Adamcp

Hmmm. So I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, and I say that it is not a hoax. So we can establish that we are both intelligent and we can both piss, but I imagine that such a contest is not the way to solve this disagreement. If anyone thinks that a transgendered person feels entitled, they are missing the fact that most of these folks accept fully that life would be MUCH easier for them if they could happily live as the gender they were born. It is psychologically painful to be forced to be someone who truly feel you are not. It is not hard for me to imagine what it would be like if I were forced to live as a woman. Professionals are slow to decide and slow to act to ensure that the few cases that may represent a "phase" are not acted upon precipitously and impulsively. There are very few cases where a "temporary phase" was later acknowledged, at least of which I am personally aware, although after the publicity garnered by Caitlin Jenner, I imagine that there may be some more, and I am taking that into consideration. If you have not spoken with a transgendered individual and listened to their experience, I do not know how you can speak with authority on the topic. And if your authority is the Bible (which I only say because other's have posted quotes from Scripture above), a wonderful Book to be sure (the most meaningful book ever written), then we will likely not be able to bridge any gap between us. I have read your other posts, have no question that you are a wonderful Scouter, and that your boys are better off for your influence in their lives, but we will not bridge this gap. The transgendered individuals I know (all outside of scouting) do live fully as their gender identity, and the guy I know best would have made a great Scout, if he had so wanted to be one. I would have welcomed him into my troop if membership guidelines allowed. Scouts can be a place where someone can truly feel they belong to something greater than themselves - to Scouting, to their troop, and even better to their patrol. I think all adolescents need that feeling that they are part of something and that they belong. I would want that feeling for everyone. And for a transgendered person who wants to camp, hike, learn first aid, etc., I would love for them to feel they can belong to a Patrol and a Troop. Best wishes and Happy New Year to all.

Teens cut themselves because it regulates their emotions. How? One hypothesis suggests that the self-injury stimulates a parasympathetic nervous system response, which produces a paradoxical calming effect in the face of extreme emotions. It is the opposite of the fight or flight response (sympathetic nervous system). The parasympathetic nervous system calms emotions, digests food, creates hormones, conserves oxygen when swimming under water (ever notice you often have a calming effect when you are diving and swimming underwater, same effect). Cutting is often believed to be "for attention", but it much less often functions to communicate anything to another person. It is most commonly hidden from family and friends, and is intensely personal. It is logical (people feel better after cutting), even if incomprehensible to non-cutters. Surgery does not at all create a parasympathetic nervous system effect. I would encourage all readers to consider that, if you had the chance to speak to individuals who could explain to you their experience of living with a biological gender that is discordant with the gender they experience themselves to be, you may have a different perspective on gender identity at the end of the conversation. I would never encourage anyone to mutilate their body, but yes, I do believe that gender identity issues are a real thing, and for those people it is not at all an issue of seeking attention. In fact, the main goal of these folks is to draw the least amount of attention to themselves that they can. Exceptions, sure. But still quite rare to begin with.

It is not at all typical to begin hormone treatment or surgery at age eight. In cases where an individual's gender identity is considered to be clearly established, psychological stability is assessed, and the individual has been prepared for the slow steps that are taken, pediatric endocrinologists are starting to recommend acceptance of hormone treatments at earlier ages, including middle school ages. Outcomes are considered to be better when hormone treatment is started earlier with regard to psychosocial adjustment and with regard to reduction in the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics (reduced height, reduced muscle mass, reduced facial hair in individuals who identify as female, and reduced breast development and increased height and muscle mass in individuals who identify as male). Some of these hormone treatments have permanent effects, so the decision is not taken lightly, and steps taken are arduous to assure that the gender identity is indeed inconsistent with biological gender. And Sentinel, effeminate behavior or interests would typically not be considered reason to question gender identity.

