ianwilkins

Thanks all. Interesting stuff. Turns out it was much as I thought from my cultural framework. Mostly Scout Law + Clint Eastwood, but it depends. Probably almost as vague a question as "what is scouting?"* * No, don't answer that.

Argumentative lil' fella ain't he? Good for him.

Genuinely, and I'm not, at least, I don't think I am, asking you to hand me a stick to beat you with... It's just I'm from the UK, and I'm curious, because I don't quite understand, and I'd like to understand more about where you're coming from... In the various girls in the BSA threads, there's a fair bit comments along the lines of "we're turning boys into men" "we're teaching boys to be manly", and so on. What do you mean when you say boy scouts is for turning boys into men? Or making them "manly"? Is it "just"* getting them to live the scout law in everyday life? Or is there more to it that that? * Yes, no "just" about it. Ian

In a Cub pack (aged 8-10 in the UK), of, say, 30 kids, they are split into "sixes", usually with, hey, around six kids in them. The "sixer" is the "patrol leader", and the "seconder" the assistant patrol leader". I'm not sure in reality how much power and authority they wield, it will certainly vary from pack to pack. https://members.scouts.org.uk/factsheets/FS170056.pdf Ian

These days we have the "yellow card". And all adults that have unsupervised access to young people have to have a background check. https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/3099/young-people-first-code-of-practice-yellow-card?cat=419,299,304 Basically everything that was supposed to apply to boys (and yes, we've had our share of unsavouries in the past, and no doubt some will still creep out the woodwork in the future) now applies to boys and girls. There's things like "no inappropriate contact" on that card. In the past I've had to comfort teary boys and girls, yes, aged 15-16, who've being having real life difficulties that all come out when they're super tired after 4-5 days on camp. A comforting arm round the shoulder is still fine, whatever the gender. Sometimes you get a group who are very physical, touchy-feely if you will. At the end of summer camp this year, a fair proportion of them, boys and girls, unprompted, came and gave me hug, said thankyou, and went on their way. The parents looking on, well, I don't know what they thought, but they seemed ok with it, as I say, the actions were not prompted by me. Other times it's just a cheery wave goodbye, and that's fine too. Ahh, yes, now, as I deal with the 14-18 age range, yes, it's something I have to consider. For me, everything comes back to the scout law. A scout is to be trusted. We have had "couples" on camp, and some leaders were running scared. I had to buy, at a leader's request, condoms for the first aid kit "just in case". I thought it was an overreaction. We had standing rules that "couples" couldn't be in a tent on their own and weren't to go off into the bushes etc. I was having a beer with the lad in that couple years later, he laughed and said "not a chance I'd have got that far with her". Still, yes, I've probably terrified you now. That's once in 15 years now. These days they all seem to be friends, or they're hiding it well, so they're happy just to hang out and poke the fire. But it'll happen again I'm sure, and we'll deal with it best we can, not usually much of an issue. When we bought some teepee type tents, and had mixed groups of explorers in them, one parent was shrilly alarmed that they'd all be "at it like rabbits" as soon as our backs were turned. It just doesn't seem to work like that. I have had camps (most of the time in fact) where I haven't mixed genders in the same tents, it just depends on the situation and the kids. Again, once in 15 years I've had to have a quiet word with a lad who was creeping out the girls. He was genuine special needs though, so autistic on top of raging hormones. And yes, we take sanitary products on camp now, mostly they deal with that sort of thing themselves between each other. But there's always a first time, and it's a bit of a shock for them when it happens on camp. To me, it's all part of life's rich pageant. I'm helping young people grow up, and sometimes there's some strife, but most of the time it's a privilege. Ian

