GrammaScout

to add: The Church with the assistance of this COR...gets the blame for not following the regulations with adding a Girls' Troop....not the Troop. .The thinking was: out of the blue, by the way, this: IF we Charter it, then WE own it. IF we own it, then we must RUN it. No body has any interest in RUNNING it, so we must get rid of it. ! After 50 yrs. of harmonious working together...this is what just jumped out at us. This Troop doesn't need outside help from anywhere...they are exemplary...but the word 'OWN' has ruined it. They planned to RUN the Girls' Unit as well...but realized THEY would need to find or to be...more volunteers. They required the two check signers be Church Members....and they didn't feel there were any more people in the Congregation who would step forward to make it work. It was the Church who announced how IT was going to be...with the strong implication that you either do it or you are out........

I have a bit of experience with Microbiology, and it is generally held that improper hand washing is the major source of such bugs causing illness. Folks must learn to wash and wash well...in between the fingers, etc.

We are still waiting for a return call from the District to inform us as to the 'why' of this? The Unit did NOT put him in any position, actually were hoping that fhe forced move to a new Chartering Organization would have 'lost him'...

Hi. Please explain the details of why this Unit is operating 'outside of the separate units for boys and for girls rule? I am not totally familiar with the wording.

Sorry, but there is a comment further down that describes something similar and it killed the Troop. First off: it is NOT the Church's money !! The money is from Fundraisers and from Parents and/or Donors. People who have NO clue about how Scouting is supposed to work, who have NO understanding of how Troop Budgets work, etc....should not be qualified to 'vote' on anything regarding Troop funds. ..... Voter Fraud? a term suggested TO me by another...the thought being that there would be people voting on something about which they knew nothing....making them ineligible voters, just like some organizations have broken voting rules........not the best, but I understood his point at the time he said it.

We have NEVER had a Unit Commissioner but now we suddenly have one! Our Troop is 50 years old...exemplary...90 Scouts including about 20 girls...many, many Eagles. We do not have to do any active recruiting. All of a sudden: we have a Unit Commissioner...? However do we need one? There must be many other Troops that COULD use some guidance. This person has put himself 'in charge'. He sat in for the Committee Chair when she has been unable to attend...is that kosher? Doesn't that positon require a person to be registered with the Troop?..............This person has been the COR for the Church which has now discarded this Troop...troop moved and welcomed at another Lutheran Church. He is no longer a COR. He has represented the 'Church', never the Troop....How has this happened?

I’m behind. Does this ‘new’ Charter-arrangement apply only to UMC sponsored(?) Troops?

Are there any such 'waves' ?

Our 50 year old Troop 618...with about 70 boys and 15 girls....was ditched by those spreading false information and inciting paranoia enough that the Council has just voted to stop Chartering....50 years. Pardon my sermon here, but in the eyes of God, no one sin is worse than another....that idea comes from us. So: Abuse of a young man and lies and false witness to get rid of a 50 year Troop...are both sins. We recoil at the 'abuse' one but look away at the other one. .......... A Nearby Lutheran Church somewhat accidently received word of the need of a CO for this Troop....and they jumped at it ! New Welcome and Friendly and Supportive CO for Troop 618, Beaverton, Oregon. That prayer was answered, whether you all believe that or not. It is a small church but has a Pre-School and Kindergarden so has a huge Gym and a huge Parking Lot...!! And those who sign checks do not have to be Members of the Church, unlike before. There were no 'records' in thowe 50 years of any abuse charges. There were about 6 Scoutmasters and 5 COR's interviewed none of whom had any knowledge of any abuse. That doesn't ensure that there wasn't any, but none of memory or record. In fact, so far there has been but one claim made in the Synod (Diocese) of our Lutheran ELCA...and it is not vetted...and may not be. But building on paranoia and false info .....Council members were 'afraid' to continue. Obvioulsy the only one in the State and Snyod who were spooked. The harrassment of the leaders of this Troop was deplorable with new hoops to jump through being a constant...the suspicion being that they could harrass enough that the Troop would just leave on their own and then 'no blame' for those men. Except we all knew....sorry., this particular incident will never have the justice it is due and I am 'trying' to move on. Hooray for Scouting! Hooray for those who are 'trying' to accomodate the multitude of demands and comjplaints out there. We must help.

50% reduction in membership?.... You mean in the 'Catholic Church'?

