Ankylus

Blw2, I am right there with you. Trying to weasel a way to Philmont with my son this summer. But I got a dayhike on the AT last summer and caught the fever. Trying to make it work...doing it from Texas is a bit more involved.

Our troop “travels heavyâ€. Scouts are responsible for transporting personal gear and food, but all patrol and troop gear travel in the trailer. Some of what we do is a response to outside forces. For example, we had a several year drought here in Texas that resulted in statewide burn bans. For about 4 years, we were required to cook entirely on propane gas (what with white gas being ruled out by national). So we started carrying lots of propane and we never really got out of the habit. (Although we have started making conscientious decisions to do so.) For another example, we dry camp 2 or 3 times a year, so we have lots of water jugs and coolers that are filled and brought to the campsite. Some of it is our size. We have currently something like 8 patrols, plus a “staff†patrol and the adults. That’s just a lot of gear for cooking and such. We have perhaps 15 12†or larger Dutch ovens, and a similar number of water coolers and water jugs, and a similar number of propane lanterns. We have perhaps 10 dining flies. We have portable tables that break down for each patrol. And some of it is choice. The adults use one of those large 15’ white canopies with all the metal poles, and stove that are much nice than the little camping stoves the scouts use. But it doesn’t necessarily limit our camping activities. That you have all that equipment doesn’t mean you always have to use it. We still have a canoeing, a backpacking, and a caving trip most years, and we always have a rock climbing trip. We also have a very active high adventure program. In 2017 we will have a ski trip over Spring Break, send two crews to Philmont and two crews to Sea Base, while putting together a backpacking trip to the back country of Yellowstone National Park. We go to Sea Base almost every summer. In years we don’t go to Philmont, we canoe in the US/Canadian boundary waters. So, the trailer is what it is…a useful tool for our camping program. It also serves as a rolling storage unit for our gear as our CO doesn’t really have any place for us to store it. And we don’t “take everythingâ€. If a patrol runs out of propane, they better find someone willing to trade or lend because we don’t have extras in the trailer. It is a beast, though, and as someone said, no matter how big or small it is you will fill it up.

Love it, as far as trailer camping goes.

That's because they went about choosing to avoid prejudicial behavior by exercising prejudicial behavior. To quote Chief Justice Roberts, "The way to avoid racial discrimination is not to racially discriminate." This is analogous here, too. As for not winning, you can blame the political left for politicizing every aspect of society.

I started a tangentially related thread a while back in the OA forum about increasing unit participation. There were some interesting replies worth considering. Going to the OP in this case, at least in our unit I think it has. The question would then become, why? We historically would only elect maybe 2-5 scouts out of 30 or so candidates. (Although last night we blew the doors off that with 19 out of roughly 30 elected.) And half of them, sometimes all of them, wouldn't go through the ordeal. So I have given this some thought. The first reason I settled on is, as was raised above, scouts being much more guarded with their time. I know my son (who I suspect was elected last night) is not very interested. I actually talked to him about it and he is not interested in giving up another weekend. Between school work, high school band, the whole college admissions test taking and preparation, and his and his friends Eagle scout projects, there's not really a whole lot of time left. My oldest son's story was much the same, although he did enjoy the ordeal. And I think most of the scouts in both my sons' troops are this way. The second reason is I don't think they understand what it can be for them. There is not a strong tradition in our troop, so they don't appreciate how fun camping and otherwise hanging out with their peers without the responsibilities of the POR can be, particularly coupled with their complete discretion as to participation in terms of when and what. The third reason is that our OA at both the lodge and chapter level has almost no visibility. I have never seen them at an event of any kind other than the annual scout fair where all they do is a tapout. (Yes, no service, that I can see.) Our OA rep was also the Chapter Vice-Chief, so perhaps that's a start within the troop. But I think the driving factor is that they don't see enough reason to participate when their schedules are so tight.

I agree with the first sentiment, but do not recall seeing anybody saying that non-OA members should stay out of this discussion. Maybe I'm wrong though. I also haven't seen any back slapping or smoke blowing over in the OA forum.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while. OK. Is there something magical about COs that renders them immune to criticism?

