Eagle94-A1

@SiouxRanger Yes the IVF did have limitations due to the technology of the time. But can you come up with something better with the technology of the time? I think a lot of folks do not remember the limitations of the times. As for the folks who implemented the IVF, one was a top notch, well respected lawyer on youth issues at the time. His name was James E. West. As for other entities and abuse, what about the US Olympic Women's Gymnastic team? Penn State was already mentioned. And there are others that I cannot think of at the moment. If I can find my research notes, I will give you the stats you keep asking for. grant you my research is dated, did it in my undergrad days, but it is out there for folks to see. And if memory, serves other organizations besides sports are included. But remember, sexual abuse was something reported to authorities or prosecuted like to today. Even the IVF files note that parents did not want to subject their children to the trauma of a public trial. And mandatory reporting laws did not really come about for youth organization volunteers until the mid 1980s. So more than likely my information is underreported.

Again, if the SM designates a youth to sign off on advancement, SCOOUTBOOK will not allow it to be approved. An adult has to approve it, which defeats the purpose of Scouting in general, and the Patrol Methods specifically.

My question is specific to COs: Is National and/or councils responsible for the CO's liability since they were promised protection under BSA's policies? When this type of liability issue came up back in the day, I was told by my DFS to tell the IH that they were protected under BSA's insurance. Going back even further, while I was in college, the outdoor club was looking at joining some national organization for insurance, and they were told the same thing by the DE.

(sarcasm on) What's a 'Thank You?" (sarcasm off) I have not heard that sentence from a pro in ages. I too am a former pro, and I was taught you ALWAYS (major emphasis) take care of your volunteers, for without them you will not meet your goals. Sadly the pros in my neck of the woods do not understand that, and have not understood that for quite some time. At least 10 years, if not longer, the pros have been like this as a norm. Best case scenario was a DE planning an event 3-4 weeks prior to the event, asking folks to help, when those who could help were either going to, or coming from summer camp that same weekend. The DE sent out an email insulting the volunteers and blaming them for having to cancel the event. Worse is when the SE yells at your district chair. stating he had an incestuous relationship with their mother and to do anatomically impossible acts on themselves, all because of a disagreement over either an activity, volunteer to run an activity, or both. Worse part was the chair was a well respected, influential business leader in the community. Word of mouth spread about the incident, and FOS suffered.

Agree. But sometimes they are ignored, told they do not know what they are talking about, yelled at, or cursed out at (yes that has happened). Sometimes the experienced folks say the heck with it. and quit. Sadly in some cases it has gotten to the point in some areas that no one wants to be involved in district/council activities. Why spend all the time, energy, emotion, and money to run an event and not be appreciated or respected. As for long term camp, some units do not go to their summer camp because the complaints are never resolved. In fact sometimes it gets worse. When former staffers do not want to send their troops to camp There is a problem. When one of the most gung-ho, Flavoraid drinking, pro-council summer camp staffer, and long term staffers quits after the first week of camp, there is a problem.

One of the challenges as I see it, at least in my area, is that everyone thinks the bankruptcy is over. You tell them we still need to deal with the appeals process, and folks think you are a naysayer or rumormonger. But now we have this, which may affect COs and Councils. https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-scrutinize-purdue-pharma-bankruptcy-settlement-2023-08-10/ To quote Han Solo, et al, "I have a bad feeling about this." Understatement. right now only 2 Scouts in my unit are paying their own registration and council fees. everyone else is either using an insurance program, or have a unit scholarship. I know folks compare Scouting to sports and saying it is a deal. But there are families that can barely afford Scouting, even with assistance, and in no way can pay for sports. As for volunteers, I know a lot of old timers are getting tired. We see the mess BSA is in, offer ideas to improve the situation, and are ignored at best. Plus in my area there is a history of verbal abuse of volunteers, and they walk away. Plus the increase in fees also affects volunteers. inflation keeps rising, but my salary is not keeping up. Sadly I agree. I have no confidence in council and national professionals anymore. Locally, I asked about the new membership process and was told to keep doing what we have always done, pay the council office. I think National came out with direct payments scheme, before they had a system in place, or even thought how it would affect units.. Would not be the first time BSA created something without having things in place. Anyone else remember when Venturing split from Exploring? I can understand issuing Venturing, BSA strips for the Exploring BSA shirts in stock, but no pants, shorts, belts, or socks for the first one to two years depending upon the item. Also anyone else remember when the Centennial Uniforms came out, and the chaos it caused>

I worked at Scout camps in the USA from 1996 to 2001. CITs never had to pay. I know at one of the camps, they attended staff week with the rest of the paid staff. They were full fledged staff members with staff t-shirts, hats, polos, and dominoes (local staff emblem). They never had to pay to play. They helped the MBCs, and in a few cases were teaching classes. I remember a few were working in First Year Camping teaching basic T-2-1 skills with the retired Marine. I know we had some in the trading post, but they knew before they came to staff week they were going there. And for the last week, when it was slowest and were not needed as much, they did the HA program at the camp as a thank you. We took care of our CITs because we depended on them so much. Sorry cannot remember the second camp I worked at, but want to say they did as well.

