GrammaScout

Apparently there is a 'second' type of 'self-charter' wherein the Board applies for Non-profit status and obtains a Tax ID number. This is what our Troop is considering. But so many questions...Two DE's have adamantly advised against doing this and just reading a few posts on Forums seems to back up the advice that 'you don't want to do this'. But: A 'Board' has formed themselves and is moving rapidly with the paper work before March 31 when the extended Charter expires. Concerns are about assets, particulary the funds. Concerns about just 'who' is the boss....the Scoutmaster or the Board or perhaps the Chairman of that Board? Is the umbrella liability insurance from the BSA sufficient? There is no end to the questions and with this being so unusual we can find no answers. Any input is appreciated. thanks '

This is a very old thread and i was expecting to find a current one. We need info !! Our Troop of 50 years has been Chartered by an ELCA Lutheran Church. It has about 70 Youth and is exemplary! But with Church Leadership having zero knowledge of Scouting, they have decided that the Charter says: They own it AND They RUN it....and 'they' do not have people or time to do that so out it goes !!....black and white, dangerous thinkers.... So they will no longer sign the Charter and we need to find a new CO ASAP. They say they did not 'know' that the Troop would be disbanded Dec. 31...even though several of us DID tell them...but they know better, right? There must have been some softening because now: they are still working on a Facilities Usage Agreement, rental price TBD, and have signed the Charter but only to March 31.. A nearby smaller Lutheran Church has some interest but they must thoroughly discuss becoming a CO and that is still happening. Meanwhile Plan B: is for the Troop to Charter itself and it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing. We have been unable to find ANY info on how this is done, must be done, etc. So here I am...desperate for information.... I have read where such a Troop must declare itself a 'corporation', get a TaxID number as a non*profit and make certain all things are 'legally' correct. This sounds daunting. One of the Adult Scouters has already formed a Board...? but with no input from the rest of the Adults...?.....Two of the four members are actually members of the Church...??.....and that is not a good idea. We await answers from detailed questions to the Council...probably this coming week but no certainty there actually will be answers. The Chair of this 'Board' is actually the Church President, a person who participated in disbanding the Scouts and who voted in favor of doing it...!!!! We want him nowhere near this Troop....Does such a Board then make all decisions on 'managing' the Troop? Do they sign checks? This whole scenario is foreboding of a smaller version of 'Church people' running things....Can they just take the authority to do all this? The second person on this Board is the COR of the Churchf !! He is a scouting advocate but he has clearly been a representative of the CHURCH and rather useless to the Troop....are these two acting out of 'guilt' perhaps? We do NOT want them....This seems to be a situation where the Council must step in and set things in order...in the proper fashion. One of our sons is an Asst. Scoutmaster and he is as puzzled as to these actions as we are. We are on our knees praying that this other nearby Lutheran Church will hear the call and take us in.......We don't want to even have 'facility usage' here any longer as the 'rules' will likely be over-done if not punitive.....which we have already been seeing over the last several years. We are also 30 year highly involved members of this Church, but this has caused a schism that is likely unrepairable. This is really a 'sad-sack' post here...sorry for that. But we need help.....thanks all...

I did exhaustive research with no results. And the input from helpful Scouters here does not match with each other. There are X different Charters...no, there are Y different Charters...No, I have copies of 5, which the other guy said didn't exist.....etc. The National BSA now answers NOTHING...but refer inquirers to their Local Districts which also do not have answers. So: Mr. Johns2: What should I do next?

