Eagle94-A1

With all due respect, nothing in the CO agreement prohibits it. Nor is there any prohibition in the Guide to Safe Scouting. Only place that rule can be found is NCAP, and how many units use that since that is for district/council level day camps and camps? Besides, BSA has a history of changing the rules with little to no advance notice. Remember when 18-20 years olds could not count from as a second adult from February 1, 2018 to March 10? It got changed from because units complained because they did not have enough adults to cover summer camp and HA bases. You guys decided to wait until October 1, 2018. And don't forget the Dodgeball ban. From at least 1929 until 2018/19, Dodgeball was an approved game in SMHBs and Troop Program Resources.

There are 3 troops that have the same CO. They have been putting on their own summer camp and allowing others to attend for ages. Do not know if they still do it or not. It was 1/3 of the cost, but each unit had to provide MBCs for x number of Scouts attending. I am told it was a high quality camp, but never attended. I also do not know when the "2 or more units = distirct/council event" went into effect. I remember joint camping with other units. I do know that as early as 2010, that rule was in effect, but in my council not widely known. Then again, my council didn't know Cub Scout Family Camping standards existed until 2010. " Cubs don't need to camp" was the attitude.

What is legally right is not always morally right.

Actually it could be viewed the other way, National is throwing the COs under the bus. The Charter Agreement states, "Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the Chartered Organization, its board, officers, COR, employees, and Scouting members and volunteers for authorized Scouting activities. Indemnify the Chartered Organization in accordance with the resolutions and policies of the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America.." This needs to come up in the bankruptcy and abuse settlement. National took on this responsibility to the COs, they need to be held responsible. And of course, the insurance companies the BSA used should be held accountable for paying these claims.

I have not, but I shared the Baptist link above to my IH/ASM (don't ask, he wants to be an ASM and not the IH/COR/CC). He will be going up through his hierarchy.

We some of us asked about this, we were told "NO!" (emphasis in original) by the council. Day camps, council family camps, and Webeloree were our events.

The way I see it, if National is allowing online outdoor training now, changes to advancement so that virtual camping is allowed for ranks AND MBs, changes to OA eligibility to include virtual camping, etc, then everything is on the table due to COVID.

Succession planning is key. Getting the right adult in charge is vital. I have seen what happens when the wrong adult takes over. He nearly destroyed a troop. Having an Interim or Emergency SM is fine, but EVERYONE needs to be working on finding a successor. A few comments. 1) Unit key three (SM, CC, and COR) need to meet to come up with a list of potential names. 2) At least 2 of the three, but all three if possible, should meet with the prospective successor, and make the pitch. This needs to be done privately so if the person declines and you need to go to the next person on the list, no one feels slighted. TRUST ME ON THIS! (emphasis). One new SM found out he was not the old SM and CC's first pick, and it created a problems for all involved, including the one who rejected the position. 3) Delegation and having a good, supportive ASM team is vital. SM's can't do everything, they need to delegate to reliable people. And you got to know your folks strengths and weaknesses. We have one ASM who cannot camp on weekends due to his job. But Saturday trips, summer camp, etc he is "da bomb." 4) Me personally, I would avoid just from the Cub Scout ranks adults as SM. They need to "unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda would say. They need time to make the adjustment to Scouts BSA, and some mentoring in troop culture.