First a little background. I was a Venture Scout Leader, which in the UK was co-ed from some time in the 70s, the other younger sections were not co-ed until after I was a leader, 1991 apparently. So I've not been a leader of single gender sections, but I've been around while they changed from "boys" to "co-ed". I'm pretty sure I'm not understating it, but I genuinely don't think the programme as documented changed at all, I mean, apart from changing references to "boys" to the rather more prosaic "young people". We always had badges like "home help", and ones that involved learning to sew, alongside things like shooting and hiking and camping. I don't think any awards were "dumbed down" or had their standards lowered when girls started joining. I found an awesome site... http://www.scoutcollecting.co.uk/ Which lists all the badges over time for the sections. Badges come in and out of favour, and you could probably find something to suit your argument either way in there. I don't think, from what I see in the younger sections, that it's any more "girly" than it used to be. I really can't remember much about when I was in cubs, but what I do remember was being out doing stuff. It's possible that girls might do more stereotypically girl things for badges like "hobbies". But on the other hand, the cub pack that meets right before us has some girls in, and sometimes you'll walking and they're all making bird boxes, or one astounding occasion, flat pack furniture! Two weeks ago I handed out a "100 nights away" badge to one of my Explorers, it so happens they're a she. Well, that's more difficult for me to answer, as allowing female "cub mistresses" predates even me. It's not unfair to say adult recruitment is as ever a problem. In the youngest section Beavers (aged 6-8) it's not unfair to say it's mostly mums, as they're more traditionally at home at 5pm or so when they meet. In Explorers I've never really tried to recruit female leaders. In some units we happen to have some, and in some it happens we don't. Not much help I know. I think it's safe to say "none". I think from what I gather, Girlguiding in the UK is generally like GSUSA...."girly". In Explorers it's not uncommon for me to get some guides crossing over because they no longer enjoy guides. In terms of pure numbers, Girlguiding don't seem to release census numbers, but they say they have around 500,000, which is a little more than scouts. Also, while hunting around, I found this training material which was introduced when we went co-ed in the lower sections... https://members.scouts.org.uk/documents/girlstm.pdf Lots of dead links but might be useful.

My pennyworth from my UK perspective... Seems like only a few weeks ago, okay, July is the earliest conversation I've seen, where you were being "consulted" about membership changes. And here we are three months later and it's a done deal? Yes, I can see why some of you have woken up a bit sore this morning. If it's any consolation, UK Scout Association have done the much same in the past. And yes, it upset people then too. Now, it's tricky for me, as I haven't been in a single gender group in scouting since I left scouts and joined ventures in 1986 aged 15ish. There's been a hell of a lot of water under the bridge since then. I'm now a leader of an explorer unit that's about 50/50 boys/girls. So from a leader perspective I have no experience of running a single gender section. For me, I see some of the younger sections, and it's obvious that some of the boys don't want to be there (they've mostly all left by explorer age, 14). Parents force them along because "it'll be good for them" or "dad was a cub" or whatever. On the other hand, the girls (and parents) tend to be making a concious choice of "this is something I (or my girl) will enjoy". So the girls you will get should be engaged and enthusiastic. "One volunteer is worth ten pressed men". For me, mixed scouting is just scouting, the boys and girls develop together, are friends, mutual respect, scout values are scout values at the end of the day. I wouldn't have it any other way, but then, I know no other way. It seems unlikely to be a membership panacea, if the UK is anything to go by, you won't suddenly see 100,000 new members (and their fees) walking through the door. It'll be an interesting (as in "may you live in interesting times" - arabic curse) road ahead. Bumpy at times I suspect. If I'm around I'll try and help where I can. Ian

Crikey! How big are the reserves? Are BSA about to be litigated out of existence?

Hi folks, I run a(n unofficial) competition to find the best ten pin bowling team in scouting! It's for any section, from any country. The basic premise is, you enter, go bowling with your cubs or scout or whatever age range you work with, and enter your scores on the website. Then when the competition ends, we add up all the scores, and see who has won! The competition is run by age group/section, so there's a separate competition for cubs, scouts, and adults can join in too! It runs from December 2017 to end May 2018. Previous years we've had entries from all over the world, including Australia, Austria, Canada, New Zealand, Qatar, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden Germany, Denmark, UAE, USA, the UK, and probably a few more I've forgotten. Actually you can see where everyone was from on http://www.jambowlree.org/index.php/global/ There's fun/blanket badges available for sale if you want too. There's a small fee to enter too - $8 for as many teams as you want from your section/group/council. More details on our website http://www.jambowlree.org Or that facebook https://www.facebook.com/Jambowlree/ Or follow us on twitter @jambowlree Yours in Scouting, Ian

