cyclops

I think skeptic's approach is by far the best. Know the boy. Know the family. Work with them. Flexibility. It requires fair judgment on the part of the leader rather than servile (and thoughtless) adherence to the letter of the 'law'.

NJCubScouter, it's Thanksgiving! Have a happy one. And don't let the 'turkeys' get you down - I think you did the right thing.

Eagle94-A1, I agree. I'm not sure the time frame is something I'd like to predict but I see the trend as well and I have no problems with it. From the other thread I also tend to agree that if membership was left to the CO with respect to gender as well, the 'hit' to GSA might still happen but GSA would have a tough time forcing BSA to enforce a 'no girls' policy, seeing as how GSA hasn't opposed the inclusion of girls in most every program except Cubs and Boy Scouts, especially if BSA's approach was merely 'hands off' local decisions for membership. In the marketplace of youth programs GSA has to compete and if their programs are not competitive, then the market should work the way markets work. It would be a powerful incentive to them to 'open' their programs as well. If BSA did allow that level of local control, GSA might view the move as a sort of 'hostile takeover' but in fact it would merely be an adaptation by BSA which would allow a more-free market/democratic approach in which individual boys and girls could choose more freely what kind of youth program they'd like to join. As for teen silliness, true enough. But to me that sort of thing seems inevitable whether they're mixed or not. We just have to keep them alive long enough for their brains to develop into something more rational (yeah, I know: wishful thinking for some of them). P.S. the cookie/energy bar thing is merely a distraction. I'd like to see the jury's reaction to the argument that they can't tell the difference between a cookie and an energy bar. Whoa! I just noticed that I'm now a 'senior member'. How the heck did that happen? I guess I'm going to have to gum those energy bars now.

Nothing political? C'mon, look at that original post and explain how there isn't anything political about it. Seems pretty obvious to me. If you can read what Seattlepioneer wrote voicing his opinion about liberals finding another way to hate BSA as non-political, you're going to have a steep hill to climb trying to explain that to me. Flatly stating there is nothing political in the OP doesn't thereby make it so. It's incumbent on you to explain why. You didn't.

....waking up....what? huh?

Gumbymaster, you're right about that. Courteous essentially is the same. My bad. SeattlePioneer, you are also correct regarding their capacity to mess up their own system. In contrast, the Obamacare web site is both massive and complex...and the Obamacare website is working now. How's that for a comparison? What is the conclusion? BSA is even less efficient and less competent than the federal government, lol. And BSA gets paid more! LOL! [insert maniacal laughter here]

There is no 'Polite' point of 'The Law'. They owe you nothing, at least in their view. Something didn't 'compute' so the process kicked them out. It's up to you to follow up and seek some kind of explanation or resolution. At least that's the way it's been explained to me.

Start with one Hedgehog. Now add a dash of JoeBob. Bon Appétit! Great recipe for adult outdoor training!

Krampus, when you say that you live among them, what exactly does that mean? Are you in Irving, are you at the HQ? Or are you talking about those politicians?

GMRScout, the reason I asked was that years ago my company treated me to a corporate leadership course for a solid week. I was told that the consultant doing the course was paid $800 per hour so I'm hoping that it contained everything that a corporation could want in a leadership course. And I can't think of very much in that course that I would apply to managing or leading this unit. Most everything I've gained, I've gained from more experienced leaders in this unit and those nearby...and first-hand experience. I'm somewhat skeptical about the benefits available from Woodbadge.

My doc has literature from the Christian ultra-conservatives/fundamentalists. He's a nice guy and a decent doc. I'm also grateful that I've only needed him to do things like pull stitches or give innoculations...wouldn't want to push it.

This one caught my eye. Really? Care to offer more detail?