The 18 to 24 month Webelos program is designed to be the bridge for Cub Scouts to prepare them for Scouts BSA. From my personal experience (back when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program), from completing the old Cub Scout Leader Basic Training ( CSBLT, a full day course covering ALL Cub Scout positions), and observation of those units following the program correctly, IT WORKS (emphasis)! What is suppose to happen is the Webelos Den Leader starts implementing elements of the Scouts BSA program, and starts having the parents back away and allowing the Cubs to do stuff on their own. The elected Denner is suppose to take some responsibility, hopefully under the guidance of a Den Chief, but if not with the WDL. WDL training goes over the differences between Cub Scout Dens and Webelos Dens and how the purpose is to prepare them for Scouts BSA. Webelos Dens are suppose to do some things with a Scout troop, and hopefully develop relationships. While the CSBLT was longer, because it covered all CS leader position, IMHO it was better because it went into the details and differences with every role. You didn't have to do training every time your den moved up, and redo sections you had already done previously. I do not know how it is with the current online format, but I have heard a lot of complaints about how it is hard to keep track of the various modules you need to do to complete the different training programs. Plus locally we have folks with internet connectivity issues making online training harder. Then you add in the human factor, I've already taken Den Leader Specific Training, why do I need WDL Specific, they are still Cubs I know what I am doing attitude. Also you can add the this is how I have always done it, it works and I am not changing attitude. Finally att some of the the Cubs aren't ready for this attitude, and the transition doesn't happen like it is suppose to. Grant you this is anecdotal, but I will give you an example. One troop I was in had Webelos from 2 packs join with different mentalities. First pack started the transition process as soon as they became Webelos. They elected a denner who took on some responsibility, did camping with a troop the both years, started doing things on their own without parents' help etc. They would allow Scouts to teach certain Activity Badges, like Castaway By the time December hit of 5th grade, they were ready to go. The Cubs, and their parents joined a troop, and had no problems whatsoever. The Second pack would not begin the transition process until 5th grade, if then. Parents never did allow the Cub Scouts do things on their own. When Scouts offered to help teach skills, like Castaway, they were rebuffed by the parents. Both Webelos dens were invited to the troop's Wilderness Survival Camp Out so they could apply what they learned for Castaway. Den 1 planned to stay the nite, den 2 turned it into a day trip. Den 1 packed like they were taught, brought survival kits and the supplies they would need including food that didn't need to be refrigerated. Den 2 had the parents carrying a large cooler, and did not have everything they needed. Den 1 Scouts went right to it, building individual shelters, starting their fires, etc. In fact 2 of the Webelos had their shelters built, fires going, and cooking their lunch before the Scouts finished building their shelters! Den 2 goofed off, did not follow the directions of the Scout working with them, had their parents cook for them, and eventually had the parents build a group survival shelter right before they left so they could get it signed off. And I would not let anyone sleep in it if it was going to rain, because it was that bad. Den 1 Crossed Over January 2nd ( Castaway Weekend was after the last meeting in December, and they wanted the badge), and 4 years later all of them are still active. Den 2 Crossed Over in March, and within 3 months, 1/2 the den dropped out. Common reason was it was not what they expected. 4 years later, only 1 remains active. The only changes I would suggest, besides training, would be to make Scouting Adventure a Webelos Badge requirement instead of AOL. Get the Cubs, and more importantly the parents prepping for Scouting ASAP. This is a bit of a sore point for me because I am friends with one of the folks on the committee that came up with the original changes (If your Webelos like Castaway, You are welcome ) , and National not only did NOT tell the committee the December 2016 changes were being made, they did not even allow the original changes a chance by changing the requirements 17 months after implementation. Anyone who attended the Roundtable sessions leading up to the changes knew the changes would require a lot more planning because 1) they were new, and 2) some of the requirement were much more involved. I know that my pack had attendance at those RT, and we planned for the changes. We had very minor problems implementing the 2015 program, and many DLs were not happy when the 2016 changes came about. Long story short, we kept our original program we planned, and kept the original 2015 requirements because it was not fair to anyone to change them mid year. Locally the packs that did not attend RT had major issues and were not prepared for the 2015 changes. I am told by my friend that a lot of Packs apparently did not prepare properly, and complained. Camping got cut because some councils apparently still have the attitude "Cubs don't need to camp." My council does not have a dedicated Cub Scout approved camp ground list. Closest we have is the OA's WHERE TO GO CAMPING book, that many packs use. Yes the youth need to do a better job communicating. I even see it with ILST Scouts. But the Webelos program as I mentioned above is suppose to give a taste of what lies ahead in Scouts BSA. Some of the issues DO occur at the Webelos level, and I have found if you talk to the parents then, it won't hurt as much when the Scouts are in a troop. DITTO! Being a Scouter is an art, not a science, it takes, patience, time, training, and teamwork to get the right balance between Interfering and Guiding. I have described being a Scouter as walking a tightrope, because it is. And I would make the tightrope Zing It, when it comes to my hoodlums. One of my mentors had would jokingly say, 'Is anyone dead? No! OK, is anyone going to the hospital? NO! then we don't have a problem." I need some sleep will finish up tomorrow

