Ankylus

We actually had this happen to us two years ago. They came to us and one other troop at the last minute and asked us to plan it, and so we did. (To Krampus’ point, there is no substitute for planning, especially long term planning.) Then the second troop pulled out at the last minute and left us holding the bag. So this year we just told them we would organize the whole thing, and we are doing so. This is fortunate that nobody else wants to do it…that way when District tries to micromanage we can just tell them “our way or the highwayâ€â€”meaning we leave. The Camporee is in March, the location is already reserved—a council camp not far from town. I think that is an important factor—a close location. That makes it easier for other troops with less strong programs to make it and increase the attendance. So that would be the first thing I would demand is input on the site selection. Also, this particular site has wonderful facilities. It already has a rifle range, a shotgun range, an archery range, and a rock wall. We are fortunate that we have all the resources to conduct these activities ourselves. We all the equipment and certified personnel required by and in accordance with the G2SS. And all the scouts love these, in general. Accordingly, these are “must haves†for us. I see this as “fun/challenges for older scouts rather than simplified games at the Weebs levelâ€. I agree on the patrol competitions, the selling and soliciting, the merit badges, the tour permits, and the health forms. None of that. It would never have occurred to me that merit badges would be offered at camporee…that’s what merit badge fairs are for. I would except the OA because I think our OA chapter is insufficiently active and I would like them to raise their profile some, depending on what they use the money for. Ours does not currently do this, but I would not necessarily be opposed. But definitely no Girl Scouts, especially their cookies. I would require at least Class B uniforms, but wouldn’t police them. I like the idea of patrol awards rather than troop awards and patrol flags. CalicoPen’s suggestion of the cracker barrel is excellent. We do that and it goes a long way to helping build cohesion within the district. We also have a chili cookoff and ice cream social on Saturday evening. Each troop cooks a batch of chili and brings it along with their ice cream to the social. Each troop gets a table and then everyone is allowed to circulate and sample the chili and ice cream. Big hit, and it again builds cohesion. It also really allows the scouts to see their friends in other troops in a scouting context, which I think is good. Similarly, District provides hot dogs and hamburgers for Saturday lunch, which again is good for socializing. Agreed-no FOS pitches. Didn’t occur to me to not have a religious service. We usually hold it right before the awards on Sunday morning. We are trying to build participation, so we wouldn’t have a minimum participation cutoff.

Don't apologize for differing. I rather like the way you went about it. Anyways, what would be the fun if we all agreed all the time? I think you misunderstand what I write to some degree. I do not deny that there are some girls that would enjoy the BSA program as much as any boy would. My point is that the numbers of those girls wont' even begin to approach that of the boys. So when BSA starts running through their metrics, they'll look at those numbers and think, "Holy Smokes! We have to get more girls in here!" (Or, if you are more cynical, "We could really boost our membership numbers if we could just get more girls in the program.") So how would they do that? By altering the program to make it more appealing to girls. Which will make it less appealing to boys. At a minimum, they will water down the current program. If you dispute that, then please tell me the last time national actually beefed up the program with actual, core scouting skills? Arguably, which I contest, by making Cooking an Eagle-required MB, but before that? Oh, and I don't consider "it will work" to be a standard we should shoot for. I mean, the government works. Do you know anybody who actually likes the government aside from those financially dependent on it? Maybe "it would work", but I want more than just "working".

You might also take a look at this thread over in "Council Relations": http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27944-tag-youre-it-running-a-camporee-your-way/

The big hits at our camporee are rifle shooting, shotgun shooting, archery, and rock wall climbing. Others that seem popular include fire building (timed effort to build a fire to "cut" a string above it) and a timed running event. However, the chess and checkers competitions seem well attended also. Big favorite--chili cookoff and ice cream social. Every troop cooks up a bunch of chili, then takes there chili and ice cream to the social. Each troop has a table, and everyone is free to make the rounds sampling all the chili and ice cream. I can see a Dutch over desert as a successful variant. One nice thing about this is that it is not so much a burden on the organizers, but it is competitive, scout skill oriented, and everybody loves food. I like the trebuchet thing, assuming you can get the materials together so that it can be done 2 or 3 in parallel.