I hope they get advised that it might be an idea to get one for the jamboree, or rather, two or three or four. Swapping neckers is a thing. Though there's a sliding scale of desirability, I'd guess that a US necker or a UK necker, or one of the other big contingents, would be low desireability, while one from, say, Senegal, would be extremely sought after. As the only UK group at our first foreign jamboree this summer, it was an eye opener! I certainly hope so. That's the plan for the UK contingent I'm pretty sure. I know the Home Hospitality at the last one, one of ours stayed with a Japanese scout and family and she said it was one of the highlights, just to spend time living as the Japanese do. Lucky thing. Actually, we've got our selection in a few weeks too. And I'm thinking I should try and give it a little flavour of the hosting countries. Whether that be food or games or what I don't know, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears...

Something about the expression "Camping with the fam" just sets my teeth on edge. I'm sure it's not being lost in translation as "fam" is not an uncommon abbreviation over here either. Just feels like an embarrassing Uncle trying to be down wiv da kidz.

Even we Brits draw the line somewhere. The scouts do the run, the leaders wait for them in the pub. The UK Monopoly board has a list of places in London. As you intimate, there is an adults version of the Monopoly Run where you go to London and try and have a drink in each location. Some versions have you taking a picture in each location. We've done a non alcoholic one in London with our Explorers, actually, there were loads of teams from across the UK and if you were the first ones at a property you "bought" said property, then everyone that turned up after you were charge rent. All done with a clever App on a smart phone. As Mr Schiff surmises, it's basically a scavenger hunt around town.

Meanwhile, in the UK, in The Scout Association that used to be called the Boy Scout Association but changed. Wednesday night we had seven new starters in Explorers. Three girls, four boys. We played some games, and talked about what they want to do this term. Last weekend we had 25 camping, 13 girls and 12 boys. Some hammocked, some were in teepees (well, strictly speaking Nordic Lavvu really, but no one knows what that is). On summer camp we were at the Spanish National Jamboree on the canary islands, and as it happened one boy and one girl (by chance) got selected for the hike to the top of Mount Teide, the highest point in Spain. Both climbed the same mountain and saw the sunrise ("amazing" apparently). Next month we'll be selecting who's coming to visit you in 2019. The selection weekend will be the same for all of them. I do remember when UK Scouting changed from single sex, and there were similar arguments raised to those I see here. Staunchly opposed leaders left. There was change, and it wasn't always handled well. I wish you the best of luck in your journey, I hope the road isn't too bumpy. Ian

You could use C:Geo on a smartphone. It usually works for me, and it's free. Quite fun to get some trackables and set them loose. One of ours has done over 14,000 miles!

If it's any consolation, I find the same with my Explorer scouts in the UK. They sit down to do the programme, and it's all day trips and expensive stuff, and stuff they've done before. What could we do? Well we know we can do X because we've done X before. Let's do X. [time passes, we do X] Explorers is boring, we're always doing the same thing! Me: sigh! Ian

Yup, because the only time* BSA makes the news is when there's strife and angst over policy change. Or the bad leader in jail. Who'd want to join that? * Ok, there's probably some "Scout gets every merit badge" or "Eagle Scout fixes garden for the elderly" local "and finally" type stories but... Maybe the UK is chasing celebrity but with Mr Grylls as chief scout, he's got enough clout to get "scouting is a good thing" type stories into magazines and newspapers, and there's a few more "ambassadors" like Duchess of Cambridge Kate Middleton and Steve Backshall (ok, big in the UK) who also stand up and say "we volunteer, scouting is a good thing" in the media. It's no longer a thing you do that you know is fun but you'd never tell your mates (ok, some kids still have that as they're achingly worried that they'll be shunned by the cool kids) to something that's socially acceptable. It's been a real transformation over the last 15 years. Yet still, even with all that, we're still only growing by 1-3%. I hope BSA find the answer, but I'm pretty sure the answer isn't just in letting girls in, or allowing gays, or dropping god etc etc. There needs to be a transformation of public attitudes from negative to positive.