Gender identity and sexual desire (or orientation) are completely separate issues. In fact, biological gender (biology and genetics), gender identity (who I am), gender expression (what I show the world), and sexual orientation (who I love) are completely separate and independent characteristics of an individual. None are exclusively binary. And the development of one's gender identity is most often clearly traced back to ages much younger than eight years old.

So, the follow up from my original post about reorganizing patrols and patrol leader elections goes like this: It took me several times of tossing it towards the boys before I got much of a response regarding the Scouts developing their own patrols, although they did express a desire to change the current patrols (without coming up with much of a plan to do so). But it was still a struggle to get these boys to think outside the box of what they have been used to so far. For example, even this past Saturday, the SPL said, "I just think the Scoutmaster should make the patrols." Another boy said, "Friends shouldn't be in patrols together. They'll never get anything done." As I am the SM, both times, I paused and took a breath before responding, and then tried to convey calmly that I trusted the boys in the troop more than that. So I think we found a "next step" solution (with my personal hopes that there will be even more "next steps" down the line). Previously, the adults had made the patrols and the SPL had then assigned roles within the Senior Patrol. Tonight, the SPL and the four current PLs formed the new patrols, which included determining patrols for the 15 newly crossed over Scouts from the Cub Pack. I might have hoped for even more discussion and empowerment of even more of Scouts, but I stayed true to the goal of letting the Scouts make the decision. The SPL and PLs worked rather well together overall. Next week the patrols will conduct their own patrol leader elections. The SPL then wanted to "promote" the four current patrol leaders to the Senior Patrol. Here was my only exerted influence. The troop culture has supported this idea that older boys (somewhat automatically) join the senior patrol almost in gratitude for prior service. These older scouts then have done very little for the troop and primarily have focused on their own Eagle-required merit badges and their Eagle project. When we got home and I was talking about it with my wife, she called the senior patrol a "retirement home" for the older scouts. And the way things have been till now, she's right. I hesitate to admit that I exerted any influence in this patrol process at all tonight, knowing the opinions of several of the scouters who post regularly on this forum, but in my efforts to support the patrol method, I made the point that our current patrol leaders (who are actually only 13 & 14 years old) are some of our most active scouts. It seemed to me that keeping these strong and active scouts within our regular patrols was a way to keep the patrols strong, whereas moving them into the "retirement home" would deplete and diminish the patrols. (I didn't actually call it the "retirement home" to the scouts, I am just repeating my dear wife's comment.) We'll see how this plays out. The dad in me takes a bit of a showing here, and I have had to make a concerted effort to not let my dad-ness take over. The troop had a rule that scouts needed to be first class or higher in order to be patrol leaders. Last year, there were four patrols and only four boys eligible based on these rank criteria, other then several boys who had already accepted their rocking chair in the retirement home. So as it turned out, my two sons have both been patrol leaders for this past year. (Yes, I did identify them as some of our stronger and more active scouts earlier in this post. And I am not ashamed to say it, because it's just true.) But both of them feel that it is unlikely that their new patrols will elect them to be patrol leaders again for this coming year. They seem aware that elections turn into popularity contests no matter what you try to do, and although neither are at all unpopular, they seem aware of the fact that some of the super popular scouts are likely to win out in next week's patrol leader elections. And I think some of those new patrol leaders actually will do well and it will be good for them to assume a position of responsibility. I am proud of my sons because they both appear proud of what they have accomplished this year. There are patrols actually functioning as patrols for the first time in their experience of Scouting. But I am even more proud of the fact that they seem to understand and accept that they can contribute significantly to the patrol and to the troop regardless of any title. They are not power-hungry or greedy, and are acting in a more collaborative manner. (It might help just a bit that both of them already have their rank requirement signed off for their "position of responsibility" requirement for Life, but I will not allow that potentially self-serving thought to get in the way of my pride in their collaborative view about their roles in the patrols.) :-) Thanks for the advice and support, as the vision of a Boy Led troop takes another baby step forward in my home town.

Praying indeed.