Apologies to our international brethren for the US-centric nature of this thread. In the course of my scouting adventures, I have had the good fortune to meet several people who have earned the equivalent of Eagle scout in the scouting programs of their native lands. I have known several Canadians, a Scot, an Argentinean, and a Colombian so far as I know. Does BSA contemplate recognition of these achievements in foreign scouting programs on the adult leader uniform? Our local scout shop is a national store, and they won't sell them the Eagle scout knot. (At least, that's what one of the Canadians told me.) Are they relegated to, perhaps, wearing their badge as a temporary patch? Is even that permissible in light of the fact that it's from a foreign scouting program?

As I stated above, I don't think there will be anything close to adequate records to establish what was going on. The purpose of the audit is to identify weaknesses in the financial administration of the unit. If it comes from an outside party, it will have more force. It is apparent that nobody involved in running the unit right now has any idea how the books should be set up and the accounts managed. An outside audit would help that. In response to NJCubScouter's question, no, I have not. And I, too, would get the same reaction. But then, I have never been involved in a unit whose finances were so poorly documented that they couldn't tell if the expenditures were going for the unit's business or people's mortgages.

Agreed. We always emphasize to parents the "safe to fail" environment of scouting. We all learn more from our failures than our successes. And thank you, too, for sharing the article.

When we signed up to go with my son's troop in 2010, we told them that we could not attend shakedown hikes if they were held on Saturday, but would make anything they held on Sunday. He was involved at a high level in sport we thought might take him to college that demanded every Saturday morning during the shakedown period. What do you know? Almost all the scheduled shakedowns were conducted on a Saturday. He went to the few that were on Sundays, but missed all the Saturdays. And he still caught crap from the SM. But I was going to raise holy Hell with them if that was a real problem because we made our scheduling issues known at the time of sign-up and they went against that anyway for the convenience of the SM (who wasn't even on our crew--same trip, different crew). I was the adult leader on the second crew who had received the wilderness First Aid training, so I think he didn't push the issue any further because he couldn't afford for me to drop out. So remember that they gave you a blank check when they signed up and don't abuse that. Show some flexibility. But as qwasze notes, you know your people. My son didn't need a lot of conditioning after swimming 3 or 4 hours a day 6 days a week year round except for competitions. And the few Sundays were enough for the equipment shakedown and to get use to the pack. Indeed, what with track, cross-country, swimming, football, and lacrosse, every youth on that crew was a well-conditioned high school athlete--there wasn't a whole lot of conditioning needed for the youth. If our SM had been able to see that, things would have been much smoother. So consider the level of conditioning already attained for the members of your crew. My experience is that the adults will need the conditioning much more so than the youth and the ones who aren't in condition now won't be as a result of the shakedown hikes. They are helpful, but don't happen enough to constitute real conditioning. On the flip side, we had the boys select their trek. They selected the third longest, most difficult itinerary. If your crew members are not dedicated enough to condition as needed, you need to provide some guidance on trek selection. Gear is a personal issue. Let each scout choose their own in light of there shakedown experiences, as long as what they choose is adequate. I feel this is a part of the learning experience and it is intensely subjective and personal. (I have heard from troops returning from deployment that a LOT of this goes on during deployment. You don't really know until you get in the field, even if you train.) There's a money issue here, too. And be ready to refund their money if they don't meet the arbitrary requirements set down after they have committed. And yes, these expectations are largely arbitrary in their particulars.

I really like this idea. It would be difficult to implement in our hometown, too. For example, it would take us 45 minutes just to get to the "city center" and find parking. And, like Tampa, we have all those kinds of problems as well. But perhaps there is a location closer to our meeting house that would serve as well or better. Thank you for the idea.