Let's start from this premise, which I think is undeniable: boys and girls are different, and they are interested in different things. A sweeping generalization to be sure. We all know that there are girls who are very much like boys and like the same things as boys. When I was growing up we called them "tomboys", I term I don't hear much anymore. Conversely, there are boys who are very much like girls and like the same things as girls. But on the whole, they are different, behave differently, and react differently to the same stimuli. If you can't admit that there are basic physiological and emotional differences between boys and girls, then this conversation is useless. This is important, because BSA is a large organization and, like all large organizations, it operates on metrics. They will look at the numbers of participants, the number of boys, and the number of girls and will change program according to what they perceive will boost membership. Since the program is currently oriented for boys, you can bet your bottom dollar they will alter the program to make it less about what boys like and more about what girls like. This may be good, or it may be bad, but it will happen. For example, Girl Scouts has camping as a part of its program. Most of what they call camping isn't even tent camping. My daughter's troop always had trouble with the camping because (1) the girls weren't enthusiastic, and (2) the leaders didn't want to go. In general, camping is not anywhere near as large a part of the program for Girl Scouts as it is for Boy Scouts. You think that is an accident or a mistake? No. Each program is responding to the needs/wants of its members and the importance of camping to the program reflects that. So, the result is that Boy Scouts will become more like Girls Scouts. Not completely, of course. But my exposure to the Girl Scout program through my daughter leads me to believe that will be entirely negative for the boys. Why can't we just have one venue in American life for non-athletic boys where they can be the focus and the program is tailored to them?

Well, if you see how slow the traffic is in the "Camping and High Adventure" forum, I would think another forum with a narrower topic might not be so useful after all.

OK, so reading your further postings, I have more to add. You definitely are reacting emotionally. I understand that. It is reasonable. But it is not helping you or the other people of the pack any. And getting offended by what strangers on Internet whom you have never met have to say isn't helpful. You still haven't decided how badly you want this pack number and this CO. Some good suggestions have been raised, and you seem to be dismissing all of them as "that won't work" or some variant. If that is true, then find a new CO and found a new pack. (Look at it this way...you can get two "Founder" patches...that's pretty rare.) If that is not true, then quit flailing about and start working at it. I still think it would be much easier on all involved if you just move on. Sometimes unfair and unfortunate things happen in life. Teach your cubs about that part of life where you just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and continue on. Your choices aren't changing a whole lot. The school year is starting if it hasn't started yet. Time to make a decision and act. I would also note that you are casting aspersions on the pastor's character when you allege he is just interested in the money. That is, you are doing exactly what you accuse him of doing. You might think about that a little bit.

In our District, the DEs are under a lot of pressure to start new units. They would be thrilled to see such an easy opportunity to score an easy tally for their metrics.

I heard this weekend from one of our leaders who spoke to a council rep at Roundtable that SHAC is selling not only the old Strake but also El Rancho Cima. It seems that they underestimated the cost of the new Strake and needed more money. So they are selling Cima to help pay for the new Strake. That's some seriously bad financial planning if they underestimated development costs for new Strake that badly. Not surprised, though.

I don't recall your earlier post and I cannot find it through your profile, so I have not idea if I have contributed previously. (Or, for that matter, did not contribute at all.) I just want to add one note. Scouts is not necessarily about advancement. We had a scout who spent 4 or 5 years at second class and never got higher than First Class before he turned 18. He just wasn't interested in advancement. But he loved the rest of the program. He was happy, and that is what counted. As long as he was around, he could still absorb most of the lessons of scouting. I don't know how old your nephew is or what his goals in scouting are. But you might just try letting him pick and choose what he wants to do in scouting for a bit. If he wants to participate in camping and physical activity, that is great. He doesn't have to go to all the meetings, but he needs to go enough to participate in those things. Just don't "make him" go to all the meetings for a while. Perhaps if he just participates in the parts he likes, he might start associating scouting with fun again. And once that happens, he might be able to expand his participation. Also, the camping will be a shared experience with other scouts that may help build some bonds toward friendship. Just a thought.