Agreed. We took 57 this year to the Spanish National Jamboree, so we added in another 2000 they were interacting with. Fun! I think the largest unit I've camped with before that is 35 ish. Then again, I run a national camp for 400 every year, and you're right. In a small summer camp environment, you can cope with one or too, ummm, spirited? Wayward? Difficult? But yes, get a few more than that...and if they meet up and start working together...yes, it can make leaders lives difficult. Yup, we have that too, and yes, it does cause extra complications. I think I've had all of those, it seems to have become a thing for some of them to pull an all nighter on the last night of the week long summer camp, makes packing up a bit fraught on occasions. Of course, maybe dealing with 14-18 year olds mostly, they're that little bit more mature, and their role models in the unit are that much more mature, so you aren't dealing with those just starting to deal with lifes complications. I was genuinely rather shocked by those reports. So much so I'm wondering how much I should encourage my girls to apply for the WSJ in two years time, but I would hope with that much more dilution with scouts from all over it won't raise its ugly head, and if it does, it's dealt with and stamped on. A few years ago we had two lads who would constantly be disappearing off. A real pain in the behind when it was dinner time or time to have a chat about something or get ready for something and once again they were nowhere to be found Actually, I do understand, or, at least, I do have much sympathy. My former scout leaders, good leaders all, all three stopped volunteering when the scout section was made mandatory mixed. I think they had the same view as you, "not on my watch, I didn't sign up for this". The scout leaders that came after them just had to deal with it, it was what they signed up for. It's a very emotive subject, and you're a volunteer not a conscript, so if you don't feel it's for you anymore, that's ok. When our more junoir sections went coed, the internet hardly existed, and we couldn't find out other people's experiences who'd paddled the river ahead so easily. That's why I'm chipping in, I think. Two countries separated by the same language or something. To be fair, it does raise eyebrows over here too sometimes. Meanwhile in Sweden it's totally normal. Bizarrely, quite often I've found it's the younger section's leaders that throw their hands up in horror, Beaver age, 6-8, but that might be because that's mostly mums running it who can't see their daughter sharing a tent or they only have sons so can't get their head round it. Our rules say girls and boys need a space to change in private. So all the boys get out while the girls change, and vice versa, or they change in the toilets, or they don't change. They work something out. Ian

Yes, loss of the patrol method would be...a game changer. And not in a good way. I can't quite remember what happened in the UK, but I seem to remember Girl Guides, well, there were no doubt local rumblings and mumblings. But I think their HQ may have said something like "we've got the same broad goals but we're doing different things aimed at different girls" and probably reminded people there's more of them than scouts in the UK.

I went to a presentation last week about an expedition some of our explorer scouts and network did. Two mixed gender teams of 5, aged 16-21. 4 days walking 3 nights camping. Remote supervision (i.e. an expedition assessor would meet them either in the evening or morning and see how they were doing). They were described by the assessor as two of the best teams they've ever had. We've done mixed gender camping for years. We've done mixed gender hikes and camping without close adult supervision. We've occasionally had mixed gender tents. I'm not really sure what there is to keep you up at night. But reality is a often a lot more boring than the imagination. I mean, to cover things off explicitly: Periods: They know when they're due, so they are prepared. A few supplies in the first aid kit just in case. Any surprises and accidents are just treated as you would an accident at the back door not the front door. (whispers) S.E.X.: Doesn't really raise its ugly head. We have had the odd couple on camp. A chat about being respectful, considering others, and the lass usually says "there's barely any showers Ian, he ain't getting anywhere close, certainly not sticking that in there" or words to that effect. Consent, or otherwise. That's covered off by the scout law. One time we had a mixed gender tent with about 8 of them in it, a teepee, effectively, one parent was concerned enough to suggest, with a raised eyebrow, that they'd all be "at it like rabbits" as soon as my back was turned, as "that's what we did". Funnily enough, a chat about trust and responsibilities, that didn't happen. To be honest, every time we bring it up, usually our young people ask "what do you think we're like? Honestly? Why would you even do that? Eurgh!". Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe we should give young people more credit. That said, I've never, as a leader, moved from a single sex section to a mixed sex section, but I know leaders that have, and have found it difficult to adjust, so I'm not saying it'll be a walk in the park, but if you're enjoying your scouting, why not carry on and give it a go, instead of stopping?