Do we NEED summer camp? The answer to that question depends on what kind of program you want to have. However, if you want what I think of as a traditional scouting experience and a lively, thriving program, the only answer is YES. I see several goals for summer camp: (1) scouts having fun with their friends, (2) the opportunity to earn MBs, many if they so desire, (3) facilitate progress on certain MBs that are particularly outdoor oriented, and (4) learn/emphasize scouting skills like cooking, leadership, etc. Fun, as always, is the first priority. For younger scouts, especially, I see it as an opportunity to cement their interest in the program. I mean, at that age, what can be more fun than sleeping in a tent and hanging around outside all day with your friends with no babysitters or teachers? That can easily be ruined, though, with the "MB mill" concept other have mentioned. Staying in MB classes all day every day is a grind they can get in school. We live in a strongly Type-A personality neighborhood. The parents are accomplished and they are eager that their children become accomplished as well. We spend a lot of time counseling parents down off the ledge about “my child isn’t advancing fast enoughâ€. In our troop, we have a strong, well established FCE program in addition to the regular troop program. While the younger scouts are working on ranking up to First Class, they typically do not have the same opportunities to work on MBs because troop sponsored MB classes are held at the same time as FCE. This makes some parents very nervous. I find that summer camp is a great opportunity for them to scratch that itch. We counsel them so that the scouts don’t get overwhelmed with MB classes. One of the things we do is ask the first and second year scouts to limit their choices to only 3 or 4 MBs, and make those MBs that don’t require a lot of out-of-class time. (Shooting MBs, for example, are usually counseled against for this reason.) If their parents are worried about boredom (or if the scout actually gets bored at camp), we just tell them that the scout can pick up another one while he is there since it’s—after all—summer camp! Usually, we advise them to take Swimming MB, which (1) covers all the swimming stuff for First Class, and (2) is Eagle required. That seems to help some of the parents because they can tell themselves that their son is finally making “real†progress toward Eagle. The young scouts also seem to like that they will have MBs to put on a sash for COHs. There are also several MBs that are just easier and better to do at Summer Camp. Aquatics MBs have to be done outdoors, and most summer camps are staffed for that. If we had to find ways to work in not only Swimming and Lifesaving, I am not sure how many scouts at all would get canoeing, rowing, stand-up paddle boarding (not a MB), etc. Same for Environmental Science and some others that are distinctly outdoor MBs. So I always appreciate these types of opportunities. Also, there frequently are opportunities for “special awards†(somebody mentioned “BSA Lifeguardâ€â€”helped my son get a job) that would be difficult elsewhere. No scout is ever required to take even a single MB, however. Most camps these days offer program alternative to MBs for older scouts so that we still have no problem with older scouts attending summer camp. We also have some troop-specific activities that are limited to older scouts that they enjoy. My 16 yo son just attended his 4th or 5th and had a great time. Will go again next year if he doesn’t have a job. Could we still scout without summer camp? Yes, so we don’t “need†summer camp in that sense. But I consider it a valuable—even irreplaceable—part of our program. But it has to be handled and managed well.

I think you are getting tons of good advice here and I agree with everything posted so far. I think the suggestion to not assume that illegal activity is occurring is a good one. Especially because I imagine that you won't have anything close enough to adequate records for an independent audit. Still, get one if for no other reason than you can say that you did what you could. The lawyer in me says you need to be careful so that, in the event somebody does start making accusations of financial impropriety, you are not dragged into it. Hence, the independent audit, the new checking account, etc. This is also the reason for staying out of it until there is a good, hard date for transition. Then, note the date, and start keeping immaculate records and especially a budget. I would also suggest that once you take over that there be a real emphasis on transparency. Don't take any shots at the previous people, just say, "You know, I think it's a good idea to have a budget" and start working on one. Then publish it every month at the Committee Meeting. Make a report to the Committee every month about income and expenditures. Get the Committee to approve it every month. Then, if someone has a problem, it can be addressed immediately instead of becoming a festering, puss-filled sore just waiting to be lanced at some inopportune moment. And the CO should know, too. Just tell them, "We just got a new treasurer and he thinks the books are a mess. We are going to get an independent audit and get that fixed up just as quickly as we can. We will let you see the auditor's report and, of course, you are welcome to see the books any time you like." That way, (1) you are straight up hones with the CO, which has a right to know, (2) you are signaling transition (again, protecting yourself), and (3) promoting your new financial transparency. I understand the urge to try and fix it now, but wait until you have control. Good luck.

I personally don't know anything about Scoutbook. We use TroopMaster and have since before I joined this troop. It's OK, but it does have some quirks that we have to develop our process around.

