mgood777

I like your post, but one minor correction. The current GUIDE TO AWARDS AND INSIGNIA page 61: Recommended . . . limited to three rows of three. Not required. I remember when two full rows was a buttload of knots. I was rather awestruck the first time I saw someone with three full rows of three. (My Scoutmaster had two full rows and the beginning of a third.) It seems that knots have proliferated in the last 20 years or so to the point that it doesn't seem uncommon - from what I've seen recently - for people to have four or even more rows. I'm kinda digging the idea of limiting them to three, or two, rows. (Me limiting myself. I am not advocating a rule for others here.) How much junk do I really want to sew on there anyway? Quality over quantity. I could take the 6 or nine I deem most important and leave the rest off. Since I only have three at the moment, I don't have this problem, but just contemplating the future.

They should pay ME! . . . Oh, wait. I don't. I'm poor. All I have to give is my time, and sometimes little of that. I have not read the other responses yet. CO provides for the unit, not the other way around. On the other hand, $300/yr is cheap rent for a meeting place if the alternative is storing the stuff at home and meeting at the park. I'd feel better if we agreed to work a fundraiser for the CO. Maybe help staff their fundraiser, maybe organize a fundraiser for them. That seems better than saying "We'll give you [x number] dollars each year." No real difference, I suppose, from having a troop fund raiser and giving the CO $300 out of the proceeds. But it seems better to me. Agree, not the hill to die on. Pick your battles. This seems strange to me, but relatively minor.

Yes, what @@oldisnewagain1 said. Some knots can be earned in several different ways, and earned multiple times. The pins show in which branch of scouting they were earned. You could earn the Scouter's Key as a Scoutmaster and the Commissioner's Key as a Commissioner. Same knot. Rather than wearing two identical knots (like my District Commissioner does ), you wear one knot with the two pins on it. I think the Scouter's Key and Scouters Training Award were once available to Cub leaders too, before they came out with a bunch of Cub-specific knots. So someone could have earned the Scouter's Key as Cubmaster, again as Scoutmaster, and again as a Commissioner. One knot with three pins. Some pins may show additional training beyond the basic requirements of the knot. You may wear Eagle Palms, if earned, on your Eagle knot. There is a Philmont Training Center knot that is part of a three-tier program. (Without looking back at the specifics, going off the top of my head, so don't flame me if I'm off by a little.): 1. Attend a training conference at Philmont Training Center and get the PTC patch which can be worn on the right pocket of the uniform as a temporary insignia or on the right pocket of the red jack-shirt. 2. Attend a second PTC conference. Recruit three other people to attend PTC conferences. And teach a course in your district or council (presumably on the subject you studied at PTC). Get a knot. 3. Serve on the PTC faculty for one course, recruit 3 more people to go to PTC courses. . . And maybe something else. Get a PTC pin to stick on your knot.

Agree. Some of the best Scouters I've known have worn quite a few knots. And I've known some with lots of knots who made you wonder why they were even there, seemed to contribute nothing but to look down their noses at the "less accomplished" Scouters. And I've known some great Scoutmasters with nary a knot to be seen on their uniforms. Some had them and didn't bother sewing them on. Some never got them, busy with their troop and not noticed by district/council and never bothering to turn in paperwork for personal awards.

LOL, true. When I was a Life Scout and SPL, me and an Eagle Scout JASM were challenged to a camporee-type fire building contest by our SM and CC, two Eagle Scouts, but old farts. We thought there was NO WAY we could lose. . . . We lost. It was close, but we lost. [Many of you have probably seen this. It used to be common. May still be. There is a string tied 12 inches high, another at 18 inches. You have two two-by-fours 12 inches long. You have one hatchet, as many knives as you want, and two matches. Build a fire, stacking the wood no higher than the 12" string. First patrol to burn through the 18" string wins. GO!]