"Most of them have sponsored units for various altruistic reasons -- they want to support scouts or youth or the community." """ Hopefully, the church CO has enough factual info to be aware of the value of the program. It is a 'youth' ministry, but having it be a 'Lutheran Youth Ministry' is inappropriate and doesn't work...because then the Youth Minister and all the power-crazies assume that they then RUN the Troop. After 50 years of an exemplary Troop of about 70 youth, our Council has voted to dump the Charter !! Those with zero knowledge have preached that if we 'own' it, then we must 'run' it...literally. This isn't working obviously. And since the Staff and the 'power crazies' just do not have the time to do that, the Troop must go....?? They have been poisoned with misinformation and misinterpretation. They have no clue about the 'Boy-run' program. They were unaware that the Troop would disband without a Charter even though they WERE told that; so now...from some fake compassion and negative feed-back from membership, they are allowing an extension until March 31....but it had been December 31. They are still working on a 'Facility Usage' Agreement and we are worried as to the stringent 'rules' it will contain....and whatever the rental fee will be as well. Why has this taken so long? 'Either WE run it, or they go'......! Black and White thinking process that is unwelcome, and unhealthy and contention-making. There are no longer Scout-savy people on the Council or even among Staff or with Leadership in General. A sad, sad day for this Congregation....but very sad for the 70 Scouts who still ask 'what happened'? There was never any mention of this Troop in any advertising for the Church...any Newsletter or New Member information...Never mentioned from the Pulpit.....But they were not hesitant to enjoy 'credits' when they were public. The supporters of the Troop are a small group and except for me, have just remained quiet...knowing we were already beaten with this. ................Now the Troop is working on becoming their own CO....??.....there doesn't seem to be much guidance with this....and there is a 'Church Member' !!.....an anti-Charter person....who volunteered to be 'Chair' of this new 'Board'...??? Doesn't the Troop decide who is on THEIR Board????

Our Troop of 70 began 'chipping trees and wreaths' at least ten years ago and make more than enough for the years' budget needs...providing many scholorships as well. A neighbor whose business uses 'chippers' loans the chippers to us and then receives a donor receipt of agreed upon value which he then uses with his taxes. The trees are dropped off at the back of the Church. Everyone even close to the back of the church MUST wear safety googles, covered arms and gloves. Only Adults actually run the chipper unless there is a pile of smaller branches that accumulates and senior scouts with adult supervision are allowed to do it if they demonstrate they know what they are doing. The CO has never voiced any liability concerns

"Same. So we don’t go to far into swapping names and addresses, maybe a mechanism to keep it on the downlow, too. " Our Troop's fundraiser each year is getting use of a chipper donated and then advertising for Christmas tree recycling....done in the Church's back property. It raises more than enough for the activities and Scout scholarships where they are needed. The Background check fee is covered by the Troop.

"This is all part of the belief that the Church: OWNS, Operates, Manages, Directs, the Troop and every last thing it has or does. "... We do NOT find those directions in the Charter....manage? Direct? Operate?.... not

Rather extensive searches of Church/Scout History were done with former COR's, Scoutmasters, etc. and no reports of abuse or other claims were found. We do know that this Troop does not have a sexual abuse claim made. Thus the concern of litigation costs...but there is no litigation. It is an unreasonable paranoia of such. Protection of Assets of my Church is of course, important, but not for the reasons being sold. Other Denominations have asked ... The United Methodist Church Council, for example...that the Churches just extend the Charters and wait until the end of March 2022 to determine the next steps. Our ELCA Council basically said little other than be careful of what decision you make. Boy, wasn't that a huge suggestion..........Our Church has given a Facilities Agreement to the Troop...no rent for a year. That was not expected with the attitudes being shown but is something for which to be very grateful. But again: With no Charter, can they even meet...go to Camps, Advance....I believe they cannot. We suspect that many Parents/Scouts will just individually transfer to Troops who will be Chartered and this Troop will just disintegrate by natural means......But the Gear and the Trailer and the FUNDS....nothing clear about what happens there...and it should be clear. Husband and I paid for over half of a Shed and if the Scouts cede over the rest of the 'ownership', heck we are gonna haul it out of there....ha The Church would likely have no use for the Shed or the Trailer.....We pray for reason and ethical decisions.

I am told that this is not an option anymore. And for good reason.

What actually happens to a Troop without a Charter? I have been told that it simply is no longer a BSA Troop. Even with a Facilities Usage agreement....the Scouts cannot go to camps, advance, etc. Is this correct? Our Church Council just voted to end the Chartering with Troop 618...after 50 years but have offered a Facilities Agreement...rent free for one year...which surprised the living daylights out of all of us. But can they 'meet' if they aren't chartered?....Once the Charter expires, then do all the gear, trailer, and funds 'owned' by this Church automatically go back to a 'non-existent' Troop or does the Council take 'ownership' ?