1) Yes, we winter camp and we do so wherever the mood strikes. Sometimes private ranches, sometimes state parks, sometimes national forests. There is very little difference in our winter camping and in our summer camping. But then, we are in Southeast Texas, where 32F is an "extreme weather event" according to the TV News. 2) Weather varies. Since you are talking about winter camping, I assume temperature is of interest. As noted, it's warmer here. We have never canceled a campout for cold--either in Cub Scouts or in Boy Scouts--but then I have only been camping in temperatures less than 32F a handful of times over the years. I think the coldest was 24F or so. Other than than, sometimes its wet, maybe some rain or ice. But never been camping in the snow with the scouts. 3) We only tent camp in the Boy Scouts...no shelters more sophisticated than a tent. In Cub Scouts we were cabin camping. The reasoning there was that we knew we would have some young children and perhaps younger siblings, many of whom might not have camped before. 4) In the Boy Scouts, all the youth are male, of course, 10 or 11 through 18 yo. In Cub Scouts, there was family camping, so we had both sexes and all ages. 5) Finding enough adult leaders has never been a challenge because of winter camping. Our two most popular campouts are in November and January, and they are also our best attended by the adults.

I can see this. I thought our district was unorganized, but we at least can do this. The unit commissioner should be able to help you find a counselor whether through district or through a nearby troop. If your district cannot furnish the information and your unit commissioner is of no help, ask a nearby unit to share counselor information. As noted above, counselors are not registered with a unit, but with a district. Any counselor in your district should be able to counsel your scouts.

As one who has passed not one but three bar exams, I wholeheartedly concur. If you expect the scouts to be the prime mover in taking on and earning the MB, you need to make the MB requirements understandable to the scouts. Since some scouts are 11 or 12, the type of language quoted in this thread is unconscionable. I also concur with the "more doing, less talking" position stated above. I, too, have never heard a scout wax fondly over any MB. It's always the camping, or something else where they are "doing" rather than "explaining". The scouts get way too much "talking", "explaining", and "lecturing" in school. One thing I think is missing is that the BSA has been watering down the program for years to require less "doing" in the sense of having to have access to the outdoors. I don't know why, but I suspect it is to make the program more accessible for inner city youth who have difficulty accessing outdoor venues for whatever reason. The same is true for the recent STEM emphasis. Trying to be all things to all people, they are rapidly turning the program into something nobody can really recognize anymore.

I don't think the development was a part of the decision for El Rancho Cima. I think that was purely a financial decision. However, it was a factor with the old Strake. I don't think the urban surroundings were really a direct factor in the decision to close. There were three big factors. First, increasing development spawned increased regulation that made it more difficult to maintain and develop the camp. Second, as the area developed, property taxes rose quite a bit. So local governing authorities became more hostile about things like permits because they would rather have a large commercial development than a large camp because the commercial development would generate much higher tax revenues. It's the way of the world.

Me too. They had already decided that they weren't going to rebuild River Camp after the floods. I have also heard rumors that they were afraid they weren't going to be able to get permits for the rebuild, but I think that's a bunch of hocum used to rationalize the decision. i am going to miss that camp. I already am.

Every time I have seen it happen the scout was off to college before it could be done and just didn't want to spend a weekend home from college to get it all done. It's kind of like a part of their life they associate with high school and, like high school, have left behind.

The Court of Honor is not a prerequisite for anything regarding Eagle. I have seen scouts forgo the COH on several occasions. One of my son's best friends earned the rank in his senior year of high school and he didn't want to go through a COH. In his troop, the troop paid for all the Eagle scout paraphernalia handed out at the COH. The SM told the scout he could not have any of those materials until he had a COH. That was the last time I looked at the question and confirmed that the COH is not needed.

No, and I did not mean to imply you were. My apologies for being inarticulate. I meant to say that the World Jamboree is not of any importance in long term program considerations for BSA and, so, I think it is irrelevant here. I should have stated this directly rather than indirectly. Again, my apologies.

I agree with your analyses, but I am not worried about whether we get to host the World Jamboree.

Why do you think this is not or cannot be achieved through the Venturing program? Do you find the Venturing program deficient?