understand the ratings. I will try to submit this to our committee. Thanks!

Hi Hedgehog. I am not familiar with this rating, but it sounds like you are moving in a positive direction while we are falling back. My original thought was to share my post with our committee, but I don't know if this will create hard feelings with the SM. I agree that he wants the troop to function as a welled oiled machine, and he feels that it is very important that we win things like the Journey to Excellence Award. IMHO, these things are not nearly as important as letting the scouts run the PLC and plan their events with as little intervention as possible. I forgot to mention that our SM also does this with the scouts, but that most of the ideas come from himself. I completely agree with your comment about the vision of TEACHING THE BOYS TO LEAD. I believe that in our SM's mind, he is doing exactly this. But by not soliciting feedback, doing most all of the talking, interrupting others when they speak and discarding their ideas, he is not teaching them to lead. He is teaching them to blindly follow orders. I have no problem with messy and disorganized. We were this way before, and it was fun because the scouts felt empowered, and they were enjoying themselves. As ASMs, we do encourage the boy-led philosophy. Whenever I'd like to see something done, I always talk to the highest ranking scouts and get their opinion and ask them to take charge of it. The SM on the other hand will do it himself. As I mentioned, he loves to hear himself talk, and he really likes speaking out to the troop at every opportunity when it makes more sense for the SPL or ASPL to do this. He always interrupts ASMs when they try to speak to the troop. He seems to be very insecure about this.

Thanks Beavah for your perspective. I had a feeling that some folks would side with the SM on those three points you mention, and I am totally fine with that. I am really not looking to replace this man with another SM. I like him as a friend and respect much of what he is trying to do. I just feel that he is a bit too controlling and unwilling to let the scouts run the show. He loves to hear himself talk, and he is a very bad listener. My preference is to see him do better, and I like your idea of the ASMs taking him out in a relaxed atmosphere and discussing these issues with him. I'm sure he will get defensive, but I always believe it is best to solve a problem at the source rather than dance around it. I like the idea of having an ASM run the PLC, but I doubt that the SM would be willing to relinquish control over that. We can certainly suggest that to him. I never thought of that nor did I know it was an option. We do have another parent on the committee who helps scouts working toward eagle. I think some scouts and their parents weren't aware of this, so I have encouraged them to see her. Videoing a troop meeting is also a very good idea. From last September to the present, we have had very few productive troop meetings. Many scouts are very bored, and attendance has been dropping. I'd like for the parents to see this. BTW - love the accent. Are you Canadian ;-) Stosh - thanks for your comments on personnel changes. If we can not get the SM to step back and stop micromanaging, we may have to have a talk with the COR.

I apologize for the long post, but it is written out of frustration, and I wanted to cover as much as possible. Our troop has a scoutmaster (SM) who has been performing the role for over a year and a half now. Things were fine under our last SM. We were scout led, and there was organized chaos. We gave our scouts a chance to fail within a safe environment. There were times when the adults would teach the scouts various skills, etc., but the scouts were usually encouraged to help out with this. Under the leadership of the new SM, things are very different. He came in with a full agenda that he says is meant to give the scouts more responsibilities and make the troop truly scout led; however, we have actually gone the opposite direction. Some examples: Under the last SM, we would have monthly hour long Patrol Leader Conferences (PLCs) in which the Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) would prepare an agenda and run the meeting. The scout leaders would speak for most of the meeting with the SM speaking for no more than 5 - 10 minutes. If the SPL did not have an agenda, the SM would offer up some suggestions of topics to discuss. Under the new SM, the PLCs are longer, and the SM speaks for 90 - 95% of the meeting. The scouts are given very little time to speak. When they do, the SM usually interrupts them. He repeatedly shoots down their ideas and suggestions in favor of his own. The Assistant Scout Masters (ASMs) have gotten so frustrated with this that they stopped attending the PLCs. The only adult leader at the meetings now is the SM. For one meeting, a particularly diligent SPL decided to prepare his own agenda. He spent a lot of his free time doing this while his school work took a back seat. He was proud of what he had accomplished, and brought it to the PLC. The SM tossed it out in favor of his own. Needless to say, the scout was crushed. The SM holds adult leadership meetings which can last over 2 - 3 hours with him again speaking for 95% of the time and rarely soliciting feedback. The meetings run over his planned time limit, and he has very little time left at the end for feedback. At this point, nobody wants