I hear you. This 'Parents or Friends of....' has never been considered a wise choice.

Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions: I am aware I appear to be hysterical...ha...not yet...just SO disappointed and angry as to what you did say: People coming on board and think they can do the more right thing, but actually causing issues and contention....and dismantleing a top knotch Troop. They have not been willing to listen from the get-go. So be it...It may be that I...old Gramma Scout...AM the only person speaking out. This may sound a bit too dramatic, but I almost feel like the sacrificial lamb....ha.....that's OK... I have been encouraged by a good many who are just too timid to stand up. I have had great chats with our Council Exec....but this is all really out of his hands,...of course. This Troop does several service projects for the Church and always has. But believing that the 'church' can manage, control, direct, operate, etc....is not logical. There would need to be members willing to do such...and they certainly would require training, I hope, to give them a sense of how it works....and none of them have the interest so it really couldn't happen anyway. I appreciate your suggestions...and the reminder of the 'good' of the first 40 years....and yes, I and the others do feel we have righteous frustration....wanting things to turn back to how well it used to be....realizing now that the 'change' needs to be a new CO. Thanks again...

Oh...and this: She took information from the Background Check Forms and used it for another purpose. That is specifically forbidden by the very wording on the form! She used the private emails of the Adults which they used to be as open as possible on those forms. She did not ask. One Adult Scout used his work email ONLY on the form because it is strictly forbidden to be used for anything other than work. So the church news and announcements came to him...at work....and he was reprimanded. He complained to her more than once and was told: Well, WE own the Scouts....and all their information. ..there is more on this, but enough said. So..all of you would not have any issue with this totalitarian rule...unnecessary, for certain. The Adults for ten years have been so faithful that they committed to jump through all the hoops tossed at them.... Council President and another member come to the Committee Mtg, sit down and dispense a piece of paper and say: These are the new edicts we have for you and we hope you comply or othewise you are out of here............quote. This stuff really doesn't bother any of you ?????

This is the statement we were given : "If the troop wants to manage itself why would we sign the charter? Either it is a mission of the church and therefore the responsibility of the church, or it is independent of the church and just uses our building as a community organization."....... THIS is a black-white thinker. Either this or This...period. These folks have zero knowledge and zero working experience with the Scout Program...There used to be always a few who had experience and were great assets but no more. What I meant by gray is this: There is a cookie-cutter blue-print...but in reality all things are variable. The size of the Troop, how many Adults, urban or suburban or rural...finances...etc. But for the good operation of any Troop some of the 'Cookie cutter statements ' about how to do things must be aligned with their specifics. I am NOT talking about abuse, safety procedures, any of that..which I think you think I am. This Troop has excelled for 50 years with a minimal oversight and by members who know Scouting. Now: they have taken over the funds...the two people who must sign the checks must now be members...!! Soon the two we have will age out and we won't be able to write our own checks because there won't be any members who will do it....This Troop intends to follow all the specifications from National on 'how to do things'....but the Church feels that their 'directions, rules, edicts,' supercede all others. I suspect that you are perhaps just not familiar with a situation like this. It has sent a message of disrespect and mistrust which is not warranted........All of a sudden, the Troop Budget must be presented at the annual Mtg. and receive a vote of approval by the membership that attends...OK...but 99% of them have no clue about how funds come in and go out in Troops....different pieces of equipment need replacing and many of them...non-campers had no clue what some of the things were. Last year we had 5 people vote against the Scout budget. WHY would anyone do that? Because they hate Scouting and are making 'their statement as such'. I contacted 25 Lutheran Churches in our area plus one in New Jersey, one in Wisconsin, and one in Kansas...(THANKS to 2nd cousins) asking if they made the membership vote on the Scout Budget....every single one said: NO....and many questioned...why would they do that? HUH?....I have never heard of that. Thus we are assured that this has come from someone's sick agenda and someone with 'clout'. So the Troop does whatever they are told to do and so what. So What? It is wrong. The Parish Manager decided to keep the **Medical Forms locked in her Office ! She does not have permission from the Parents to have access to them as is clearly spelled out on the form. After she was called up on Friday nights to deliver the Forms so the Troop could leave on an outing and then come over Sunday afternoon to receive them back....she changed her mind about that part. How many more pages would you like me to write of examples? This is all part of the belief that the Church: OWNS, Operates, Manages, Directs, the Troop and every last thing it has or does. It was not like this for the first 40 yrs. They now want to call it a Ministry of the Church...it always has been in a sense to the rest of us...but now a new definition of 'Ministry'. Something they control.... Well: The Church Council just voted to NOT sign the Charter anymore. That gives the Troop of 60 boys less than 41 days less the weekends and Holidays...to find a new CO. Won't happen........so on Dec. 31 this troop doesn't exist anymore. Granting Facility Usage is pointless if they are not a 'Troop' anymore. We are hoping they can perhaps get a nearby Church to take on a Second Charter for like a year and grant facility usage. The restrictions and edicts and limitations that will be in the Agreement from the Church will be absurd. They really don't want to stay there....and This is My Church also by the way...and a remodel a decade back gave a Facility that the Troop uses and couldn't be more top notch...large rooms, big kitchen....large outdoor parking area for Trailer and Shed.....But they/we don't want to pay the price they require to use it all. These Adults have been shown disrespect that is appalling...especially coming from so-called Church people. Many of us apologize regularly to these fine folks. And the Mistrust concerning the Funds...unwarranted. Part of this began 10 years ago due to liability fears...but the liability is there no matter who is in 'Charge'. They act like if they are in charge, nothing could happen.........!! Very ignorant. We have 6 Scouts working on their individual Eagle projects....and are hopeful that policies are out there where they can continue and finish this Badge in spite of the Church. So your reply is appreciated and makes sense...if it were for a different Troop. thanks