Actually, this thread has left me a little shocked. We're shortly going to select people to come to the world scout jamboree in 2019. I guess I'll have to hope that the attitudes shown is the exception rather than the rule amongst the boy scouts, and that as people will be from all corners of the world, things will be somewhat different.

I'm one of the organisers of an annual weekend camp for about 400 Explorer Scouts and Network over here in the UK, so aged 14-25, plus their leaders. Two or three years ago at the end of the evening's entertainment we turned the house lights up and a someone handed in a £10 note they'd just found on the floor. The following morning I did the briefing to everyone, I reminded them that a scout is honest, and that we had found a £10 note and would like to return it. Of course, a few wags yelled "mine!" instantly. But I insisted, if someone really thought they had lost a tenner, then to let their leader know and we'd sort it. One Explorer, probably 14 or 15, on the coaches to the days activity, opened his wallet to find just £10 not the £20 he'd come with. He told his leader. The leader gave him a hard stare, assured himself the lad was probably telling the truth, contacted us, then gave him a tenner, and later, we gave the leader the lost tenner. Yes, it sure did warm the cockles of our hearts. Of course, we can never be 100% sure, but I'm probably 85% sure the money was reunited with the right person, good enough for me.

If wikipedia is correct, we in the UK started allowing girls in all sections from 1991 optionally (i.e. the leaders chose if they wanted to) and made it compulsory in all sections in 2007. How's that for a gradual move? Of course, when we got to 2007 there were still a fair few that had to be leant on, or they left, to comply.

Thinking about it, I suspect for us some of our mothers like their daughters to have a decent male role model in their lives too. I.e. their daughters get to interact with a decent male, you know, that isn't a feckless wastrel like their father. Not many of them granted, but probably some. Probably cold comfort but sometimes it feels (and is) like that over here too.

Well, if they want 100,000s of Girl BSA Scouts (?!?) they're either going to knock that on the head or be shaking the magic female leader tree very hard indeed. Yes, adults can be accused of things, and yes, it ruins reputations no matter what the outcome, there's always a bit of a cloud hanging over them I'm sure. I'm not sure why the gender of the child accuser makes much difference. And yes, it happens in the UK too. We're having a bit of a spate of historic sex abuse cases going to court recently, but as they're historic, back to when there were no girls in the Boy Scouts, it's all about men and boys. I know leaders who have been drummed out for a jokey remark that was taken the wrong way when repeated to the parents out of context. So yes, care is needed. That's a pity. We do get the odd case of leaders being sued by parents, but I think it's quite unusual.

Just so you know, in the UK, you know, where membership numbers are Over the other side of the pond, I've probably said, there is no requirement for female leadership, it's a nice to have. Parents trust their young men and women to me and my fellow leaders because their kids want to be there (mostly) and they trust us. It doesn't seem to matter that we're guys. Campouts, well, we had one the other week where there were 23 Explorers, 9 young women, 14 young men, and three male leaders. It's not a problem. If one of the girls have a delicate first aid problem, they'd come to us and we'd deal with it, if they needed sanitary supplies, they'd probably ask around the other girls first, then ask us. Scout leaders are practical people. There's not much that's insurmountable. Not going to say it's going to be easy, and when organisations and committees get involved, it always seems to end up more complicated than it needs to be, but if you end up going down the co-ed road, what do you say when a boy is fearful of trying something new? I suspect it's not "walk away son, it's not worth it".