Don't get me started on adult interference and PLCs. Worst PLC I ever attended started off on the wrong foot, when one adult said a separate meeting night isn't needed for the PLC and their Annual Planning Meeting, it could be done in 30-45 minutes. SPL not only didn't get a separate meeting, having to cram it into 35 minutes before a troop meeting, but the adults starting jumping in and canceling ideas before the PLC even discussed them. SPL got so fed up, he basically sat back and let the adults in the room run it. And trying to stop them and get the SPL back in charge was impossible to do.

GREAT QUESTION! The reason why 'Youth Led" keeps coming up in Scouting is because it is the heart of Scouting, yet it is not fully practiced, and in some units embraced. And as @TAHAWK points out, BSA has not had a true explanation of the Patrol Method in the literature and training for a very long time. You would have to look at William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's work to get a true understanding, and his last handbook and training material was from my youth. Is it any wonder folks will say their troop is "youth led" when in reality it is not? And to be honest, while I say my troop is youth led, is not fully youth led if you go by Hillcourt's work. While the PLC is planning activities, meetings, etc, The PLs are not doing the advancement sign offs. That is currently restricted to the SPL, but we are slowly moving towards that. The SM does have concerns about if the Scouts are responsible enough for that. And that leads into some of the reasons why youth led is not practiced and embraced. Some of the most obvious reasons is that it is a messy, unorganized by adult standards, and chaotic process. Adults know there is a better way, but do not have the patience to let the Scouts figure it out on their own. Scouts will make mistakes, and it is hard for some adults to let their Scouts make mistakes. Sometimes the adults think because the Scouts made mistakes, they are not ready for responsibility, ignoring the fact that making mistakes is a learning tool. Also repetition is a learning tool. The more something is done, the better you get at it. Sometimes the adults do not like the decisions the Scouts have made, and believe "Scouting needs to change with the times." best example I have of that is the SM who appoints all the PLs, troop leadership, and SPL because "the same people keep getting elected over and over, and [appointing the leaders] makes it fair for everyone]. The Scouts have a better understanding of each other than we do, and this SM was ignoring the fact that the Scout not getting elected was causing the most problems. Sometimes adults are not comfortable being in the background, they need to do something. And sometimes you have adults that cannot let go, they cannot accept the fact that the Scout is growing up. F Other times, adults are using their own experience as an example, and that experience may not be the best one. One SM grew up in the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s, and his troop rarely camped. He doesn't understand why camping is so important. Another SM was in a troop was run like the military unit because his SM was prior military, issuing commands to the PLC. That is the model he uses with his troop. Finally some adults get so focused on false metrics, i.e. FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR, Number of Eagle Scouts, JTE, etc that they forget we are suppose to be developing youth, not meeting some false goal.