ELCA Lutheran

Gramma Scout is back,.,,and not happy. As has been expected, our Church Council with a unanimous vote will NOT be re-newing the Charter we have had for 50 years! The Charter expires Dec. 31 leaving less than 41 days for this Troop of 60 to find a new CO. Only an extreme miracle can accomplish this. Of course, the size is working against us as very few sites can handle that many Scouts. I assume it will split either in half or more likely with individual transfers x 60. There are nearby Churches that may consider chartering two Troops just having meetings, etc. on different dates. Folks are quite upset...and anxious but still trying to stay calm for the benefit of the Youth. I had posted way back about the growing attitude of 'we OWN and Operate ... and manage, etc...the Troop. They now manage the 'funds'. There has been a sudden increase in the number of Past Presidents and other leadership people who have zero knowledge and zero working experience in Scouting. This began 10 years ago....and some of us have lived in trepidation since then. There is this absurd thought that there are two choices: Either WE own and control it or we do not Charter and it will be just another comunity Youth program. Black and white thinkers often have other problems as well...ha I have tried and tried to explain that they operate in the Grays...that it is different than any other program with which they 'might' be acquainted but to no avail. They have told us often that THEY own the Trailer, the Shed, the Gear...and all the Funds. We are hopefull that on December 31, that attitude will be gone but aren't sure what they may come up with !! They are mentioning a Facility Usage Agreement but the edicts and restrictions that will be in it, will not be welcomed. We really do not want to be here any more......And: without a signed Charter we are not a Troop anyway so we cannot 'meet' anywhere. They still do not get this...! The Troop Committee was going to just ask for an extension of the Charter...but we cannot fathom they would do that. What would be the minimum time to find and set up a new CO? I apologize for this 'sad' writing. I have a grandson working on his Eagle Project and his Dad has already found the ways for him to continue and be awarded this Honor without this Troop. Neither our Troop nor this Church have had any abuse claims made and research and chats with former Scoutmasters and Council members could not find any that might still be out there. This is all about protection of Assets...as should be done, but with reason, logic, sanity, adequate knowledge, and ... some caring. They are 'afraid' of the 'dark', of outside shadows, etc....and there is no way to communicate. So: moving on is a good option...just into unknown territory. Any suggestions, tips, assurances you can offer would be so appreciated....thanks for listening. Gramma Scout...

