Eagle94-A1

Back in 2010, there was a test out. Wish there was one again. Instead I have used folks who need the couirse to staff and teach those sections they are experts in. it works.

@fred8033 I guess it all relates to relationships to local nations. Growing up, once the chapter and lodge decided to "go local" we got a lot of support from the local nation. We had Native Americans in the lodge, one being a chapter adviser, that helped.We had elders and council members coming out to help us get it right. Found out we were restablishing the relationship with them. When the lodge's AIA group was really active years earlier, they contributed to research and awareness of them to get state recognition, and was helping them in their appeal for federal recognition. In my current lodge, we have an extremely good relationship with several local nations. Heck a bunch of Native American Arrowmen, got together at OA events and formed a drum that is popular on the east coast powwow circuit.

Did it several times. First time was in the 1993-1998 time frame, as a youth and adult Arrowman. It was not intentional, but something sparked AIA, and it grew in the chapter and lodge. In 2001-2004 did it deliberately to start a chapter that died. Started with the drum and singers, moved out to dancing, then ceremony teams. Last time was the 2007-2010 time frame. Reignited my chapter using AIA, and it spread to the lodge. While my chapter has slowly died when my replacement chapter chief stepped down and no one was willing to step up. That was about 2014 or thereabouts

Spot on. My chapter was dying out because all the chapter did was "work work work." No ceremony teams (an aside, one of the reasons the teams died out was because they went to black robes after doing Philmont's OA Trail Crew. Many in my council considered them "Satanic" and threatened to quit OA and Scouting.), no fun days, didn't even go to conclave or lodge fellowship events because they always corresponded to Cub Scout events the OA ran a fundraiser at. OA was known as "slave labor." It took two years, but we had a 180 degree turn around. While getting the Cub folks to change event dates helped a lot, and we planned fun events, the #1 reason for the improvement was American Indian Affairs (AIA) consisting of ceremonies, singers, and dancers. People started seeing us outside of working all the time. We inspired Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts with our ceremonies (another aside, current lodge chief got his motivation to join the OA from his Cross Over Ceremony we did ), and it reinvigorated the chapter.

As Thunderbird points out, people do not care about history. Just as people today do not remember that the OA was founded before Native Americans were citizens, who could not speak their languages or perform their religious and social ceremonies in the open, and thus the OA worked with Native American nations to preserve their heritage, no one will remember the original meaning of the fasces. They will only remember Mussolini and his use of the fasces and his work with Hitler.

I thought one of the reasons why registration increased 275% in an 8 year period was to cover background checks.

More than you know. I know one unit that had a "DL" with a 20 year old possession with the intent to distribute conviction. Paperwork was sent to council. Never heard back from then. Found out at recharter he was not listed. Council said they notified the CO, but the pack's leadership was never informed. Also my wife submitted 3 applications to be an ADL. One of those hand delivered to the DE. Didn't find out she was not registered until the pack went to submit a Heroism Award app for her. Pack was ticked, and wife, who has been registered previously in 3 councils, including the current one we are in.

A wise man once said that "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." Sadly the folks at national cannot do math, nor can they remember history. Anyone remember the recent BSHB that said outing is 2/3s of Scouting? And I agree, lose the outdoor emphasis, you lose Scouting. Anyone remember the 1970s Improved Scouting Program fiasco that took the "Outing out of Scouting?" Anyone remember when camping was not required to earn Eagle? Anyone remember the drastic membership decline that forced a CSE to retire early, and bring back William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt out of retirement? I am so glad I was a Scout in the 1980s and used his last BSHB. While my original copy with all my advancement signatures is long gone, My most prized treasure is the copy of that edition one of my Eagles tracked down and got me, long before Ebay and Amazon were popular.

You have not met some of the folks working for our National HQ. If they can screw up something, they will. I should know. I use to work for National. Some folks have no clue what goes on in Scouting outside of their offices. Sadly you are correct.

Sounds like a case of "White Coat Syndrome." I too have "high" blood pressure when I got to the doc's office. Had me monitor the pressure twice a week at work for a while and it was normal. But when I came to him, it was high. heck one time I has it checked 30 minutes before my appointment and it was borderline low. But once I got to the doc's office, yep it was high again. Put me on blood pressure meds. I took them and was not my normal self. I ended up stop taking them because I almost passed out as my pressure dropped drastically. Thankfully I was atr work. As others have stated, get it checked out, talk to your doc. From what I have heard, most strenuous activity is walking from the campsite to the dining hall.

They are. And council's have to buy those registration cards.

If memory serves, councils have to buy those cards. national would want them issued,.

While I know what the DE will say, I was a DE once and had a unit in a similar situation, I have told them they need to have a meeting with the district commissioner and DE. Currently we have no district chair. Hopefully hearing how they can dismiss a adults from the troop from them will cause them to act. The situation is indeed toxic, the troop has already lost scouts and potential Scouts, and may have more leaving in the future unless the situation is corrected ASAP.