Sounds to me like the guy with one knot probably had way more wilderness survival training than most Scouters could dream of. Most likely some practical experience in that area as well. Best man (or person) for the job is not necessarily the one with the most doo-dads on his uniform. If I were to become a Scoutmaster, the first person I'd ask to be an ASM is my best friend. If I was teaching some Scout training course and needed help, I'd call him. Only knot he's qualified to wear is the Arrow of Light. He topped out at Life in Boy Scouts. In junior high school, he was my Assistant Patrol Leader. He was always the guy I could count on to handle things if I couldn't be there that week. Later he was my Assistant Senior Patrol Leader. He was a 17-yr-old SPL when I was an 18-yr-old ASM. We've made three Philmont treks together and countless campouts. I know his experience and qualifications even if my faith in him is not reflected in knots on his uniform.

What intimidates me is being The Man In Charge, and making the commitment to being there all the time. As a commissioner, I can pass on a little information here and there, but I'm not expected to be at every meeting and campout. I would LOVE to be a Scoutmaster, have a youth-run troop without some SM above me stepping on that process. But I would hate to take on that responsibility and then 4 months later get so busy with work that I had to step down or delegate most of my responsibilities to ASMs.

Yes, I sewed them myself. Thanks. I hire someone to hem pants and things like that, but sew my own patches. When I was about 2nd Class or somewhere in there, I mentioned that I didn't have something on my uniform yet because my mom hadn't sewn it on for me yet. An ASM suggested that a Boy Scout should be able to do things for himself and asked why I had to wait on my mom to do it. I thought it was an interesting question, so I gave it a whirl. I've done most of my own patch sewing since then. Yep. I became fascinated by the knots when I was an 18 year old ASM. Some of the really experienced adults had a chest full of knots. Maybe I thought I needed to get some knots so they'd take me seriously. (A hair cut would have probably done me more good, and been quicker. But that would have been like surrendering to the other side.)

LOL. I'm actually a little intimidated of the idea of being the SM. Something I've always thought I'd like to do when I grow up. (I'm 46 ) Dedicating the time to the job, being able to be there all the time would be difficult. I have enjoyed all the training courses I've been to. Even if the material was mostly stuff I'd known for some time, I learned a LOT from discussions with other leaders about how THEY implement the material being taught. My post above was mostly a knee-jerk reaction. "BASIC outdoor skills?? Tenderfoot to 1st Class?!? Wait a minute, I made 1st Class when we still had skill awards!" I don't need to be taught how to pitch a tent or build a fire, but I have to keep in mind that a lot of new things have come along since I was last involved in Scouting. Learning is good. You can ALWAYS learn something new. Interacting with other leaders is good. I just wondered if taking a weekend for that was the best use of my time. I'll probably do it.

True. If you hold those positions for the required amount of time, and are even halfway doing your job, you've done all the requirements. That's how I got those two knots. Guilty, of wearing devices and all - on and off. Love the "Banana Republic Generals"!! Though I'm a bit of a wannabe, I'm still going to use that phrase.

As for the original question, I'd say District Training Chairman or Unit Commissioner, if those positions are active in your area. District Executive if not. I'm sort of guessing, which is sad because I used to be a District Advancement Chair (long ago), and a Commissioner (long ago and now new again).

Me too. Paperwork? I don't need no stinking paperwork! Hey, one time I was rejoining my old council from long ago, but could never get to Lubbock (where the South Plains Council office was) during business hours. I was in Midland and stopped by the Buffalo Trail Council office, where they don't know me from Adam. I walked in and told them my situation. Said I need an Eagle knot, Scouter's Training Award knot, and Scouter's Key knot. Gimme a Unit Commissioner badge of office, a Trained patch, Arrowhead honor, blah, blah. (I still had extra council strips and lodge flaps from back in the day.) They dug them out and told me how much it cost and I went away with the loot, no ID, no paperwork, nothin. Pretty much how it works out here. This time around, I just joined Buffalo Trail Council a few weeks ago, but bought a lot of my stuff at the South Plains Council office, lol. The only thing I needed from Buffalo Trail was a council strip and a lodge flap. Same stuff, different decade. Told them what I needed and they sold it to me. I grew up an hour and a half from the Council office. Not everyone could get there during business hours. If someone was going, everyone gave them their shopping list. Pretty much any adult could walk in and buy whatever they asked for. Never heard of anyone being asked for paperwork. (It's more trouble to get the actual medals, but you can buy all the knots you want.) [EDIT: I can buy all the service stars I want, but I have had to actually document dates and such and wait for them to research and verify when putting in for Veteran Pins. Funny because service stars go on the uniform and veteran pins don't. You can't cruise in and buy Wood Badge Beads, or Wood Badge anything. You CAN buy OA sashes, no prob. You can't just buy a Silver Beaver or anything like that, but you could probably get the knot for it.]