I am shocked council got involved. we have had similar situations, and they will not intervene.

@Brannigan, Did council remove the person, or the CC remove them? I ask because when a similar situation occurred, I was told "Council does not get involved unless something criminal happens." If council removed them, then something more happened, and charges may be forthcoming.

All true. I would also add horrific leadership who will punish you if you do the right thing. Another factor probably not as well known is stress on family life. The divorce rate is extremely high among pros. Worse case was the DE who supported his wife through law school. First thing she did once admitted to the bar was serve him divorce papers. One of my coworkers was on wife three. The few exceptions are working twice as hard to meet their goals. And if the higher ups are on their case, even if meeting goals, they continue adding pressure to you until you want to quit. 100% correct. Add in get promoted to a national position. Seen a horrific SE get promoted to a national position. Sadly it seems that even if you get a good SE, he was "punished" for something. One of the best, honest, hardworking SE's I've ever met was "promoted" to an SE position that really was a demotion. He was a Director of Field Service in a very large metro council. He discovered some financial irregularities that eventually led to embezzlement charges. His "reward" was being promoted to one of the smallest councils in the BSA. One field director he had as DFS of the Metro council had more DEs under than, than the entire council he became SE of. It gets frustrating for the good ones.

Sadly @DuctTape is correct d some SEs are indeed despots. BSA pros have been going on for some time. I remember an SE telling his subordinates how to do it on the district level.

I actually heard of a council board firing the SE. Sadly he got hired in a larger council as a DFS.

I believe they are making it up as they go along. I had a bunch of questions regarding the new registration process, and the pros could not answer them except to say "Keep doing what you do now." To quote C3-P0,

What else is new. When I worked for national, I had someone over me who had no experience with the program or summer camp experience. I created a SOP manual that included diagrams, schedules, etc for a trading post. They had no idea what happens at camp, and wanted us to work ridiculous hours that would not have benefitted campers, Scouters, or staff. We ended up compromising by opening up the hours I knew would work, and staying open during during the hours they wanted. Long story short, sales data showing the most productive hours had to be used to show the times I suggested worked. Further they thought they knew better about how to organize the shop., but didn't communicate this. Long story short, they got mad when we rearranged the shop according to the diagram in the SOP manual they approved. They stopped by to visit what they thought would be a slow time. It was actually the busiest, and the design of the store was shown to be better than what they set up.

Have you any evidence that BSA covered up crimes? In the reports I have read, once BSA became aware of the situation they removed the individual from Scouting. Depending upon jurisdiction, mandatory reporting laws came for youth volunteers came about in the late 1970s to late 1980s (first mandatory reporting laws only protected physicians from false reports, and they started in the late 1960s/early 1970s). In the files I have read, it is noted that parents did not want to prosecute the pedophile because they did not want their child to relive the horrors in court. One file showed a pedophile going to a mental institution instead of jail because the parents would not press charges. Once he was released from the mental institution, he moved to a new location, and applied to work for the BSA. If it wasn't for the Ineligible Volunteer File that had him in it, he may have gotten hired since he did have a clean background. Another situation I am aware of was never reported to anyone.. The individual was a 'well respected and upright member of the community," Individual knew no one would believe him, except his parents, and he did not want his father taking the law into his own hands. He does not blame BSA, but the abuser, who is now long dead.

I understand, but you did state: and I responded. And yes, the records were lost, deleted, etc. Let's face it, BSA's technology is horrible. Most of the CIOs had none, zero, zip IT experience. They were a former SEs who put their time in. I know 1 person in that position with an IT background, and he left in approximately 6 months. Do not know who has been in charge since him.

Agree too many system, and they have too many issues. Whichever system system tracks training, records FOR ALL VOLUNTEER IN MY COUNCIL ( emphasis) went MIA twice in a 5 year period. Yes i do have multiple ID numbers from the 6 councils I have been in over the years. But I've been in my current council for some time, and the records have been corrected using my current ID. But you reminded me that I am still waiting for a promise made in 1998 by BSA's CIO that SCOUTNET 2000 would easily transfer records as you move councils. All your ID numbers were suppose to be automatically connected. Well if my and every volunteer in my council's records were not lost, why did the registrar ask everyone to submit training records to her twice in a 5 year period? Eagle is the latest example. Scoutbook has dropped rank advancement, even stuff I personally inputted, and printed reports for. Also for some reason my records got altered for my Scouts? Scoutbook says they were members of a pack that did not exist when they were Cubs.