Yes, blw2, I suspect that buried in those many thousands of posts and countless tens of thousands of words are some genuine good ideas. So...have you read all 7000+ posts? Me neither. I did read about his admitted struggles. His words, not mine. The fact that other youth groups are doing well is evidence that he is not the source of the problem, that's true. But it isn't necessarily evidence that he has the solution either or else he might use what works for one group to overcome the struggles of the others. But he has not shared those words of wisdom with us here, not even after 7000+ posts and tens of thousands of words. OK, to get with the new tangent about chaperoning middle school children, I went with the entire 8th grade class (about 80 students) on an overnight trip to an urban area and the ratio was two students per chaperone. And STILL someone managed to get their teeth knocked out. That kind of thing is just unavoidable to some extent. But three adults with 120 students...whoever is in charge is hostage to fate. TwoCubDad, I agree with your approach. I have long understood that the more executives are paid, the more they work for the money and not the actual goals. And that big money as well tends to attract 'talent' whose interests are primarily the money. Worse, those who ARE in that kind of mode tend to value things in terms of dollars and things that cost more are worth more. Volunteers (who pay their way in many ways) are worth nothing to those executives...because volunteers are NOT paid. But overall I'm of the opinion, like Sentinel 947, that if things are going well locally, that's really all that counts, or most of it. As for the solution to those who think they have a problem, I look in my mirror and have no clue as well. Things here are going well so I'm not even sure that BSA needs to grow at all. Why would we care? Why would we do the heavy lifting of growing an organization that is, as TwoCubDad astutely noted, is already top heavy with overpaid execs? I say let it wither some. Drive the percentage parasites out of the organization and then let it be what it ought to be. As for woodcraft, BSA has no monopoly on that. If BSA went away tomorrow, my CO would still be able to run a youth program with all that stuff. No problem. Actually, it would be even cheaper to run, no uniforms, no overpriced stuff to buy (or sell, lol) and we'd still have all the equipment!

I checked with our COR and IH regarding the coed topic. They're all for it. They consider the whole liability thing to be a dishonest smokescreen for just not wanting girls involved (their interpretation, not mine). This CO already has ample insurance and the measley secondary coverage by BSA is probably never going to be on the radar screen anyway. The CO already has outings involving everyone (yes, even including those dreaded girls) and has a nice fat insurance policy to cover all that liability. The troop and pack are merely more of the same thing as far as they're concerned. That said, I'm going to discuss the possibility of having joint campouts and other outings so the girls can do the same things as the boys. If this idea gets some traction I'll let you know how it works out.

It's YOUR scouting unit. If you can't figure it out, why do you expect someone else to clean it up for you?

Saw a coed troop today. I'm not sure if they're doing this for real or just allowing females to join in but the girls were wearing the same class B uniforms and selling the popcorn and I have to tell you - the girls are better at sales than the boys. It looked like a troop and a pack had combined forces to sell popcorn at a farmer's market. They were doing pretty well too. I asked the leader if the girls went on outings with the boys and he said (quietly) yes they do. Interesting. Sounds like another case of 'avowed' as opposed to not 'avowed' - out of sight, out of mind, or maybe 'elephant in the room'. LOL. I thought the unit looked just great, they were having a great time and working as a team. All good.

You seem to presume two things: 1) that the decline would not have happened anyway for any reasons, and 2) that you seem to 'know' what the problem is and how to solve it.

Our 'territory' is shared by at least three packs and it is defined by the distance that parents are willing to travel to get to den or pack meetings. That means a radius of about 10 miles or so. Recruiting is done by all of the packs presenting at a 'roundup' in late summer or early fall. In one case the church chartering organization has an expectation that the families of that church will go to the pack that they charter. In another case the chartering organization (another church) has almost none of their families in the unit they charter. Other packs are a mixture. It's very confusing to parents, I should add. They want to know what the difference is and THAT is a tough question.

Mashmaster, thank you for sharing that. Your church must be a very open and welcoming church and I'm glad for that. Do you think they will continue with BPSA? It sounds like BPSA is working very well.

I'm too new to have been acquainted with your mom but after reading what the others wrote here, I can see that she was a wonderful person and will be missed by everyone. Every loss of a parent brings a deep sense of loss, as I know from personal experience. I offer my sympathy.

A few years ago I was asked to give a technical presentation to a lay public group. It happened to be scheduled for the evening of 11/11. So I took the opportunity to work into the presentation at the beginning a remembrance honoring all veterans and service members. The response was startling. The audience reacted as if they had been completely unaware of both the significance of the date and what it commemorated as well as what seemed to be discomfort that I would take that opportunity to honor those who had given (or were giving) service to our country. So I just went on into the scheduled presentation.

NJCubscouter, I do salute your patience. You are obviously frustrated by all this argument for (as you say) literally decades, the waste of time and words and yet - here you are continuing to cast pearls, I'm guessing in the hope that someone might yet feel the issue is resolved. I salute you.

That's what Fred wrote, that it is discrimination. He isn't denying that fact.

My bad. Gotta get a new monocle. You wrote campsite and I read campfire. Sorry. It's not exactly the same, but it works in a similar way with my hearing. A while back my wife told me, "Go ahead, GET a motorcycle" and I actually thought she had given permission. Boy was I wrong.

Is there something wrong with running around a campfire? Seems like that's an opportunity to wear them out. And it's a campfire after all. Fire. It might be nighttime but around the fire is not dark unless it's almost 'out'.