Oh, and I have not even BEGUN to process all that you have written about election cycles! That's next.

Well if a purpose of this forum is to stretch folks beyond their original worldviews, it's working with me. Thanks again. But I am definitely struggling to connect the ideology with the practicality. Especially when the other adults with whom I am working (I think) see things as just fine the way that they are. So I am struggling within myself and also anticipating struggles with the other adults, who are my friends and on whom I don't pull the SM card, so we may need some deep talk. I am also struggling (but I think I will get there) with what I find to be the amazing lack of creativity that I find in the Scouts. I think the educational system and the troop system has beaten them into submission. I see it in my son's high school academic work, where he NEVER takes a chance for fear of the teachers anticipated negative reaction to anything outside the box (which he may be misperceiving, but it IS his perception). And when I try to ask the Scouts to think for themselves, I get blank stares and shrugs. But like I said, I can get past that. I am patient. When I said, "patrol cooking is the plan", they stared at me, looked lost for a while, and then clicked in. It has been the only (no, the MAIN) source of creativity that I have seen from them. It's there. The creativity is there. It just has not been reinforced by the systems in which they live. But I believe patience is the antidote for that, and I can be patient, ask them to make choices and be patient with their pause. That said, I quoted blw2 because I do sometimes see another side. I have had the thought that the boys don't seem to even know the possibilities. "We could do that?" has been a question I have gotten from the Scouts, but only when I (ADULT) introduced an idea to them. Sometimes, I feel like without seeing the playing field they would keep on the old track simply because they do not seem to know that there are other tracks in existence. It's like we've gone into a restaurant and they do not know any of the ways restaurants work. But if they knew about ordering appetizers before the main course, they may create an appetizing meal without help. And maybe they would order appetizers last, but at least they would know about appetizers. Where is MY line in what I suggest or just leave completely alone?!? (You see, I waver.) So the goal? Seeking balance between the two perspectives (let 'em loose AND showing them the options -- which I think may be Beavah's perspective, along with his apostrophe ?)? Maybe, but I also don't want to water it all down, and I see the value in Stosh, qwazse, Eagle94-A1, and TAHAWK promoting a more wholehearted and fundamental change in letting them loose. Am I hearing the message correctly? Cause my brain is still churning.

I am honored by the time and thoughtfulness put into the replies to my initial questions. Thank you so much. I do have thoughts and responses in kind (mostly to say that you are all inspiring me & challenging me, and maybe to ask some follow ups), but I am at work and can't take too long here. Just wanted to say an initial thanks and will write more as soon as I can. (Deep bow).