The emphasized sentence concerns me greatly because if trained Scouters do not understand this, we are in deep trouble. YOUTH LED VIA THE PATROL METHOD IS THE FOUNDATION OF SCOUTING! (emphasis). The fun programs you mention and others: sports, 4-H, band, robotics, church groups, school, etc all have adults telling the kids what to do, how to do it, etc. Scouting is suppose to let the youth be in charge with adults guiding and mentoring. Youth make the decisions, do the planning and organizing, conduct the activities, etc. For many youth in Scouting, this the first time they actually do what they want to do, and it IS magical. Youth led is messy, disorganized, and full of trial and error. The Scouts may seem like they are flailing about. BUT, in the long term they learn and grow so much faster. Sadly I am seeing more adult led troops and troops that allow adults to interfere needlessly in the patrols. My sons and I left a troop like that because it was not Scouting. Scouts were getting frustrated at the adult interference to the point they "zoned out." They had no true reason to be there except because they wanted to get Eagle or they were forced to. When we switched to a true youth-led troop, it was a world of difference in attitudes. My boys went from apathetic and sarcastic complainers who gave up trying to run their patrols to active, sympathetic, Scouts willing to take charge and be successful with fun activities. I have worked with youth professionally in my career. I have been deeply concerned how many youth today have no interest in taking initiative and responsibility for themselves. I have seen it when i was organizing job shadowing experiences at the hospital, and I see it at the college. Parents making all the decisions and doing all the work for their high school, and in some cases college students. Worse case, mom was ticked off she could not be at the academic counseling session due to COVID. Student got the schedule and classes he wanted. When Mom was informed, she was ticked off, yelled through the door the schedule is screwed up and she will be redoing it as soon as she is able to. What life lessons did that college student learn? Youth led does a heck of a lot more than "make a tedious program more enjoyable." It gives them a chance to make decisions, problem solve, responsibility, plan, provide leadership, make mistakes and learn from them, independence, and self reliance. I agree with you the advancement. The Advancement Method has been so corrupted over the years by National, that is is nowhere near it's original purpose by Baden-Powell. The original purpose of Advancement was to provide a series of skills and experiences that Scouts challenged themselves to complete. Mastery of the skill was required, and rewarded with a badge. Nowadays the focus is on getting First Class in a year, getting Eagle, getting X number of MBs, etc that some Scouts are not truly getting the full benefit of the advancement program. I'd rather have the 16 year old Life Scout who did a 50 miler in the Canadian wilderness who truly earned First Aid MB do first aid on me to save my life than the Life Scout, about to make Eagle, who did not know what shock was and how to treat it at a first aid competition. The purpose of advancement is to learn life skills, not get Eagle, X number of MBs, etc. And too many adults have forgotten that. One of the reasons it is fun is because they have their freedom. They make the decisions. They have the responsibility. Yes camping is fun. But deciding where to camp, what activity THEY want to do, what meals THEY want to cook, etc is freedom that they do not have in other fun activities.

Not a lawyer, so bear with me if it's a stupid question. Wasn't part of the charter agreement, and part of the CO's charter fees, insurance to cover stuff like this? Wouldn't teh BSA still be liable?

At least in my neck of the woods, sad, but true. We lost a lot of experienced Scouters, and have not recovered yet. One challenge the remaining experienced Scouters are having is that the inexperienced folks want things their way. No matter what type of training you do for them, counselling or discussion you have with them, they will tell you Scouting needs to change with the times and their way is better, ignore you, or become downright nasty with you. I have had inexperienced adults threaten to leave if they didn't get their way, thus stranding Scouts and ruining program. I have been yelled that I don't know what I am doing when i have tried to talk to some folks.

Agree. Historically it was the female Scouters, but I am seeing more and more male Scouters interfering. TRUTH! The SM of the troop I mentioned above was an Eagle from the 1970s. He could not understand why camping was so important. Also he appointed troop leaders so that "everyone could get a chance." One of my sons' Webelos den was camping with the troop, and I was up talking to the Scouts around the campfire. I knew a bunch of them from their time in Cub Scouts. Long story short, the discussion of how a troop is suppose to run, elections, etc comes up in the conversation with them. The a loud "SHUT UP AND GO TO BED" is yelled. Another SM was in an adult led troop that allowed siblings to attend growing up. He followed that model when he became SM. No amount of training could convince him he was doing things incorrectly. He knew better because he is an Eagle Scout.