Thank you. This is what i have been told by LDS neighbors in Scouting. I would just say that if it is really an LDS Youth Meeting, it is NOT a Boy Scout Meeting and is deceptive in calling it that. *****-For what it’ I suppose if a particular non-LDS kid were engaging in particularly disruptive behavior, then at some point we may have had to pull the plug; but I never saw anything like that happen.***** I am a bit puzzled about your comment here above: So are you saying that if an LDS Scout was engaging in particularly disruptive behavior they would NOT dismissed? So FWIW—even as a Mormon myself, I have no idea why one would want to limit troop membership to adherents to the denomination of the chartering organization. I’m a bit of a libertarian at heart, so I prefer to see the COs given the option—but I can’t imagine why they’d want to take it.

The program IS the safest it has ever been. Our experience was that those 'Attorneys' have NO clue of what is really happening....nor does anyone. "..distancing from Boy Scouting'..?? no reason..........

Since when do we 'require' that Scouts must participate in Church activities??.....They have joined the BSA NOT the Church !!! Chartering means Sponsoring....which obviously now has 17 explainations as to how WE all think that is supposed to work... Do you really not want YOUR Scouts to be around Protestants? If so, I think you have a problem.

Our Troop of 50 years has had no claims of abuse...and input from all former Scoutmasters and COR's has validated that. So this fear about not being covered by the insurance of the BSA simply was not a factor inthe decision to 'dump' this Troop of 70. Your statement that the BSA insurance ONLY clicks in after that of the CO's...is contrary to what we have been told by our Council...Taking more control over the Scout Troops does WHAT exactly? It has no connection to any 'funny business' or 'damage', etc. that may occur.

There are clearly two very different takes on this. The BSA is considered a Community Youth Program....not a Catholic youth ministry. It IS a ministry of course...but THE program in NOT a Catholic one or a Lutheran one, it is one that respects and encourages religious beliefs and participation. I cannot fathom that parents who practice THEIR faith in one denomination are going to accept having their Scout become part of another denomination just so he can be in the Program. it becomes discriminatory which I thought we were supposed to teaching non-discrimination. Exposure to different people, cultures, beliefs, etc. is what the program is partly about...yes?? An atheist parent is going to allow his son to discover Christianity using the Boy Scouts???.. Lets look at the Girl Scouts. Up until 1993, their Oath and Promise,etc. included the words about 'God. But about that time there was an uprising of all these parents whose girls wanted to join...for the fun activities, be with friends, etc. They complained about any reference to 'God' and so the GSA dropped the requirement to say anything about 'God'...They can substitute any name they want in its place...Elvis or themselves. This program succumbed to the pressures of the secular segment. Some parents removed their girls. At least by those in Christianity, it was viewed as taking a downward step in ethics....and a far distance from the values of the founders.,

Whereever have you found an official statement stating that a Church CO CAN require that the Scouts be of the same denomination? Horrible! That was done only by the Mormons because THEY made the Scout program part of their youth programs. If you were a member and the 'bishop' told you you would now be the Instructor for sky-diving, you had to comply or lose your TR etc. Do you NOT realize that Scouts have their own denominations..?? It would be the end of Scouting if this was done. It is contrary to ALL the principles in the program since its inception.

I understand that Troops are allowed very little in 'selective membership'. Atheists are not allowed to join of course because the Policy is that the Scout must believe in a power higher than himself. Although they lie and get in anyway. Of course, if you are an atheist, you operate on different values anyway. A Scout with a history of being 'trouble'...is not automatically allowed to join either. Other than that, any selectivity in membership would be quite contrary to the policies of the Program.

Are you certain that there ARE 'waves of lawsuits'?....And, are not the CO's covered by the umbrella policies of the Council?

