Eagle94-A1

Anyone at Raven Knob this week? Wondering who else is here.

My understanding was that each council was given a dollar amount based upon not only unrestricted AND limited restriction assets but also number of abuse cases against it. I do not know if SOL also plays a part of that. I say limited restrictions as well because I have been informed that 1 or 2 of the 4 council camps in my council will need to be sold. All have limited restrictions on them.

Once upon a time, BSA DID allow units to come up with and use BSA logos. Heck they sold CD-ROMs with BSA trademarked images so that units could create their own recruiting flyers, letterhead, patches, etc. I have two of those disks at home somewhere, and the images can be found on Macscouter.com. Heck the "newer" disk, the one I got from 1998, had the Venturing logo in maroon and gold in addition to the green and gold. But that changed somewhere in the mid to late 2000s. BSA's marketing department started cracking down on local printers and patch makers.

Caveat, I am a former professional. Regarding DEs, a GOOD DE (major emphasis) is worth their weight in platinum. They can provide a lot of assistance to their units. And I don't mean picking up and dropping off paperwork and supplies to and from council office. The problem is that most new DEs are just out of college with little to no experience in Scouting, let alone as a Scouter. If they have experience with Scouting, it is usually as a Cub Scout or Scout. When I went to PDL-1 back in the day, out of 72 new professionals (71 new DEs and Exploring Execs. 1 "retread" professional was Director of Development who had to redo professional training because it was over 5-10 years since he left the profession), less than 20 had any experience as an adult Scouter. Of the Group that did have experience, the bulk of them were either military retirees looking for a post-service career, or folks looking to start a new career. I want to say 3-5 of us had experience as adult Scouters during college, i.e. summer camp staff, attending a local college and remaining active in our units or OA, etc. So one of the reasons for the high turnover is the lack of preparedness for the new folks. They just are ready for all the demands of the job. Job descriptions and interviews do not adequately describe the full responsibilities. Another reason is pay. The pay is low for the skill set required for the job. Almost all of the DEs I knew who quit either went to the private sector and doubled their salaries ( in one case tripling the DE salary) or they went back to school. DEs are on call 24/7, and it does take it's toll. Especially if you are a newlywed like I was. But the biggest reason many DEs left when I was a DE was the hostile culture in the professional ranks and unreasonable demands and goals. While growth is important, the unreasonable demands to XYZ growth and focus on quantity over quality is why many new units fail within a few years, and why existing units tend to get neglected. And the threats and intimidation by the higher ranks to meet immediate goals, regardless of other issues that if fixed would increase retention long term, was extreme. I cannot tell you how stressful and exhausting it was to try and fix problems AND start new units the right way, while being under constant pressure and hostility from management to get membership and unit numbers up. Two of my coworkers had nervous breakdowns, and I was on my way to one. Thankfully, my wife saw what the job was doing to me, and gave me an ultimatum: her or the job. The irony was that supporting her was one of the reasons I stuck with the job as long as I did.

Be careful what you wish for. My council is down to 1 Professional and the office staff. 2 consultants, retired pros, are currently running things on a temporary basis until we hire a SE. I can tell you right now, it is a mess.

When we conducted our own summer camp last year, we did a block format for the entire troop. They did not like it, but understood why it was done, and the complaining was minimal. But there was some. Some things that helped was that A) we got some input from the Scouts. B) we adjusted the schedule as needed. While the adults did the bulk of the planning, i.e. the adults were rushing find a place, get MBCs out there, put together a plan etc, we did have a PLC meeting to go over everything that was being planned and see if they liked it, had alternatives, etc. Program was changed based upon their input (NO to Environmental Science, YES to Cycling MB). Overall they were glad to be camping and having fun. And yes we adjusted the schedule to suit their wants. and weather. The day the survival camping was planned was supposed to have thunderstorms, so we moved it up a day. The Bike ride took longer than anticipated, and wore them slam out. We let them have the afternoon off to recuperate. The only thing that we could not change was BORs. We had a hard and fast time for those because the committee was had a set time to visit us for them. Unless it is an absolute emergency, I would not do block scheduling.

You will not hear anything because they had to sign Non-Disclosure Agreements in order to be part of the deal. That question, and others related to the lawsuit were asked recently at a meeting. All they could say was property would need to be sold to pay the council's share. EDITED: Best information I have found on the topic is reviewing all the case docs that @CynicalScouter and others have been posting. I cannot speak for others, but for me it is the outrageous monthly fees on both sides that is upsetting. I would rather that money go to the victims directly. Again for me, the lawyers getting a large percentage ( I hope it's not the 40% someone posted, but even 35% which I am told is the average is too high IMHO) is also upsetting. I would rather 85-90% of the fund go the victims instead of 65-60% BUT I will give credit, where credit is due. The TCC lawyers did promised, give 10% of their earning back to the fund. Wish BSA's lawyers would do the same.