Then why did I have to submit training records twice in a 3 year period? Why have I had to resubmit records multiple times? Heck I have gone in and fixed things, only to have information missing or inaccurate? Heck it got to the point that one of my Eagles does not care that the record has the wrong date of him earning Eagle.

Sadly some councils do not give a fig for the volunteers. And when the volunteers stop working on the district level, they wonder why. Between the long hours, lousy pay, horrible managers, and stress it an cause, both health wise and family wise, it is not worth it. And most can find private sector jobs that can double their salaries. One former coworker actually tripled his DE salary when he left. Be thankful. Some councils will have their professional staff ignore your input, yell, scream, curse you out, or remove you from your position (if you do not quit first) for having a view that does not align with the pros. We got some new professionals, and they are scratching their heads as to why no one will volunteer to be on the district level. There may be some hope, albeit a fools hope. New pro is a former volunteer, and when talking about some of the issues, was shocked and disgusted at them. To paraphrase Animal Mother in FULL METAL JACKET: He talks the talk, but can he walk the walk? That use to be the norm, despite a 3 year contract. In my neck of the woods I am on my 4th DE within 12 months. So you are doing great. I have never seen volunteers be the reason why DEs leave, and I have been around a while. In fact when I was a pro, all of my coworkers left for the same reason: the horrible management creating unrealistic goals. The volunteers were one of the few good things about the job. As for council backing the volunteer over the professional, I have seen it once, and that was because the volunteer was a big donor. Donor's son was caught stealing at camp and sent home by the camp director. CD's boss made him reinstate him on camp staff. Fortunately he was moved into a position where he no longer had the opportunity to steal, plus everyone watched him like a hawk.

This is a National fee increase, and was first mentioned at the May National Annual Meeting. Just be glad your council doesn't charge additional, council specific, fees.

There are a variety of reasons why units do not use SCOUTBOOK. 1. SCOUTBOOK does have a history of dropping data, and incorrect data, so units do not consider reliable. In fact whenever discrepancies have been found between a council's records and the handbook's records, the handbook overrides the online records because that contains the actual, physical, signatures. I have had Scouts up for Eagle being told they are only First Class because of dropped records. I have Scouts whose histories are incorrect with wrong information listed, and in some cases unchangeable. Worst case example was adult training. I spent 18+ months getting my district's training records updated because no one was listed a s trained. within 24 months of me turning in the information to get fixed, all those records disappeared. Thankfully I had the original work on hand ,and only had to collect folks who had done training since the original project. 2. Some areas of the country do not have reliable internet. There are large areas in my council that do not have highspeed internet, and in a few cases internet at all. During the pandemic we had students in parking lots and on benches at school campuses using the schools wifi because they either the internet was too sow, or nonexistant. 3. A handbook is a lot easier to carry camping, and internet service may be spotty where you are at. 4. SCOUTBOOK does not allow youth to sign off on advancement, only adults with authorization can do advancement. This defeats the purpose of Scouting. 5. The most important thing to remember is that (emphasis) THE SCOUT HANDBOOK IS THE OFFICIAL RECORD AS THE SIGNATURES AE IN IT. As I stated in #1 above, whenever there are discrepancies or missing information, the handbook is used to fix the electronic records, not the other way around. I cannot tell you how many times in my 31 years as a Scouter that I have seen electronic advancement records missing or incorrect over the years. This includes records that I had submitted either by hand pre-INTERNET ADVANCEMENT, or records I personally inputted, and were missing.

Great question. I would ask. And if they still do not produce one, use the Order of the Arrow's Where to Go Camping Book as that is a publication of the council. That is what a lot of packs do in my area. My council A) has never produced a list, even when members of the Council's Cub Scout Camping Committee ask for, and was pushing it to be made. A direct quote from a member of the Council's Camping Committee, which we the Cub Committee was under was " Cubs don't need to camp." Also several several of the council's properties failed to meet basic BALOO camping standards, yet they held overnight Cub camping events there anyway.

I think the SEs complained, especially since they may lose money with units not camping at council camps*. I know the councils I have been in charged a flat, weekend fee fro Friday through Sunday. Federal, state and local camps I have been to have charged a per night rate, comparable or cheaper than the council rates for the weekend. So why pay for a full weekend, when you can pay for one nite elsewhere? *I have been told that some councils have only approved council camps for Cubs, basically creating a monopoly on campsites for them. If you are in one of those councils, I would love to hear about it.

@RichardB, any reason for going back to the previous policy?

Posted on a district website. 1