Thanks for your opinion although it reveals that you are greatly mistaken about the 'Christianity' of the Boy Scouts Program of the USA. The requirement is that a Scout must have a belief in a higher power. For a long time, the majority were those who believed in the 'Christian God'. The values and principles of the program align well with Christian teachings....but also with Jewish, Hindu, Muslim teachings...all who have a belief in a higher power than themselves. Atheists are not eligible although we KNOW of Scouts and Adults who lied to get in. There are Troops that are all Jewish or all Muslim, etc. likely sponsored by a house of worship or a business of their own denominations. And that works, that is OK. Scouts can earn the religious award given in their denomination while in a Troop that is predominantly of another. If a Church...like ours tried to do...puts the Scout Troop under the Youth Ministry of the Church...there is nothing but problems. In our case, the Youth Minister...a female...had NO knowledge whatsoever but yet presented this 'plan' that essentially made the Troop a 'Lutheran Youth Activity'. Parents may not necessarily want their Scouts to be that close to a denomination that is not theirs...that is their right. It becomes run by the Youth Minister, not the Scout Committe, and certainly not the Scouts. Religion is but a small part of a huge program of multitudes of activities. Any Church member including that Youth Minister who is assigned to become part of the 'Committee', attend outings perhaps, must be trained...and no member wanted to 'go that far'. Other Youth in the Church could not participate in the activities unless they became a Scout...and that led to some friction when they saw the many things the Troop did as compared to the regular Youth program. I believe that it is the job of the CO to 'oversee' from a distance. Meet and make friends with all the Scouting Adults...come to a meeting once or twice...reveal the presence but not 'corporate control'. Years back it was policy that every new Church President and perhaps others would connect with the Scoutmaster and those on the Committee. That stopped about 10 years ago...the beginning of the nasty attitude that led to the dumping of this Troop of 70. It is not a 'Christian' organization...although many see it as that. It is compatible with Christian teachings. And that is all it has to be.

Well done. Your examples here reveal the range of the 'interpretation' of Charter Instructions. Our experience with three Lutheran churches has been more of the first example...but the fourth and latest, more like the last example...all from having church leadership be people who have NO clue about the program, its policies, programs or how it is managed !! "We don't have the Staff to run the Troop' so it must go"...and it has and picked up by a nearby Lutheran Church, much smaller, but with a huge Gym and they are thrilled and honored to do so. The Pastor is familiar with Scouting...as are several members. The dumping of this exemplary Troop of 50 years...for no real reason...is already in the grape vine and it isn't positive. So be it.

But there MUST be a more clear definition of what 'use' really means...and it will be somewhat different for each CO...I still refer to Churches, here. We 'use' the Scouts to do some landscape work every year...does that work? I guess I shall remain dense because I cannot fathom how a Church can 'set up' the Program of a Scout Troop. They can oversee it, of course. We always have had a couple of male members who 'guide' these outdoor projects. What to do...where, etc? But does this say that the Executive Church Committee, picks out the Camp for the Summer every year? Does the CO decide on the Fundraisers for the year? Does the CO tell the Scouts where and when to distribute flyers on food drives? Our District has neighborhoods mapped out? IF the CO doesn't like the neighborhood, do they then pick their own...causing another Troop to make other plans? Does the Church President keep track of which Adults need to refresh training and track them to make sure they get it?....ETC. Does an activity idea from the SPL get bumped if the Church President doesn't like it? I am not being saracstic here...I just do not follow what having the 'CO run the Troop, the Program' means ????

The CO is NOT required to use their Troop as part of THEIR Youth Mission. It can stand by itself. 'Use'...does NOT automatically mean 'run' it. It means that it 'uses' it...in some way...to further Youth Ministries. Just by being the C O and supporting the BSA they ARE supporting Youth. You must realize that all Troops are 'different'...the size, the location...rural or urban...what part of the US...any volunteers from the CO...or are they all parents? The Charter is worded such that any of these situations can mold their Troop to fit the situation. After 50 years, we find now that we no longer have any former Scouts on our Leadership Board. Making decisions when they are uniformed or ill-informed is rather dangerous. The Adult Leaders must have a second Background Check done fopr the Church and the COR and the Scoutmaster and the Church Executive Committee do a brief exam of the qualifications of each. For the uninformed Leadership to actually 'pick' the Adults is absurd...they don't even know what good qualifications are. The Scout Troops are 'Boy run'....I am sure you may have heard that. They cannot possibly be' Boy Run' if the Church is doing it !! The CO to 'set up the program'...I don't think so. Not if they have no clue what a Scout Program even looks like. Giving CO's the hint that THEY run it...is a monumental mistake. Our Church Council has just voted to destroy the exemplary Troop of 75 which has run very well for the last 50 years. They say they don't have 'time or staff' to run it. No one told them that they had to...except for the terrible misinterpretation of the Charter wording. They have not 'run it' for 50 years. Why now? This has caused some major contention in this Church. There must be a way to write a Charter so that this does not continue to happen.