@yknot I AM SO SORRY ABOUT YOUR SITUATION! I have encountered parents and units like that. And making the change to a more youth-led and fun unit is extremely challenging when you do not have support. I am dealing with one grandmother right now who is just like that. She has custody of the grandson, and is forcing him to stay in Scouting and is pushing him very hard to be an Eagle. Nice kid, doesn't cause major problems thankfully, but it is very obvious he has no interest in Scouting. When it was time to turn in MB class schedules, he didn't have the paperwork, and had no idea what his grandmother signed him up for. He messaged her for the schedule, but between when he and I received it (she sent it to both of us and it was not the form we sent out so it made no sense anyway) We had him 1/2 way through picking the MBs he wanted to take. SHE WAS FURIOUS. Thankfully she got over it. This will be the first time she has not gone to a summer camp or winter camp to make sure he is taking the MBs she signed him up for. And here is the funny thing. Before he had no interest whatsoever in summer camp. Now that he made his own choices, his interest has perked up some. I am hoping the week away from grandmother and having fun will change his outlook. Forgot to add, in my experience, if you focus on fun and adventure, the Scouts stick around a lot longer. Advancement may be slower, but they tend to stick around even after making Eagle. Current troop has an 18 y.o. ASM and 17 Y.O. Eagle Scout who are having fun. Another troop had a group having so much fun, that they formed a Venture patrol and organized one final HA trip before they left for college. Two troops I was involved with had alumni stick around as ASMs and attend functions and camp when they could. And one troop formed a Venturing Crew so they could have some fun outside of the troop.

THIS.IS.THE.WAY!

I think the focus is on new Scouts, Scout Rank as well as Tenderfoot through First Class. Merit badges traditionally have been for higher ranks, although they can work on them at any time. Tenderfoot through First Class focuses on the outdoors. You are correct that some badges do not have organic opportunities. Sometimes the PLC does need to think outside the box. For example, hiking one of the Washington DC trails for Cit Nation. Service Projects can also be outdoors. Agree, but the key is WHO IS DOING THE PLANNING (emphasis)? If the Scouts are doing the planning, great. But if adults are imposing it, you will lose Scouts. I have seen that time and time again. One key thing that you touch on. Advancement IS individual. Again our job is to provide opportunities, and that does include helping Scouts find things outside of the normal troop program. If an individual Scout wants to create his own advancement opportunity, that is not only allowed but has been the way since 1910.

Same here. I know back in the day, when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program and Webelos Crossed over in May/June, the First Year Camper Program was a major help, not only with advancement, but also with getting new Scouts acclimated to Scouting. My buddies who went to summer camp their first year had a tremendous jumpstart on me who was unable to go. I think there is a place for the program, even with Webelos being an 18-24 month transition program. As I mentioned above, I have seen well prepared Cross Overs, underprepared Cross Overs, and unprepared Cross Overs. I use to think it was based upon packs, but really it is their Webelos Den Leader and also situation. One of the WDL who did an outstanding job preparing his first Webelos den for Scouts BSA admitted he did not do everything to prepare his second den for Scouts BSA because Covid seriously inhibited his plans. And the pack that has a history of unprepared Cross Overs actually had a good batch this last go around because they had an outstanding WDL. So I can see some New Scouts needing a First Year Camper Program to get the stuff they should have learned as Webelos.

I am old school, the PLC's planning should provide OPPORTUNITIES ( emphasis) for advancement, but focus on it. And "Advancement should come as naturally as a suntan, it just happens in the outdoors." as Lord Baden-Powell said. As for OPERATION FIRST CLASS, which is now FIRST CLASS, FIRST YEAR ( both sic), if you can find the research on why that came about in August 1989, you will find 2 things wrong with the methodology. First and foremost there is no information, studies, stats, etc on how ACTIVE (emphasis) units are and how the activity level of the troop affects retention. The second concern, which did not hit me until years later after talking to folks, was LDS influence. SInce the LDS Church modified the BSA program to suit their needs and they were the largest CO at the time of the 1980s study on retention. Let's face it when you keep the 11 year olds away from the rest of the troop, and have a Cub Scout program focused on getting First Class in a Year, it will affect the stats. Also Since all male LDS youth were registered, even if they were no longer active, that also affected retention numbers. Regarding this statement, The only time I have seen overprepared First Year Scouts bored is at the Summer Camp First Year Camp Program. In both cases, they were helping their patrols out with learning the material. If you focus on fun and adventure, they won't be bored. I have seen underprepared have challenges, but still have fun. What concerns me are the non-prepared Cross Overs. Over the years I have seen two groups of Cross Overs who were not prepared, essentially being given their AOL. They and their parents struggled with the differences between the 2 program. In one case we lost 33% of the Cross Overs before the end of their first year, and 66% before the end of their second year because they were not ready. In the other case, we lost 70% within in a year and 90% within 2 years.