OK, my $.02. First, I may be wrong, but I infer that you are acting pretty emotionally here, and that is not unreasonable. But, if so, just stop it. It won't help you and it will get in the way of a good resolution. Second, the pack is not the pack number. Nor is it the CO. It is the people who lead it, who support it, and who are members of it. Don't get so attached to the pack number that it clouds everything else. The boys surely won't care what their pack number is, they just want to have fun with their friends. Third, have you talked to the other parents in the pack? How do they feel about all this? Would they be willing to start up yet another pack? If they are not going to support you in your decision or the implementation of it, there's really not much use, is there? Fourth, and most importantly, you have to ask yourself how badly do you want this pack number at this CO? Think rationally, not emotionally. What price, both metaphorically and literally, are you willing to pay to keep this pack number at this CO? Because that will absolutely frame what possible actions are real options. If you want to stay with this pack number with this CO, you have a very long row to hoe. Someone mentioned an approach based on the politics of the Lutheran church. I know nothing about that and therefore offer no comment. Someone else mentioned working it through the BSA. I have nothing to add or detract from that. But realize either way it is going to take time, patience, and effort in large quantities for either approach and they won't save you on the next recharter. And, even if you succeed, do you really want to stay at this CO in the face of the resulting hostility? I mean, it could get bad enough that the CO refuses to charter anybody in the future and then you are still looking for a new home. Fifth, you might consult an attorney to see whether the pastor has defamed you or the other members of the pack leadership. But be forewarned of three things. The first is that the pastor might indeed be working on some sort of information--which in itself may be false and defamatory--of which you are unaware. If so, that information will become very public, very quickly, in a way you won't be able to control. There is no telling how that will come out for you and your reputation long term. The second is that even if the pastor is making up things out of whole cloth, how can you ever really be made whole again? Have you lost any money? Have the allegations interfered with your enjoyment of life in some measurable way? The third is that this is the kind of situation where nobody wins except the lawyers. You are unlikely to prove any significant damages and your attorney will want to be paid. Still, you may feel that the principle of the thing is worth those risks. Sixth, I am in general agreement with what seems to be the consensus of the board here. Just find a new CO, get a new pack number, and move your people to the new pack. The current pack won't last long if everyone moves and leaves nobody at the old one, especially if there aren't any parents left willing to take over all the work. I am sorry that I don't have more to offer in the way of an actual solution. But I think these observations are cogent and will help you choose a solution. IMHO, anyway. Best of luck to you and the people of your pack.

Our troop pays for adults' registration fees and summer camp costs. If we go to a state park and there are parking fees, the troop picks those up as well. Everything else the adults pay...grubmaster for campouts, high adventure, the lot of it. On the registration fees, however, we do require that before they can register that they acquire all the training they need for their "trained" patch before they can register. That way they have some skin in the game.

Many good suggestions here. My only original contribution here would be to ask how well rounded the troop's scouts are. We have several troops whose expectations of their older scouts are so heavy that eventually the scout is faced with a choice between scouting and his extracurricular activities at school. This is particularly true of senior leadership positions. How many of their SPLs and ASPLs are involved in extracurricular activities at school? Especially the kind of activities your son may be involved in. I would like to re-emphasize CA Scout Mom's suggestion on the size of the troop. This factor makes a huge difference to some scouts and it very definitely makes a difference in how the troop is run. It also affects program in subtle ways. For example, our troop is quite large, and that enables us to have a great deal of resources in terms of material and manpower. On the other hand, it means that we have a bit more chaos (boy led), it's much harder to get and keep things rolling, and the scouts have to be a bit more aggressive in seeking out PORs. These are all part of a "troop culture" that help determine whether any given scout (and his parents) are happy in our troop. I would also like to re-emphasize the camping aspect. It is my experience that for most scouts camping is the best part of the scouting program. How many times a year do they go camping? Where do they camp? What camping activities do they engage in? Finally, I would spend some effort on their high adventure program. How often do they participate in high adventure? Where do they go? What kinds of high adventure activities do they participate in? Do the go places other than Philmont? Places other than Scout camps? The outdoor program is as important as when, where, and how often they meet.

I am leery of REI tents these days. I bought a 1 one half-dome tent for Philmont and the first day on the trail one of the poles broke as I was setting it up. They give you that little sleeve for temporary repairs, and that got me through the rest of the two weeks. Overall, I liked the tent, though. So when I got back I went to REI and asked for a replacement pole. They told me they don't have separate poles, so they gave me a new tent. That was the good part. But after 4 years, the waterproofing started to come off the fly. I mean, just absolutely peel off in large chunks. So I went back and they told me they wouldn't replace it because that's just wear and as you can only expect 4 to 5 years out of a fly like that. Meanwhile the tent I bought for $50 at Academy 15 years ago is still going strong. It's just not a backpacking tent.

I am wondering what SHAC is doing with the camping program, actually. I am looking forward to the new Camp Strake, especially after they over-developed the old Camp Strake. But I am wondering...So, we have Camp Brosig, Camp Bovay, El Rancho Cima, and now Camp Strake. Now that the closed River Camp at Cima, where are they going to offload all that traffic? To Bovay? or to new Strake? I guess Brosig will take over Old Strake's role for training and such. Just curiuos.

Our troop has camped for Summer Camp at both Sid Richardson and Constantine and we enjoy them both.

Well, for those of us in Houston, those are hills!