Hoping for some advice. Troop had been mostly run in a "Troop Method" in the prior few years. There were "patrols", but they were rather meaningless for all intents and purposes. I've been the Scoutmaster for the past 18 months or so, and based upon wisdom gleaned here and elsewhere, including ItOLS, I saw the potential for facilitating the patrol method more fully. The good news is that the past year's SPL had gone through NYLT, is very active in scouting, and wanted to have a more true patrol method as well. Add to that, four solid and active Patrol Leaders, and we have made good strides. So much so, that a bunch of boys who were languishing have re engaged and have earned First Class. Patrol cooking has definitely been a new and wonderful experience for the boys (sad it was so long in coming). One more important variable. We just crossed over 18 Webelos last week. Yup, eighteen to add to our 36. I anticipate 10-12 sticking (younger brothers of some of the boy scouts, and boys I knew from Cub Scout days when I was the Cubmaster, so I predict 10-12). So the current Scouts wanted to add a fifth patrol, and I agree with them. I kinda think it's their call, though the idea that they could make this decision on their own was a wholly new idea for them. Even though it may upset the apple cart, it does feel like it is time to have new elections for Patrol Leaders. 1) The current four PLs have had the job for one year. 2) There are a bunch of boys who are First Class now and are talking about interest in leadership. And 3) we have a new patrol to set up. The boys want to reorganize all the patrols. Makes sense to me, especially since one patrol has had much poorer attendance than the other three (not due to the PL, in my humble opinion). Some adult scouters (already we have a problem, I know), are advocating moving these four PL boys out, making them Troop Guides, and having them part of the Senior Patrol. They want to clear out leadership opportunities for the boys who are coming up behind the current four PLs. In fact, the current SPL wants this idea, as well. He wants more boys in the Senior Patrol. I think this idea is a throwback to the Troop Method of the past. The Senior Patrol was/is a bunch of older boys with no real leadership roles and poor participation and attendance. Great guys, but poor leadership clarity. Their roles are quite loose and unfocused. I think the Senior Patrol would be better kept small, and keep almost all the Scouts in patrols. And therefore keep these four active and solid scouts (who have been the PL) in the patrols. So I would think one option would be for the current four PL boys to be given the chance to run for PL again, and let to boys decide from among the ten eligible (the troop has always had a rule of PL needing to be First Class, is this normal?) Scouts. "Okay boys, here are 10 names, pick the five Scouts who you feel would be the best Patrol Leaders"). Then let the boys organize their five patrols around these five leaders. Pros: you may get the five overall best leaders. And if any of the current four PLs is reelected, you get some consistency. Well, that's the opposite of a lot of what I read, which would recommend to have the boys divide up into five patrols, and then have the boys elect their leader from within the patrol. Might not get the best five leaders. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't. Having so many brand new Scouts, it feels important, but maybe I am wrong. Since the boys have made strides this year, I'd hope they would take another step forward, since it feels there is still a long way to go. As I re-read before posting, I actually have two separate issues: 1) would you intervene regarding having the four current PLs run again if they want the position (or would you pave the way for new boys to have an opportunity)? 2) either way, would you elect the five highest vote getters from a general election of eligible scouts and then organize patrols around these five boy leaders, or would you organize five patrols and then have the patrols elect from within? Would you let the boys decide, since it is their patrols? I am all about letting boys learn from their mistakes, but one also wants a strong program within which to truly learn from both successes and failures. Or am I missing something else entirely?

Absolutely. Our troop recently had story of similar content. We've made some strides in the area of boy's being responsible for camping duties this past year. In the past, adults used to buy the food (sigh). This year+, new initiative. All available members of the patrols meet up at the supermarket to buy the food together from their planned menu instead. We have rechargeable gift cards from the supermarket, so the treasurer has an easier job of keeping track, but they boys still are responsible to stay on budget since they cannot spend more than funds on the card. Last campout, as far as I can gather it, my son's patrol (he is PL) left the ground beef, bacon, and butter (all the good stuff!) at the supermarket when they left. They had their other items. I think they just left that bag. Tents were already up and home was far behind when they noticed their error. Each boy had taken home a few bags, so they only realized their error at the camp site. This whole year+, I have been proud of their efforts to cook with minimal adult intervention of any kind. I was far more proud of how they solved this problem. While noticeably upset about their error in leaving the food behind, the scouts did not come to the adults to solve the problem. They figured out their solutions on their own. They reorganized their menus to accommodate the food that they had, and asked the other patrol to share some food. No one starved. The rest of their camping activities (including a night hike!) went off without a hitch. And I think they were glad they were able to stay independent. And the adult leaders happened to leave their Coleman stove home as well. So the scouts weren't the only one who had to adapt and be flexible!

Once upon a time, Woot would automatically translate (the aforementioned word) to "carp", in its discussion forums about products. If you typed in (the aforementioned word), it posted as "carp" when the post went live. My wife and I still say "carp" as an alternative to .... the other word.

Much obliged, Fred. I will pass your advice on to the Scouts. Especially since we will be there in August, too!

Thanks, Tatung42. I did not know if they rigged up some kind of pioneering shower. My son and I watched some YouTube videos of the 5+ mile war canoe trek to the island. Looks rough, we should practice indeed. Thanks for the other advice. Did anyone try those wrist band things for sea sickness? Thanks again.