I have read about ‘new’ Charter Agreements for 2021. One that is a ‘Facilities usage only’ with the District being the ‘CO’ and ‘owner’. The second one being more typical of prior years. We have a Scouter on our Church Council who states he has seen the 2021 Charter And that it is exactly like the prior one of more recent years. Could do someone explain all this please?

This info came from ScoutingWire: June 4, 2021 Over the last year, we have seen the Scouting community come together, even while being physically apart, to bring solutions, relief and comfort to those in need. Scouting continues to be a vital partner for communities across the country. The value of Scouting is undeniable for those within the program and the greater public, and the Boy Scouts of America is committed to continuing to offer this unmatched opportunity to young people and families nationwide. It is important that we all reach out to Scouting families who might have left the program due to pandemic reasons and invite them back. We should also be thinking about how to invite new families to join. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has worked to keep the membership fee as low as possible. Unfortunately, operating costs have continued to rise, and COVID-19 has compounded the need to increase the fee to maintain the program. To ensure we have the resources to fulfill the promise of Scouting, the updated national membership fee is $72 for Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts participants $45 for Exploring participants $30 for council-paid memberships $45 for all adult volunteers (includes cost of background check) $75 for a unit charter fee The membership fees will take effect August 1, 2021, for the 2021-2022 program year. The one-time $25 joining fee for new program participants in Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts is still required; however, there is no joining fee for Exploring participants, participants previously registered in any BSA program, those transferring from one program to another, council-paid memberships, or adult volunteers. See an infographic explaining these updates. The national membership fee helps pay for the cost of essential services, including program resources, liability insurance for those participating in approved Scouting activities, youth protection and other local council resources. National BSA will also continue to develop and improve resources that support our volunteers and youth members through online registration, Scoutbook, and national initiatives that bring us all together. Across the country and in each of our communities, we know that Scouting remains one of the most valuable investments we can make in young men and women today so they can become the leaders we will turn to tomorrow. Our dedicated volunteers, staff, and Scouting families make this possible. Thank you for continuing to support one of the most valuable opportunities available to young people today. FAQ Q: Why are the fees increasing? A: The national annual membership fee is increasing by $6, about 50 cents per month, because the costs associated with Scouting, including the cost of liability insurance, continue to increase and the organization is not able to subsidize the increased costs as it had in the past. Q: When will this increase take effect? A: The updated membership fees will take effect August 1, 2021, for new members in the 2021-2022 program year. Q: Is Scouting still a good value? A: Absolutely! While most extracurricular activities are seasonal, Scouting is a year-round program that remains one of the most valuable investments we can make to support young men and women today so they can become the leaders we will turn to tomorrow. For most of our participants, the new national membership fee amounts to $6.00 a month, which is an enormous value when you consider that many seasonal extracurricular activities often start at $100 for programs that last a few weeks. Q: Does the fee increase apply to council-paid memberships? A: Council-paid memberships will be $30 annually for youth members in fully funded council-paid units for low-income communities. Q: What will the money be used for? A: The annual national membership fee and new-member joining fee help pay for the cost of essential services, including program resources, liability insurance for those participating in approved Scouting activities, youth protection and other local council resources. Q: Is this increase being implemented to cover the cost of the additional background checks? A: While the cost of background checks is paid for by the national organization, that is not the driver of this increase. Q: Will membership fees go toward funding a victims compensation trust? A: No. The national annual membership fee and the new-member joining fee will help pay for the cost of essential services, including program resources, liability insurance for those participating in approved Scouting activities, youth protection and other local council resources. Q: What measures has the national organization taken to offset its financial challenges? A: In addition to ongoing efforts to streamline and simplify the organization, the national organization has taken a number of steps to address its financial challenges, which include multiple rounds of reductions over the past year. These were in addition to ongoing consolidation of departments and elimination of some significant vendors for the most effective utilization of resources in support of Scouting. Q: In addition to the national membership fee, my council is implementing a council fee. Is that allowed? A: Starting August 1, 2021, councils can also choose to charge a fee up to, but no more than, the national membership fee – up to $72 for participants in Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts; up to $45 for participants in Exploring and up to $45 for adult members. The council fee can include local insurance costs (i.e., accident, property, etc.), as well as the cost to administer unique local programming. Units can continue to assess activity fees. Q: Will the national membership fee continue to increase? A: Although no decision about future increases has been made, the cost of operating our organization and services increases every year. Should it be necessary to increase fees in the future, the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America has agreed to evaluate the needs and make such decisions, whenever possible, at the National Annual Meeting so that decisions can be announced with as much lead time as possible to allow councils and units to plan accordingly. .................................................... We thought that this statement was clear enough. 'Evaluate the needs' is a forthright statement. Costs for many things have gone up...I think it is possible that they just do not know the full impact of the bankruptcy claims and effects and they are doing the best they can with limited facts. We are involved with two different Troops, both Lutheran sponsored...one of them recycles Christmas trees every January with the generous donation of the use of a 'chipper' from a neighbor. The funds raised from this more than cover the financial needs of the Troop. This now gives them the opportunity to cover some of the costs of the Scouts including a good many Summer Camp Scholarships. I would highly recommend it. ...