Agreed wholeheartedly. However, I have learned over the years that sometimes what other people think of you can be useful. For example, The lady down at council thinks a lot of me, and that helps me get her assistance for my scouts when I need or want it. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, but its also not always inconsequential.

I have always used the phrase "Russian General shirt", but same concept. I too have a shirt that is all "generaled up", including all kinds of knots. I only wear it, though, on "formal" occasions (like Courts of Honor) or when I want to establish some degree of experience or authority. (Weird how some people mistake experience for authority, competence, knowledge and/or skill.) Most of the time, though, I wear my "simple shirt" that has the bare minimum of patches-council strip, troop number, position, World Crest, and American flag, I believe. Our local council shop is a national store. I have never been asked for paperwork on any adult award. They run me through the ringer for youth awards, however. And I don't worry about the paperwork either. I know you're supposed to fill that out, submit it to council and all that, but I don't see the point. There are too many ways to go about it anyway. People will be honest, or they won't. I'm not worried about policing that, especially for adults.

The Great Smoky Mountains National Park is where I saw the signs. The bit I hiked was around Newfound Gap, but the signs were at the Oconaluftee Visitor Center.

Then you are doing Scouts wrong. Scouting is not a vehicle for "youth ministry" in any particular faith. I know I won't convince you, but I had just had to say it. We have five different faiths represented in our troop and I value every one of those scouts regardless of their faith. Scouting is not trying to produce good Methodists, or good Mormons, or good Muslims, or whatever. That is the the job of the clergy and the religious organization. Scouting is trying to produce good men.

We have an ASPL and a dedicated Adult Advisor for him whose sole job is recruiting. This includes the liaison responsibilities, as well as making going to Pack meetings for presentations/information sharing and for attending AOL ceremonies for Webelos crossing over to our troop.

This many times over. I always tell parents that just like every scout is different, every troop is different and it is very important to get a match between the scout and the parent. It's better if they get a friend or two to go with them. But nothing is worse for the scout or scouting to wind up in the wrong troop when a right troop is available. That's why I do not respect the idea of "feeder packs" and see no problem with "poaching." It's about the scouts, help them find the best troop for them.

The best form of recruiting that we have found is for parents of new scouts to tell the parents in their old pack how wonderful our troop is. Especially working through the "mom network". Den chiefs are a second very effective recruiting effort for us. It's a good way to showcase what kind of scouts your troop produces to the parents while giving the Webelos/Cubs the benefit of already knowing someone in your troop. Twice each year, once in the Spring and once in the Fall, we have a meeting dedicated to recruiting Webelos. We invite the Webelos of all the packs to come to our meeting. We do some stuff that might help with the AOL and we do some fun stuff and, while the boys are doing their thing, we hold a "sales pitch" and Q&A meeting with the parents. We also have a campout that we use as a recruiting function. The Webelos do not camp with us, but we invite them to come and, if they do, we provide a place for them to setup camp that is reasonably close to us. They arrive and depart , cook and eat, sleep, etc. separately from us but within eyesite. All day Saturday, then, we have a variety of activities and the Webelos are invited to participate withing the ambit of Scouting guidelines. A current, organized and useful website is a passive recruiting tool. Some parents look at our website, see our calendar, our schedule, and our history, and confirm that they are interested in taking a closer look at us. Finally, just as you are not associated with a "feeder pack", there may be packs that are not associated with a "feeder troop". Find them, establish that relationship. As to "poaching", this is not the USFL or the WNBA where troops have territorial rights over packs. People in our District "poach" all the time. And I feel like the competition makes us all better. If you think about it, "poaching" really helps a Webelo find the right troop, which makes everybody better off over the long haul--not every scout fits into every troop the same way. One obstacle we constantly battle is that our District will provide us with names and contact information for Cubmasters, but not Webelos Leaders. We find that not all Cubmasters are sufficiently conscientious or able enough to get our information to their Webelos den leaders. That is where the den chiefs and new parents can really help...they will know those names for you and can even deliver information in person. Good hunting.

We just changed from some kind of cotton shirt to a dry-fit shirt. Our logo is on them, and that's got three colors in it. We are charging $13/shirt. I think $20/shirt is a bit pricey, but if that's your biggest complaint about the troop you're in pretty good shape. The Committee Meeting is a good idea. For one thing, the troop might be trying to make a little money for a dedicated purpose or something. For example, our trailer and our truck are getting old and so we are trying to set some money aside here and there in a fund so that we have the money for that when we need it. The best place to find out that kind of thing is the committee meeting when they are discussing financials.