As far as you know, is there electricity on Big Munson Island? I am VERY interested in detaching from electronica overall. Just wondering about recharging camera batteries. Are there showers on the Island? Thanks.

Sensible advice! Thanks. I did not know about trading patches or shirts. What is that? Thanks again.

Understanding and noticing that some of the folks on the forum have been experiencing a tough time lately, I wanted to step out of the "lurker role" and state that I gain greatly from the wisdom, advice, and experience of all members who post, acknowledging that some do not share all of the same views that I hold. Spring is battling to gain the upper hand in my neck of the woods, and I for one cannot wait to get out into the warmer, open air with our troop. I am excited for a new season of Scouting and for the future. I am truly excited by the fact that troop for which I serve as Scoutmaster will be going to Sea Base this summer and will be staying on Big Munson Island. I'll be sharing the experience with both of my sons (and 15 of their close friends), making the experience all the more sweet. There are quite a few good YouTube videos about the "Out Island Adventure" Sea Base experience. I did wonder whether anyone else on the forum had gone on this particular high adventure experience and if they had any personal advice for our troop to make the most of the adventure. Thanks much.

I wish you much luck in resolving this issue so that your son finds a welcoming troop. Two observations: In our troop there are several scouts who show traits and symptoms of Aspergers & PDD. My experiences with other troops at Council wide events suggests that other troops in the area appear to similarly attract boys with these types of traits. And secondly, Scouting seems to me to a great match for these boys (chicken and egg with point 1), so the BSA would do well to make sure that leaders understand the most effective ways to support these boys and their families. With some encouragement, I have seen some boys do their best socializing and connecting at Summer Camp, have seen the boys efforts to cook together on camping trips to both challenge the boys in their collaborative efforts and to give them a chance to grow, and yet also be a way for the boys to indulge some of their interests independently, too. I find that these boys do best when expectations around socializing and collaborating are made clear, and perhaps with less subtlety and nuance than with some other boys. I hope that this idea is not offensive. I think it is meeting the boys "where they are at". I do not myself nor do I encourage senior scouts to be rude, just clear and gentle and direct in what is expected. Without some direction, I have seen boys set up their own tent and stay apart during camping trips, perhaps reading in their tents to their hearts content, but staying to themselves. Once I became SM, this tendency was one of my first camping aims to change. Before that, no one in the troop was making any changes because the boys were not complaining, but I saw it as a lost opportunity for the whole troop. Once the expectation of tenting with other boys was made clear, everything went fine (well usually, they are boys after all), and some really nice moments came from the change. I also am well aware that each boy is different, so this example is not all inclusive, just an example of a guiding principle that has helped the boys in my troop.

Thanks so much. Great ideas and a lot to think about. Appreciate the ideas for competition to stimulate and promote patrol unity, and also the thought you've given to the roles of SM, SPL, JASMs to the process. Again, much obliged.

Greetings. Having assumed the role of Scoutmaster in September 2014, I have been trying to learn ways to facilitate the best Scouting experience for the boys in the Troop. I think that the Troop (after falling from grace for a while) had made a good return to a "boys leading boys" mindset prior to last year and before my time as SM. I hope I continued that emphasis when I became SM, and this year's Senior Patrol has been good in assuming leadership. It really has been nice. While we have boys leading boys, my assessment is that the Troop still has not achieved as much in Patrol Development. The troop (led more by the Senior Patrol), rather than the patrol, was the focus prior to my time as SM. I am trying to find some balance there. Four boys achieved FC this Spring and were good PL material (the fact that two of them were my own sons had nothing to do with that assessment!) The former PLs had been in the position for 18 months or so, since there was an age gap between them and these next four coming up the ranks. The SPL and I talked, and he suggested that those older boys move up to Troop Guide and that the new FC scouts assume the role of PL if they were elected. I loved the idea (especially since it was his) and we've started this new process along about two months ago. Having solid Troop Guides to help the new PLs has been a good combination to keep more of a patrol focus (or at least the beginning of one). Here's the question. Googlin' and searchin', I came across the National Honor Patrol Award. Would it be considered appropriate to bring this award to the new PLs' attention to inspire this Patrol emphasis and inspire the patrols to work together towards the award? Has anyone done something similar, either with this award or in another (more) effective way? Thanks much. I appreciate the collective Scouting wisdom here and look forward to any ideas you all may have.