to give feedback as they all want to go home and get on with their lives. As with the scouts, any ideas/suggestions are usually discarded. As you would guess, the attendance of these meetings is declining at an accelerated rate. The SM has a tendency to call the SPL regularly and keep him on the phone for 90 minutes to 2 hours. The SM usually does all of the talking while interrupting the SPL when he tries to speak again ignoring any feedback. One time the SPL got in trouble with his parents because the SM talked right through his dinnertime. The conversations are always troop related with the SM usually expressing what he expects from the SPL. The scout leaders are usually afraid to tell the SM they don't have time to talk. They do not tell him when they disagree with him or that they feel that he is not really giving them a chance to lead. They fear that questioning his style will affect their rank advancement. One ASM expressed his difference of opinion on things only to have the SM get defensive and argumentative. The ASM is one of the most helpful and friendly of all in the troop volunteering for just about anything, and now he rarely attends meetings and stopped coming on camp outs. Other ASMs are reluctant to question the SMs style as they also fear it may negatively affect their sons' relationships with the SM (and possibly rank advancement). Since he has started, we have only had one scout run for SPL unopposed twice as none of the other scouts wanted to do the job because of the SM's style. We recently had one other scout who ran unopposed and won. The scout is brand new to the troop and hasn't had a chance to get to know the SM. The previous SPL said he will never run again. The SM prepares the transportation plan for all camp outs. He always makes sure that he rides with the SPL (along with other scouts). During the ride, he talks the SPL's ear off explaining his expectations for the camp out while not soliciting any feedback. The last SPL greatly feared these rides and asked to ride with other drivers, but the SM would not allow this. This same SPL had registered and paid a non-refundable fee for an OA Fellowship camp out which conflicted with a troop camp out. When time came for the troop camp out and the SM found out the SPL wasn't going, he told him he had no choice and had to go on the troop camp out. So the scout lost his money and missed out on his Fellowship. The SM micromanages all aspects of our camp outs. He will put scouts in charge of various activities, but if it looks like things are not going according to plan, he immediately steps in and takes over. He does not give the scouts a chance to fail. He does this to adult leaders as well. He is all about control. He also goes a bit overboard with the Patrol Method. If Patrol A only has 2 scouts, Patrol B has 3 scouts, Patrol C has 2 scouts and Patrol D has 5 scouts, he will keep them as 4 separate patrols rather than combine into 2 or 3 patrols. This means that we need to bring 4 chuck boxes along with 4 bins with pots/pan, etc., and 4 camp stoves. This also causes a problem with car space as we have a very limited number of drivers. We used to have more drivers (ASMs with pickup trucks, etc.), but they got tired of dealing with the SM and stopped coming. Some of these ASMs would bend over backwards to help out with anything (service projects, various activities and more). We have lost some very good volunteers. One scout recently quit when he became frustrated that he was being passed over for advancement. The SM told him it was not a big deal and that not all scouts make it to Eagle Scout. Another scout became extremely discouraged and upset when he told the SM he wanted to make Eagle Scout rank before the age of 16. The SM's response was that he didn't feel that a scout would reach a level of maturity to reach Eagle rank before that age. His favorite phrase is that "It is not about making Eagle Scout. It is about the journey". While we all understand the intended meaning of the phrase, I believe that he uses it the wrong way. He should be encouraging rather than discouraging. On our last summer camp out, our acting SPL suggested that we do our Thorns and Roses (likes and dislikes of the camp out) the night before we go home (rather than day of departure) in order to get on the road faster. The SM simply said "We are not going to do that". His reason being that it would be too hard to do at night. Again, he doesn't allow the scout to try an idea, not scout run, not giving a chance to fail. Adult leaders (except for the SM) are no longer allowed to teach the scouts skills. This must be done by the scouts (which is fine), but our weekly troop meetings are now almost completely unorganized, much more chaotic and devoid of any content. The few ASMs that are left are extremely bored and have nothing to do. All scout activities during troop meetings must be done as a troop. There is no branching off into patrols or separate groups to do separate things. Camp out meal planning, duty planning, etc. tends to fall through the cracks. Under the previous SM we would have "Patrol Time" where patrols would branch off separately and do this sort of planning. Adults would sometimes teach merit badge classes during troop meetings, but this is no longer allowed. This must be done on other nights or before troop meetings, so as a result, they are much less likely to happen. In our SM's mind, things are better than they have ever been. He even mentioned (in front of the last SM) that we are now fully scout run whereas we were not before. I believe that he truly means well and wants what is best for the boys and that he is a good person, but I feel that his judgement is clouded and that he can't see what everyone else sees. I have spoken to some of the other ASMs and parent volunteers, and I was relieved to find that I am not the only one who feels this way. I am really not sure what to do about this. The majority of the ASMs are unhappy as are a good deal of the scout leaders and scouts. Is there something that the troop's committee can do? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Our troop has a scoutmaster who has been doing the job for over a year now. Things were fine before he started. We were scout run, and there was organized chaos. There were times when the adults would teach the scouts various skills, and this was a pet peeve of his while he was an ASM. When he took over, he stressed how he wanted the troop to be completely scout run and took the role with a new agenda. In his mind, things are much better now, although all of the ASMs feel that we have gone backward. Some examples: We have a monthly Patrol Leader Conference (PLC). Our last Scoutmaster would let the scouts plan it and run it. If they didn't plan it, he would make some suggestions before the meeting. The scouts would run the meetings, and he would speak for no more than 5 - 10 minutes throughout the 1 hour meeting. Now, the meeting is longer, and the new scoutmaster speaks for at least 90 - 95% of the time. When scouts offer ideas/suggestions, he usually shoots them down. One diligent Senior Patrol Leader spent a good deal of his personal time preparing an agenda while some of his school work suffered. At the PLC, when he informed the scoutmaster that he wanted to use his agenda, the SM tossed it aside in favor of his own. Needless to say, this upset the SPL. Many times, the SM calls the SPL at home and talks to him for 90 minutes to 2 hours. The SM does nearly all of the talking, The SPL told me he got into trouble with his parents because the SM spoke right through his dinner time. Scout leaders are afraid of disagreeing with the SM for fear it may affect their rank advancement. They also feel they can not talk to him because the SM does all of the talking and does not listen to them. They start to speak, then he jumps in and starts talking, and it's all over. He is a very bad listener. This is the same with his conversations with ASMs. The SM prepares the transportation plan for every camp out, and makes sure that the SPL always rides with him (along with other scouts). He talks the SPL's ear off throughout every ride. Our current SPL hates these drives. The SPL wanted to go on an OA Fellowship camp out which conflicted with a troop camp out. He registered and paid the non-refundable fee. The SM told him he had to go on the troop camp out causing the scout to lose his money. He would not empower the ASPL to go in his place. The SM feels that the Patrol Method must be used at all times including camp outs where we may have 2 scouts from one patrol, 3 from another, etc. He wants each patrol to bring their own chuck boxes, pots/pans, etc. So 1 or 2 scouts may have to cook as a patrol and 3 - 4 scouts may cook as another patrol, etc. This presents another problem because we have limited adults driving, and the chuck boxes and bins that hold pots/pans, utensils, etc, and camp stoves take up a lot of space. We are short on ASMs because the SM seems to repel people with his overly talkative and overly opinionated personality. He also shoots down the most of the ideas and opinions of the ASMs. He delegates very little to the ASMs and tends to micromanage everything they do. He also micromanages everything the scouts do. He does not give them the chance to fail. If something looks like it is not going according to plan, he quickly steps in and takes over. He is all about being in control. What little ASMs are left are very frustrated. We have spoken to the last SM about all of this, he he essentially says that there is not much we can do about it. I have thought about transferring to another troop, but I have 3 kids in this troop, and understandably they do not want to leave since they have formed very tight friendships. One scout got frustrated and quit when discussing leadership and rank advancement, and the SM made a comment like "Not all scouts make Eagle Scout". Another scout became very upset when he said he wanted to try to become an Eagle Scout before the age of 16. Rather than encourage him, he said something like: "That probably won't happen". He likes to use the phrase: "It's not about becoming an Eagle Scout, it's about the journey". While I understand the meaning of this phrase, I feel that he uses it in the wrong way and causes scouts to become disheartened. Some adults have told me that other scouts have left the troop because of him, but this is hearsay. I have spoken with some previous ASMs who still have scouts in the troop, but stopped being ASMs because of the SM's style. Some of them are very good people who would bend over backward to volunteer for anything. We are all very frustrated, and we want what's best for the troop. We believe that the SM's heard is in the right place, and that he really is a good person, but that he is leading the troop in the wrong direction. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!