GrammaScout

Well, it was in the Charter Agreement about 2013...that is when some unknowledgable guys went ballistic when they read that word. And it has been paranoia ever since.

Hello out there...our 'Church' recently decided to put the Annual Budget of the Troop on the ballot for voting on at the Annual Meeting after 50+ years. This 'group' recently learned that to give a donor to the Troop a tax-deductible receipt, the Church (the CO) had to include their Tax ID number and a few of them went 'ballistic'...thinking that any 'irregularities' in the Troop Funds would flag the IRS leaving the Church open for an audit....!! This is S.O.P. for all non-profits, of course. It is my understanding that this has also been S.O.P. forever for Troops chartered by churches. Am I correct so far? How would the IRS even see any irregularities, IF there were any? We have a member who is a retired Naval Intelligence Officer and then, now, also a retired Federal Agent for the IRS. He grinned and chuckled at all this. The IRS does not go after 'small fish', he said. And our Church like nearly all Churches are considered to be 'small fish'. IF IF IF the IRS did flag something, an agent would be sent to the Church to teach how to do things correctly...rather than the paranoid thoughts that the IRS would shut-down the Church and the Pastor would go to Prison!...... Many of us also are concerned that we are asking members nearly all of whom have NO knowledge or experience working with a Troop and understanding how the funds are used or designated or 'moved over', etc. Is that some sort of 'voter fraud', perhaps?

Sorry to be so dense, but what are all these 'waves of lawsuits' you mention? I thought bankruptcy had a deadline as to claims. Documenting Troops, etc...documenting what? So people are now going to start suing the Charter Organizations where the 'issue' occured? I thought that was covered by the BSA Umbrella..... We've had the discussion wondering what would stop a family from suing the place where the Facilities are used. So not being the CO wouldn't make any difference.

The word 'own' was near the top of the Charter Agreement that used around 2010. The experienced Adults had an abstract/literal interpretation of what that meant. However, when our Council and Staff became loaded with those with zero knowledge of the policies and procedures of the BSA...they went bisurek! Our District Rep. made THREE visits to the Committee meeting to...try....to explain the umbrella liability coverage. We then moved to the extreme with the term 'OWNS and OPERATES' being used. This exemplary Troop of 50 years has functioned well for over 50 years of autonomy but with a cordial relationship to the Church. Same people went ballistic when they learned that the church TaxID number was used to give a donor a tax-deductible receipt..!!! ... that practice being standard operating procedure since as long as anyone can remember. They decided that any irregularities in the Funds would become a red light to the IRS and the Church would be audited, closed, and the Pastor sent to Prison. !!!!! Sure...so ridiculous it is ludicrous. The IRS never sees financial records of Scout troops anyway. We have a member who is a retired Naval Intelligence Officer and is now also a retired Federal Agent of the IRS. He grinned and chuckled when he heard of this 'paranoia'. The IRS does not go after 'small fish' he said which most churches are considered to be. But...they never approached him for his wisdom and expertise on the subject !! With the changes in wording and the resignation of the hostile Parish manager, we have hope this can become a smoother operation like it once was. The Lutheran Churches who Charter who have been contacted are astonished that this non-issue became a big issue. Again: When the CO Staff, Clergy, and leaders have zero knowledge about how Scouting works, this is what happens when THEY are seeing themselves as 'OWNERS and OPERATORS'.

Our Troop is rather large...we have 16 newbies signed up since about March. So...in some places those youth...and their parents are still coming. I'm glad of that...because I believe it is unethical to punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

So: Are you all saying that Districts may have their 'own' Charter Agreement not the National?

I am still here...sorry...needing to see copies of the last 5 versions of the Charter Agreement. Someone must have these or know where to find them. Thanks

I have also read that from now on, it is the District that 'owns' the Troop, the gear, and the Funds, if necessary. Finally, they got it right.

After about 60 years following Scouting, I have never heard of folks thinking that the Boy Scout Troop they sponsored was an extension of the 'church'. They do NOT need to oversee the Scout Program..hopefully, they do not. 'Owned and Operated' is not appropriate and very, very few Churches would have the manpower to 'Own and Operate'. It is also a bit 'dangerous' when the Staff person and even their Councils consist of folks who have no knowledge or working experience of the BSA program...procedures, policies, and programs. Being a 'Cub Scout' once...does not an expert make. This is what is happening right now in our Church and commotions abound with some decisions that almost punitive in nature. The word OWN is no longer in the Charter Agreement. Most successful Troops can manage just fine...and the District is available if they cannot. The misinterpretation of the scope of 'own' over the many years has caused more grief than it is worth. Please...read the 2021 Charter and put your faith in the Adult Troop Leaders.

I am very challenged in being able to 'open' a pdf. that I can copy and email. A poster stated that he had copies of about 10 versions of the Charter Agreement. Is there a way that I could also view them? thanks

Does anyone know when the word 'own' was taken out of the Charter Agreement?

It is my understanding that the increased fees are mainly due to the increase in the costs of liability coverage for the Staffs at Summer Camps, etc. and that it is not connected to the 'costs' of the bankruptcy.

Hello. I am just curious as to how it works when the Church is not the CO but the Troop uses its facilities. Did the Church refuse to Charter because of 'liability'? We recently had a similar go-round with our Church and our Troop....we are strong advocates of both by the way...but Church leadership has not been given valid info, thus the discussion.

Our Troop is chartered with our Church and when those unfamiliar with BSA policies, etc, saw the word 'own' in the prior Charters, some went ballistic and moved in the direction of 'Owned and Operated' by the Church...Long story, major distress. So: where is that Agreement with the word 'own' in it? If outdated, when did that happen? We are strong advocates of Boy Scouting. Now I read here that there are many versions of the 'Charter Agreement' and am rather confused. Isn't there just one? I do not recall any memos coming regarding the 'changes' in the Agreement year after year. Any explanations would be appreciated.

Our Lutheran Church has charted the Boy Scout Troop for nearly 50 yrs. now. About 8 years ago, with some new Staff and some new Council members...none of whom were familiar with the Program, caught the word 'own' in the Charter, and nothing has been the same since. They actually almost did not renew the Charter at one point !....major chaos. This is a stellar Troop with about 30 Eagles and more on the way. Never a 'financial' crisis or incident...etc. But these few have over-done the concept of being 'responsible' for the Troop...at one point THEY were actually going to start running the Program...and more! For the second year in a row, we are now being asked to 'vote on' the Budget of the Troop at the annual Congregational Mtg..,..because we are 'responsible'. Now about 98 of the 106 voters last year were deemed to be totally unaware of the contents of a Troop Budget..WHY and WHAT...and how that budget was managed when funds were higher or lower than expected....yet they were asked to vote on a budget about which they knew nothing. Like I said...this year will be the second time in 50 years this is being done. I struggle with 'why' and the answer given is: because WE are responsible....that implies that the Troop Leadership is not. Is this uninformed, meaningless, paranoid action? WHAT if the Congregation ever voted down a Troop Budget?....unlikely, of course. If someone wanted to 'donate funds' directly to the Troop, the check has to run through the Church system in order for the donor to receive a tax-exempt receipt. I get that. But the Scoutmaster had to appear before the Finance Committee and tell them exactly how such funds were to be used before the Church Treasurer would deposit it into their account. is this normal or common? It seems to treat the Scout Leadership as if they were children. But still...is all this 'common' in Churches who carry Charters for Troops?

I cannot fathom a Troop being able to do this. The liability alone is the biggest obstacle. And the Adult members come and go...a Board?