FYI, not trying to be negative, but I'm in a sour mood because of a conversation I had with an ASM today. More on that later. It is a great idea for a normal troop. The problem making families would skip the camp out. Seriously we had the patrols do a 5 mile hike at a well established state park, and they were freaking out because adults were not going with the Scouts. While the other Scouts would have fun and benefit, the problem makers would not. Along those lines, one of the things that helped renew interest in the program and help with some of the challenges with the youth and Scouters was our AT trips. Basically the youth raced ahead and had camp set up and chilling while the adults took their time getting to the campsite for the nite. While it was not the entire troop, it really got the older Scouts pumped, and it infected the younger guys. Even one of the ASMs who really didn't believe in Patrol Method and Boy Led concepts, the one who once said he "hopes the Scouts fail so they realize they need us" had an epiphany and saw Boy Led in action on that trip. And of course once he converted to the Dark Side, he moves ouot of state :). Anyway, back to the conversation I had with an ASM today. Spent an hour talking. He is concerned about the trouble makers suing the Scouters and CO over the matter. Both families have "influence and affluence," coming from old money families locally. Both are used to getting their ways as a result. And I was reminded of the implied threat one of the fathers made at a parents' meeting. He asked if we could give him 100% guarantee nothing would happen to his son if he was with the troop. I am not joking. And from some of the comments the dad has made, and hearing stories about the family from others who have dealt with them, I see them suing.

"WWWHHH000000 BBBUUUDDDDDDDDDDYYYYY!" as Shug would say.

YES! Everything but the Board of Review must be signed off as completed prior to 18, which is December 26th. Since the EBOR must also sign off on it, as long as it is turned in and all of the signatures on it, except the EBOR are dated prior to 12-26-18, he is good. One thing I would do as insurance, MAKE A DIGITAL COPY AND PHOTOCOPY OF THE COMPLETED APPLICATION!!!!! (emphasis) Not only save it, but I would email mail it to the registrar with a note saying the original is in the mail. SEND THE APPLICATION CERTIFIED MAIL OR HAND DELIVER AND TAKE A PHOTO OF THE LIFE SCOUT DROPPING IT OFF! ( again emphasis) We had issues in my council, and the photos helped. Also submitted an electronic copy of the app since "we never received the application." Pictures and ecopy helped out in speeding the delayed approval process. We found out they "never received the application" 3 months after the BOR.

You really don't want to know. I thought leaving for another troop would get me out of it, but I keep getting sucked in. One reason is it is my friends. I hate seeing them be abused by these families. Another is a promise I made tot he late SM: I would not let the troop die again after he passed away. But most importantly the Scouts. I do not want them in a toxic situation, and I feel I have abandoned them. I admit the troop had issues before these two families showed up. But the troop was slowly and steadily improving. Hard work is one thing, aggravation to the point of quitting is another.

I agree completely. The SM thinks the program can do the sons good. But if they cannot escape the parents, it is lost. And I have told them they can get rid of them. One reason why the COR is on board is that A) he actually does BORs and he's heard some complaints and B) because the families have ignored the SM and ASMs, he thought policy coming fromt he CO would make it more palatable for the problem-making families. Trust me, I told them multiple times that they can nip the problem in the bud and tell them to leave. While I am all for helping Scouts out, when it is affecting the rest of the troop, you need to make give an either/or choice: either follow the rules or leave. And with the letter one family wrote stating a parent needs to go because of a peanut allergy and they do not trust their son to use the EpiPen properly, nor apparently the other Scouts or the Scouters, I beleive ti may finally come to it.

I wish it was that easy. The troop had 5 additional parents' meetings over them. Just as soon as we think the matter is settled, they do something again. I keep telling the Scouters it's time for them to give them 2 choices: follow the rules or leave. Yes indeed. That and do not put them on any fundraising projects.

GREAT SCOTT ONE OF THE FAMILIES IS A PAIN! I am no longer with them, but hearing what they are putting my friends through is ticking off. One of the trouble makers wrote a letter asking for permission to camp since son has a peanut allergy. He stated he does not trust his son to use his EpiPen properly. Apparently he also does not trust the other Scouts, nor the Scouters, to be able to treat his son. Considering we have folks who have basic FA certs, WFA certs, as well as RN and MD behind their names, I do not think using an epipen will be a problem. Plus we have several other Scouts with the same allergy. I think the troop has FA covered. Told my friends they need to give him a choice, follow the CO's rules, or join one of the other troops in the area. If only this happened a year ago.