I saw this first hand, and the troop initially lost experienced Scouts. Once the experienced Scouts left, they didn't get many new Scouts that stayed around. It wasn't until they got an adult with a youth background, and the Webelos III parents left, that the troop finally settled down. But it took 7 years to get back on track, and they still have a ways to go.

Friend showed me a DIY gravity set up. 2L drink bottle with the bottom cut out for water intake. Screw on a Sawyer Squeeze filter to the bottle. And get some food grade hose from a home improvement store. It works.

First, your link does not mention anything anything about a "research question/theory," and talks about how to conduct polls. @Eagledad did have a research question for his survey, "Why did you leave Scouting?" which according to your link, is an acceptable type of question for a survey. I think you are confusing the Scientific Method, a specific type of research method, and research methods in general. The Scientific Method is the one that has a theory that you perform tests, experiments, etc to prove or disprove your theory. And it is one type of research method. You see this in science and medicine. Other research methods are used in different fields. Other research methods include polling and surveys, which Eagledad uses and you linked, analytics and statics, interviews, and good old fashion journal and book reading, to name a few off the top of my head. The need for a theory to do research versus need for research too provide needed answers is usually based upon the environment you are in. In academia, theories are needed and proved or disproved, with your research supporting it. Best personal example is when a prof stated that the Balkan Crisis of the 1990s had no relation to what Nazi Germany did in the 1930s and 40s. When I disagreed with him and gave him a few examples, he said, 'Very well. Why don't you make that your paper." And thus my theory, How Serbian leaders used Nazi techniques, including science and medicine, in the Balkan Crisis was born. I used books, articles, and and interview to support that thesis. In the ''real world" as I call the non academic setting, the need for answers will cause research to be conducted. I cannot count the number of times physicians and nurses needed answers on best practices and evidence based medicine for new medical conditions they were encountering, and needed NOW over my 12 years as a medical librarian. Best personal example would the physician who needed information on counteracting a drug that a patient was having an allergic reaction to while in surgery. They didn't need a theory to prove or disprove, they needed an answer NOW.

I am just going to tell you about Traditional Scouting in my neck of the woods. IT WORKS! (emphasis). We have two "old school," or as some of my Scouts have said "sweaty," troops in my district. My troop has 11 active, is Scout led, and is a "hiking and camping" troop. Although we probably should add "Biking" to that list since we have 3 biking trips scheduled for the upcoming year since the Scouts want Cycling MB. They plan and organize everything, and adults are there for health, safety and guidance. It is messy, and mistakes are made by the Scouts. But they are learning experiences. We normally have an Annual Planning Conference, but with COVID, we did a 6 month plan instead. Part of me was upset because trips that had been scheduled, and the Scouts want to do had to be limited to anything within an hour. BUT, the Scouts took everything in stride, and I was really proud how they handled the situation. If the troop is weak in an area, it is recruiting. We rely to heavily on word of mouth since we do not have a feeder pack. In the last 2 years we had 3 transfer into the troop ( my two oldest and a friend), 2 Cross Over from Cub Scouts, and 3 with no prior Scouting experience.. We also lost 3 to aging out, 1 to behavioral issues, and 1 to a family crisis. And we will lose 2 next year due to ageing out. Yes we tend to retain them until they are 18, even after they earn Eagle. The other troop is more "old school" than us, or "super sweaty," as my Scouts call them. Pre-COVID they had 36 active, and many of their 18-20 year olds stayed around until they left for college, the military, or jobs as ASMs. They are now down to about 26 active. They are primarily a minority troop with inner city kids from the local housing authority in it. The CO views Scouting as a true outreach ministry, and heavily subsidizes the troop to the point they limited the number of Scouts in the troop. ( although the SM is good and increasing that number the past few years. It use to be 32 Scouts). They do not have a feeder pack, but they have an active recruiting program, when they have room. They also have an extremely active outdoor program. They do weekend damp outs at least once a month every month except February ( Scouting for Food project) and December ( they are Salvation Army Bell Ringers), and they will multiple camp outs in a month. They are also involved in ARC hurricane shelter operations. One year they spent more time running shelters than camping. They encourage the Scouts to truly live the Scout Oath and Law in their everyday lives, and because the majority of the Scouts are in they same neighborhood and schools, they tend to hang together all the time. Even the troops that are not as active like the two above have active traditional elements to keep interest. They may be more advancement oriented, or more adult led, or more outdoor club than a traditional Scout troop that is youth led. But they are still in the outdoors. The youth WANT the outdoor adventures. They want the challenges. And Traditional Scouting does prepare them for adulthood than anything else.