Cool. From a map on that page: 1. Where I grew up. 2-4. Other places I've lived in Texas. (2 is the headquarters of the council where I said the lodge used Comanche-influenced costumes.) 5. Where I live now. (Locations are approximate 1=Denver City, 2=Lubbock/Levelland, 3=Dallas area, 4=Breckenridge, 5=Snyder, more or less.)

Gotcha. Thanks.

Ok, help me out here. I am a bit rusty from being away from Scouting for so long. For what, exactly, is IOLS required? Why should I need to test out. As an Eagle Scout, former Philmont Ranger, and someone with 16-17 years in Scouting, I looked over that list on the "test-out" form and I have taught most of those skills at one time or another. (Granted, some of the skills could use a little dusting off because I haven't done much of that in a long time.) Had to take a CPR course last year at work. (I remember being told at the time that Philmont Ranger training was the most challenging outdoor training BSA had to offer.) I even went through Wood Badge in the early nineties, but never wrote a ticket, so no beads here.

I grew up in what was once Comanche country, I guess. Heck, I was in Quanah Parker District, in the area where Quanah Parker was actually born. (There's a historical marker over at Cedar Lake, near Loop, TX, where I have hunted many times.) I never remember hearing of any other Native Americans around these parts (though I suppose there must have been others). Our OA ceremonies team always seemed to be generic plains Indian. But I just Googled Comanche ceremonial dress and Sioux ceremonial dress and glanced at the pics. They don't seem too terribly different (to my untrained eye). I'd even say that our ceremonial costumes were probably more Comanche-influenced than I ever appreciated.

We would have had entirely too much fun with this when I was a Scout. Sadly true. Give them as much responsibility as they can handle. Unfortunately most adult leaders don't really believe they can handle all that much and are unable to step back far enough to find out.

The troop I grew up in was fortunate enough to have our own building. A fairly spacious cinder block building that was mostly one big room, but also had two small offices (one was the Scoutmaster's office and one was the "Eagle Room" where we conducted boards of review, a really neat room decorated with eagle wallhanging, pictures, statuettes, all sorts of eagles, mostly donated by Eagle Scouts who'd come up through the troop) and a restroom, plus a kitchen area. Flagpoles out front, basketball goal off to the side. Big fire pit in the middle of the room. Retired patrol flags, some going back nearly 40 years, hung from the rafters. Right next to our scout hut was "the old scout hut," a dilapidated building used for storage. Some of the scouts in my troop had fathers who had met in "the old scout hut" when they were in the troop. We were spoiled. Only as an adult did I encounter troop meeting places in the chartering organizations' buildings. Only the adults were supposed to have keys to the scout hut (according to the Lions Club, our CO), but for the years I was in the troop, the SPL always had a key. I had one when I was SPL. It was an honor, a sign of trust, to have a key to the building. Like you were being given an adult-type responsibility and were expected to treat it accordingly.

I've always been taught that the 18-20 year olds could tent with either youth or adults. Say you're backpacking, where you're trying to minimize the weight. You're carrying 2-man tents. (Talking about all-male crew, not dealing with gender issues here.) You have 7 youth -> 4 tents. You have 3 adults -> 2 tents. total 6 tents. BUT, if one of these adults is 18-20, that person may be considered a youth for this purpose. So: 8 youth -> 4 tents 2 adults -> 1 tent. total 5 tents. Weight savings of one tent. Yay. This is the way it worked at Philmont when I was on staff there. 18-20 year olds were considered a Godsend for just this reason. Granted, I've been away from Scouting for the better part of two decades, but I just went through YPT (twice, actually, once online and once in person, about a week apart) and did not find anything to controvert this notion. Even asked this question of the guy who taught the course in person and he agreed that that's still how it works.