Dear Cynical: ''Voter Fraud' was an off the cuff comment from a couple of others. They were thinking of it as making a group of members (the quorum) vote on something of which they had no knowledge and therefore were not informed voters. The questions asked last year proved that part, and it is logical they would NOT have any knowledge.

I've canvassed twelve Church CO's in my area...and none of them, like you, has never heard of such a thing. This came from those I described earlier, Staff, Council, and Elected Leaders...who had never heard of a Church CO preparing a TAX-deductible receipt for a donor and of course, using the non-profit Tax-ID number of the Church. It just happened to have come about when they had just learned about the 'own' concept of the CO's. They became paranoid that some 'irregularity' in the Troop Funds...would trigger the IRS resulting in an audit of the CHURCH....and' jokingly saying that 'they would close the doors and send the Pastor to Prison'...except that it wasn't all joking. They were overtaken by baseless paranoia. Does the IRS ever see a Troop Budget?....of course, not. All non-profits give tax deductible receipts to donors using THEIR TaxID numbers to make it valid. It might be said that it is a 'daily occurence' somewhere across the US....This Troop asks for one...one per year....Once they needed two. We are embarrassed by the ignorance and distressed with the fear-mongering. After 50 years, to suddenly start this, seems to emit an essence of mistrust and suspicion. So: No one out there whose CO is a Church, has ever heard of putting the Troop Budget up for a congregational vote at their Annual Meeting........! correct???

mrjohns2: Thank you for checking...but where then was the 'word' own that was the impetus for a contentious meeting with Staff, Clergy, Church Council...." I remember when the President at that time came up to us and waved/shoved the Charter in my husbands face...yes...and yelled something about didn't you and the other past presidents even read this before you signed it?..........................pertaining to the word 'own'... My husband had served two terms as President and also two terms as President at a nearby Lutheran Church whose Troop is managed by themselves was a Scout, all three sons are Eagles and he has worked for countless years in some Adult capacity or another..We have three grandsons, also on the Trail....I think he has read the Charter many times....eh? I just don't get this. Could we have had a charter made just by our District? I don't know how such things work... This word 'own' was grabbed by a power-hungry Church Manager and she claimed every last thing was 'hers' or 'ours'..as in the Church. She even took the Medical Records and locked them in a drawer in her locked Office... After being called to the Church several times in the early evening or the early morning to unlock and give them to the Scoutmaster as the Troop prepared for an outing, she eventually gave up that effort of abuse of power.

I have never heard a thing about Council Execs wanting to have direct control of Units. Why ever would they? Directions and 'suggestions' are plentiful to tell Troops 'how to do everything'. However: It should be common sense that each Troop is a bit different than the next one. Size, funding, volunteers, location, etc. and the 'management' are all up for 'adjustment' depending upon such variables. Council Execs could never keep up with the differences.