@TGB 1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! 2. BSA has always allowed charter orgs to select their own leadership. While many, if not most, did not do anything but sign paperwork and provide meeting space, some have taken ownership. You will probably see a lot more COs take ownership due to the BSA's bankruptcy and lawsuit. COs may not be covered by the bankruptcy settlement, despite BSA's promises in the past. 3. I bet it felt like sucker punch to the gut getting told you are no longer allowed to be a volunteer. A troop I was in needed a new Scoutmaster (SM) because the current one had major health issues. The Charter Organization (CO) had a policy that the SM must be a member of the congregation. I was not of that faith, knew the policy, but told the SM I would be willing to take over if approved. He was all for it, but told me he did not think it would go past the Charter Org. Representative (COR). I had a meeting with the COR, and I was turned down. It hurt, despite knowing it was a long shot.I stuck around and continued as an ASM until other issues caused my family to leave. 4. Whatever you decide, good luck.

Possibly. They may need your help. When I returned to the Light, I stayed on as a UC, because we needed UCs.. When a DE was finally hired, within a month if his hiring, he called me for meeting. We had a very "interesting: chat for about 1-1.5 hours.

Welcome back to the light.

I agree wholeheartedly with @InquisitiveScouter's SLICC assessment. While I used Native American ceremonies and dance to help restart several chapters, it was not the primary focus. the chapter did community service. The chapter did fun activities. We worked hard, and played harder. But @Eagledadis also right. The pre-1990s election process with ratio charts showing how many eligible to how many on the ballot, did weed out a lot of Scouts who only thought of themselves. OA was truly the "special forces of Scouting." Somewhere along the way, it turned into numbers game. When the adults on the National OA Committee changed the election process, a lot of good Arrowmen were upset, because we recognized that it slowly destroy the OA because e folks no longer had to think about who was worthy. I didn't get in until my 3rd time eligible. Today it is unheard of someone not getting elected in my neck of the woods. Heck even folks who have said "I am not interested, take my name off the ballot, " have been elected. And look at the change in Brotherhood requirements. It use to be 10 months, which meant for most folks a year. Now they can get Brotherhood in 6 months. There are other changes in the OA I can rant on, but that needs to be a threading the members only area.

And at is what many COs, and probably a few councils too, believed when they paid the charter fee. That is what I was told as a DE, and what I told prospective COs. In fact it was a "selling" point. Heck I was told that as early as 1993.

And for me that is a VERY big OH MY! When I was a DE one of the selling points to COs was that the charter fee to the BSA covered insurance that would protect the CO from things like this. If memory serves, language in the Charter Agreement covered this. If National, and the LCs to a lesser extent, will not honor their word and their contract, maybe BSA needs to die. I was taught "A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal... Brave...."

I think there are a bunch of factors as to why many Scouters do not care about the new district in my neck of the woods. 1. We have had lousy to non-existent customer service from the council. We have not had our own DE in about 8 years now. And the last one we had was useless. He would not do anything to help get us back in the schools for recruiting, nor did he go after volunteers to serve on the district level. Worse still he and a few other pros actually ran off volunteers. And if help was needed, nowhere to be found. 2. Pros at the council have interfered with events, and ran off volunteers. We have had folks spend months planning events, and no sight of a professional at the planning meetings. Then with no advance notice, and ignoring what the volunteers who have planned and organized the event want, they add additional events and activities causing problems. I've mentioned my camporee that had a Cub Scout event added to it with a weeks notice over training chairwoman and my objections. We had folks plan a workday to prep a camp for camporee, and told in no uncertain terms that there will be no workday. We had events planned out, organized, and ready to go, only to have it announced at a meeting the event was cancelled, WITHOUT EVER NOTIFYING THE VOLUNTEER IN CHARGE OF THE EVENT PRIOR TO THE ANNOUCEMENT (emphasis). 3. Pro have ignored the input of Scouters, have been rude to the Scouters, and have yelled, screamed, & cursed out Scouters. So with all the garbage that has happened, why do I want to save the new district? A. We are dying. When I was a DE in 20+ years ago we had 10 active Packs, 10 active Troops, and 2 active Explorer Posts/Venturing Crews in what is the old district. Today we have 3 Packs, and 7 Troops in the old district's territory. By working together, we may be able to turn things around. B. There are opportunities for the youth that we need numbers for. By working together, we can provide them, C. IF things turn around at the council level, and I have a feeling we will be merging with other councils in the future, working together may show that the new district can support itself. I admit i am an optimist.