They never were - which I think is why mgood777 referred to them as "illegal." Right, they never were. Back when the uniforms with epaulets first came out, one troop in my district started wearing baby blue shoulder loops and my troop started wearing the red and white striped loops. I never owned a set of red loops until I went to Wood Badge (8 or 10 years later). The Scoutmasters of these two troops were known as rebels who ran their programs their way. They got lots of threats from council to fall into line, but they generally ignored them. They ran some of the most successful troops in the council so it wasn't like they were going to pull their charter over stuff like this. When I showed up at Philmont with my red and white shoulder loops, I was told they were a no-no. I just stopped wearing the uniform shirt. I was NOT going to wear red shoulder loops with my troop number. Matter of pride. So I wore the staff shirt instead. Then a crew showed up from the other troop, with the baby blue loops. They were our closest friends/rivals. I broke out my uniform with the red and white loops while those guys were in base camp. This came to the attention of some of the Philmont higher ups, and I got a stern lecture about uniform. I went back to the staff shirt. Still not willing to wear red loops, especially while that other troop was around. When I went back for a second year on staff, my badge of office said District Committee and I wore silver loops. I think I was on the District Committee when I was there the first time, but didn't have any uniforms that said that. My second year I took only District Committee uniforms, to avoid the red loops.

One Scoutmaster of mine commented that there are a lot of Eagle Scouts out there who, if dropped in the woods in the middle of nowhere, would die of starvation and exposure. He thought this was a sad state of affairs and that there was no excuse for it.

No kids here. On September 6, 1986, my 18th birthday, I had just gotten the meeting started with an opening when the Scoutmaster and CC called me over and said, "Goodwin, you know you're too old to be Senior Patrol Leader, right?" I told them I knew that and that's why we had elections scheduled right after the opening, to select my replacement. (It was such a youth-run operation that they didn't even know what we had planned from week to week. I'd been SPL for several years and was running the troop when this Scoutmaster took over. So he occupied the office and did paperwork while I had continued to run the troop ) Anyway, I was 18 and I asked "How old to you have to be to be an Assistant Scoutmaster?" (I already knew the answer, but I wanted to hear it from them.) They said "You're it." And I said "Well sign me up." When I went off to college, I found a troop to work with there. When I moved to another city, I found another troop to work with there. I felt welcome at both places, but I knew that they knew that I'd come up through the program and just hadn't gotten out. If some adult with no kids suddenly decided he wanted to be a Scoutmaster or something, I can see where it would raise some eyebrows. When I first joined Boy Scouts, the Scoutmaster had no boy in the program. He had a daughter a few years older than me and a son who was probably 5 years younger than me. He had a lot of Scouting experience, both as a youth and an adult and I don't think anyone questioned him. One of the best Scoutmasters I ever worked with. The guy who replaced him, the one who told me I was too old to be SPL, had two daughters, no sons. Both of these guys were Eagle Scouts. Our main "rival" at camporees and such was another troop in our district led by a single man who had no kids in the troop. Mr. V had been Scoutmaster there since some of the parents of my friends were in his troop. And he held that position until he passed away when I was in college. Had to be at least 30 years. I'm getting back into Scouting after a 20 year hiatus, but as a Unit Commissioner. I'd like to be a Scoutmaster some day. I think I'd make a good one. I just don't have the time or enough predictability to my schedule to be the main guy there all the time.

I'd love a college like that. I think most schools required 128-130 hours to graduate last time I checked (which was a while back). I have 140 hours but am no where near graduating in anything.

That is sad.

In my experience in rural districts there are never enough people to fill all the slots that need to be filled. Not even close. If someone shows up for two District Committee meetings in a row, just to watch and see what goes on there, they'll find themselves appointed to a position on the committee. How do you think I became District Advancement Chairman at 19 years old, or District Commissioner at 21? I was one of the five or six people who regularly showed up at district meetings. They'll give you as many hats as you're willing to wear. I know how these positions are supposed to be filled, but then the vacant positions are filled by whatever warm body they can find.