Folks, Would it be possible to take a pause for a little bit? I know this is a very challenging issue that is extremely multifaceted. I see all sides of the arguments. I know folks who were molested, I know someone falsely accused (criminal investigation conducted and evidence supported her story), and I had to keep Cubs occupied while police intervened (that was not a good night at camp). Let's remember the #1 goal of the lead lawyer as stated in the Diane Rheem interview linked in a previous post and in another interview I heard him in : the complete dissolution of the Boy Scouts of America and IF (emphasis in interview) an organization like the Boy Scouts is still needed, it start from scratch.

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! (emphasis) When you read the syllabus, they do the activity and get signed off, and there is a comment that goes something like "just like the Scout." They also want you give give out cut out badges as they do the skills. IMHO this only promotes the "one and done" attitude. When I teach IOLS, I tell them they WILL need to practice and practice. I say the course is not designed for them to teach outdoor skills, but rather to have the basics down so they are not a burden on the Scouts. Anyone remember the old Berenstain Bears book on the Bear Scouts, when Papa Bear takes over as SM with a know it all attitude, but no training? Let's face it who would you rather have teaching, the adult who went through a weekend training, or a 13 year old who has been through 2-3 years of camping?

I agree, wood tools needs more time in training AND information in the SHB. When I reviewed the last time I did IOLS, the section on wood tools in the BSHB was missing so much info compared to older BSHBs, that I handed out sections from my 1960s FB and some other sources. Mixed emotions on this one. While I agree the older Scouts should be able to teach the younger Scouts and new adults these skills, I've seen a few things that make me question the idea. First the idea of "One and Done" is so prevalent, I am seeing fewer and fewer Scouts that actually have the skills to do the teaching. Sad but true. Best example is the 17 year old Life Scout who could not do basic T-2-1 first aid skills because " i took it my first year at summer camp, I don't remember them." The second concern is adults intimidating Scouts. I have seen and heard about adults intimidate Scouts, sometimes to disastrous effects. I have seen adults trying to change OA elections get "upset" to the point that I had to intervene and defend the youth. And one of the reasons my sons and I left a troop was because 2 adults intimidated the Scouts to the point that the SPL walked away. What was supposed to be a good trip and recruiting opportunity was a total charley foxtrot. Not only did none of the Webelos who were suppose to camp with us join the troop, we left the troop because of the yahoos and their actions that weekend. I wish I was there with the troop to put a stop to them. I have had older Scouts staff my IOLS, just like they do WB now. It works.

So it is $10 to watch something online AND camp in the backyard. Do they ship the food to me, or do I need to get my own food? 3 hours for lunch? Must include nap time. 3hours 45 minutes for dinner and KP? I am really not impressed with this training. I think C-3P0 said it best:

Once the camel's nose comes into the tent....

If they make IOLS virtual.... Do you want to trust your Scouts camping with someone who has had only virtual outdoor training? On a positive side, for those folks with the outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities, this should make their life easier As for most of my folks, well the internet service is lousy, and I see live IOLS continuing for some time in my area