Angler, I think you have a good point, and thanks for helping me think it through some more. It is inconsistent of me to suggest that Trail Life can sustain a program and set their memberships policy in the exclusionary ways that they have, while also suggesting that for the BSA (or for any group) such policy would be unsustainable due to that policy's discrimination against (my opinion) basic human rights. I have to rethink my position on Trail Life (and I guess I already have). The fact that I hope that those boys and families have a good experience in their scouting endeavors should not affect my principles (especially when arguing principles!). Much obliged and good Scouting to you.

Thanks, moosetracker. You were correct in your first assumption. As I have taken on a more active role in my Troop, I have looked to this forum for advice on Patrol Method, uniform issues, advancement tracking, service projects, and much more. This far, I had always been granted plenty to chew on simply from lurking and searching, so I had not posted. (Thanks to all for your collective wisdom and previous guidance.) Yes, I feel strongly about this particular membership issue, and I have been one of the members of the scouting community who participated in the BSA program with trepidation because of my disagreement with the former membership policies and the former (potential) implication that I was tacitly endorsing those policies via my participation in Scouting. But I also enthusiastically participated in Scouting because of the benefits that Scouting granted my sons and my family from standpoints of community, leadership development, skills, fun, and friendship. No worries about the thickness of my skin. I'm in as a Scouter for the long haul. And I also appreciate that good people can have extremely disparate opinions, and still be good people. Thanks again for the welcome. And yes, I am heading back over to the Program sub-forum now! :-)

There was no insinuation that the original poster was racist, and that is a poor reading of my point. Rather, my point is that a separate scouting program would not be equal (and would exclude boys/adults from their own community) and therefore would be a poor solution to membership issues of any kind. TrailLife is certainly entitled to creating their own program (and I wish them well, there are boys lives and futures at stake after all), but it is not, in my opinion, a viable solution to the larger issue. And yes, I contend that organizations cannot maintain memberships standards which exclude people when those standards are inherently discriminatory at the level of basic human rights. That is exactly what I am intending to convey. I imagine that you disagree on his particular topic. Not likely either of us will change our mind. I imagine we may agree on many other topics relevant to Scouting, and I hope we may greet one another on those issues, at other times, and in other forums.

Thanks for the welcome, and I appreciate the advice. Compared to other sites on the interwebs, this site seems quite well reasoned and respectful, even on the more sensitive issues. I know it was my first post, inspired by the facts that I do have strong feelings on the matter, I hope to stick around and contribute/ask advice on matters more relevant to the day-to-day Scouting that my boys and I do (and my wife is wonderful to support). We're a rather "all in" scouting family. And it certainly was nothing personal with Bad Wolf. I agree with quite a lot of his posts on other forum topics and appreciate his scouting wisdom. Thanks again.

I think "separate but equal" has been discredited long ago enough that we can fairly say that prevailing wisdom will not support it. And I see no tearing down of the BSA in any of these changes in membership rules. If either of my sons were gay, I would imagine they would want to be with their friends. Gay people do socialize with straight people. So they would want to be in the BSA to participate in scouting experiences with their friends in the community, which would also afford the scouting experience with the most history, breadth, depth, and support. They would want the best. And if they spent their lives dedicated to Scouting as youth, which they seem to already be doing, I would not be surprised if they would want to be adult leaders. Perhaps because they would want the same for their own sons. Because gay men have children, too.