As you know, I left a troop because two sets of parent caused so many problems interfering that my sons and I had it. We left and are much happier with the troop we are with. But we still have friends with that troop, and I do have Scouts still with them, so I am still in communication with them. Plus I am listed as their UC. Anyway, the COR has intervened and stated only fully trained ASMs on trips now. They did this because of complaints from the Scouts about interfering adults, problems at the camporee that had the SM and several ASMs want to quit, and my family quitting. Core adults Scouters and COR had a chat over the problem, and he is intervening. All of the families were OK with this rule, except 3, and the two loudest in their protestations are the 2 trouble-making families. As you know from previous threads on these two, there have been 5 parent meetings called because they were interfering, multiple private sessions with one family over their interference, threats to leave camp outs if they didn't get their way (which would leave the troop stranded), and in one instance one family actually did leave when they didn't get their way (thankfully there were enough drivers that it didn't affect us). So there is a history of ignoring the SM and ASMs and doing there own thing. Talking to an ASM about the matter there is a concern that they will ignore the CO's new directives, and just show up. So what are some consequences for offending adults I can suggest to help this troop and CO out? I can only think of 2: A) If the families show up cancel the trip and send everyone home. B) CO sends a letter that their sons are no longer welcome to in the troop and here are some alternate troops for you to consider. I do not think A is a viable option since it hurts the entire troop, and morale is now low. Canceling trips will only hurt Scouts. Option B is really a last resort option, but it may come down to it. The troop has lost one a Life Scout, First Class Scout and ASM, over the two problem families. Another Star Scout and his ASM dad, have been considering leaving over them. And on the last camp out, the SM and several ASMs almost quit over these two families interference. Worse, it is believed that their interference has caused 1/2 of Webelos den to join a different troop. Apparently the parents meeting, which had Webelos 2 parents in it, was very acrimonious between these two families, and the core adult Scouters. And half the den decided to go elsewhere in the two weeks between the parents meeting and Cross over. In fact the troop found out about this 3 days before Cross Over. So any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I was one of those Scouts who got elected on the third go around. First year I was eligible, I didn't even vote for myself because the three others eligible were much better choices AND I COULD ONLY PICK TWO (emphasis). I am saddened that my Oldest, who has been eligible for 3 years now has declined to put his name on the ballot because he has no interest in the OA now. This from the kid who helped me build the chapter's drum stand before he was a Cub. And my middle son, who became eligible this year, also declined to put his name on the ballot. Some Arrowmen do care, and are disgusted at some of the things allowed. But I was told National has PROHIBITED lodges from ejecting anyone from the Ordeals. Notching arrows and/or ejecting folks is considered hazing, and not allowed. Once a person is a candidate, only the candidate can remove themselves from the Ordeal, not the lodge. We had an incident where an adult candidate was talking up a storm, complaining about all the work that he was being forced to do. I was all for sending him home when the lodge adviser told me that is no longer an option because national considers it "hazing." All we could do was separate him from the rest of the candidates so his negativity would not affect them. Irony was one of the "Friends" working with the candidates was on medical restrictions, and was pushing the envelope to set a good example.

While there is more to the OA than ceremonies and camp maintenance, these two items are the heart and soul of the OA. The original purpose was to recognize HONOR CAMPERS (emphasis) and not be just an honor society. Arrowman are charged with promoting camping and maintaining council camps. Service is the heart of the OA. When National changed the OA from National Brotherhood of Honor Campers" to the "National Honor Society of the Boy Scouts of America " in 1995 or thereabouts, the OA lost some of it's heart. The Native American based ceremonies were created to inspire and motivate potential members and Arrowmen. The ceremonies created a unique experience to get the Order's purpose instilled in them. These ceremonies were the soul of the OA. I still remember my first experience with the OA: my Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies. And while some memories of my Ordeal Ceremony are hazy due to exhaustion at the time and other Ordeal Ceremonies I attended as a "Friend" to candidates, I do remember being inspired to continue my journey in Scouting and the Order. I remember as a ceremonialist the looks of those Scouts' faces and seeing them proud, inspired, and motivated. One of the ways I would reinvigorate OA chapters, or even start a new chapter, was the creation of ceremony teams to inspire and motivate others. And it worked. THAT IS BECAUSE THE CEREMONIES ARE THE SOUL OF THE ORDER. ( emphasis) When the 63 ADULTS (emphasis) on the national OA committee would not listen to the overwhelming majority of it youth members voices, and stated no more Native American regalia for Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies, the soul of the OA was greatly diminished. And I predict that soon, the OA 's soul will be completely dead as the ceremonies will be changed to remove any Native American influence.

UNDERSTATEMENT! I've seen the OA slowly deteriorate since National decided some aspect of the Ordeal is 'hazing." and had to be stopped. Now there are no consequences for not following the challenges. Nor are there any consequences when one defiantly and deliberately violates the Ordeal challenges except to create a separate work party by themselves. Whereas once the lodge could have sent the problem home, now the lodge has to accept the problem as a member.And they will be a "sash and dasher." And the deterioration accelerated when National changed the current election procedure in the 1990s. Whereas it was truly an honor to get elected because only 1/2 of those eligble could be written on the ballot, the honor has been diminished now that everyone eligible can be written on the ballot.

Sadly we had an incident in my council 20 years ago where a mom, dad, and grandfather, serving as committee chairman, ASM, and SM respectively, signed off on a bunch of requirements and MBs. When it came time for his Eagle BOR, it was obvious that he did not do the work. Eagle BOR followed procedure, came up with a plan and asked him to come back when completed. family appealed to council, and the council concurred with the district EBOR. Family then appealed to national. National granted the Eagle stating you don't punish the Scout because of the adults in the unit. Entire district advancement committee resigned in protest.