Just watched the new YPT3.0 training one of our soon to be new committee members did tonite. In the training it states #1 job is to remove the Scout from the situation and make sure they are safe #2 is call 911 or local law enforcement.

THIS is why hate having advancement as the focus of the program instead of FUN AND ADVENTURE!. And after my two older sons' experiences with First Year camper programs, I will not force a Scout to do it. Oldest was helping Scouts in his "patrol" out at FYC. Camp middle son went to divided their program into a Tenderfoot & Second Class session and a First Class session. He and his buddies were bored with the First Class session, but the new guys from the other pack were overwhelmed. Summer Camp, as it is currently done, needs to be individualized to the wants and needs of the Scout.

I am with @qwazse on this, they are just like any other new Scout, although they SHOULD (emphasis) be able to do it quickly as @BAJ has stated. However I know the Pandaemic has really screwed things up. We got two new Scouts from my old pack, and both had my middle son's WDL as their WDL. NEITHER ONE OF THEM WAS FULLY PREPARED DUE TO COVID! (again emphasis). The WDL even apologized to me about not having his guys fully prepared this time around, and said they did their best to meet the requirements for AOL and cross over on schedule. This is not a problem for my troop as we do not believe in the FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR horsehockey, but instead focus on being a hiking, camping. and now biking troop. We also beleive advancement is fully on the Scout and they should advance at their own pace. But it has been interesting with these 2. The Webelos Program is a big help for transitioning, and you really need the full 18-24 months to prepare them, and more importantly the parents/grandparents. In pre-Covid times I've heard of some units conducting a SM Conference just prior to or after the Cross Over so they can get their rank at the next meeting. Other units has them work on the Scout Rank at the first meeting. Again my troop is somewhat old school, when the Scouts wants to advance, he talks to the SPL or an adult to sign off. We are slowly, working on letting PLs being able to sign off on advancement (that's my goal.) So if takes them 6+ months, it takes them 6+ months.

Sadly NCAP doesn't allow that.

With all due respect, don't believe the work. 1) Greg Hallett really does not have any research credentials. 2. There are no references, citations or works cited in the chapter you cite. Where is he getting this information? IF as his bio states, he got these from interviews with KGB operatives, there would still be citations for these interviews, and even copies of the KGB records. After the fall of the Soviet Union, I have been told by well respected historians and researchers that for the right amount of cash you could get any KGB record you wanted. 3) FNZ Publishing appears to be a defunct, New Zealand self publishing company. Anyone willing to pay for the production costs can get their book printed. In fact one discredited historian self published his book that was proven to be a complete work of fiction with made up data. As a historian and librarian, I have serious questions about the work in question.

3 months later and wanted to give an update. I do not know how the council reorg is going in other areas, but in mine not so well. We have folks refusing to recognize the new district and want to keep doing things as if the old, local district was around. My old district had the best run district wide Cub Scout Pinewood Derby in the council, and we had support from a local community organization. Person running the event, who is both a Scouter and a member of the organization, said the PWD is only for the Cubs in this county. If Cubs from other counties want one, they can create their own. Another long time Scouter asked me about a letter he received about a meeting in a neighboring city is about. When I told him one of the council executive board members has stepped in to help organize the new district, he was adamant that the old district will continue officially or unofficially. As for district volunteer leadership, we only have 2 active now: the commissioner and me. Our district program guy quit in frustration. And I am concerned about the commissioner burning out. He is currently doing everything, and I do mean everything, to keep the new district going. As for me, I am focusing on one event, the district camporee. Between family, work, and unit responsibilities, I am slowly burning out myself. And within the next 6-18 months, I will become the SM of my sons' troop. I will not have the time to help on the district level. As for the DE, we have none. In fact, we have only 1 professional, a DE, in the entire council now. the other 2 DEs left in April, and our SE left May 31st. No idea when a SE will get hired, and of course no new DE's until after an SE is hired. We had a Zoom Round Table and attendance was poor. Topics were Cub Scout Day Camp and camporee. 2 packs were represented and 5 troops were represented. 2 of those troop had Scouts present, and only because I personally invited them. As for the lawsuit situation, we are hearing nothing. I do know that according to court documents, all 4 the camps have restrictions on them. I know one of them is in a trust, so the council doesn't truly own it. Heck they do not make any improvements top the camp. If a troop or volunteers want stuff, i.e. pavilion, water lines, etc, they have to pay for and/or do the improvements themselves. As for the local camp in the district, I know the council owns it from property records, but it is listed as restricted in the bankruptcy document. I hope and pray the trust included some legal right of return if the council no longer wants the property in the deed of sale. So now you all know why I say I am depressed with everything going on locally and nationally. On a positive note, Middle child is still slowly getting requirements for Eagle done, and youngest is slowly getting stuff signed off on First Class. The troop will shortly have a new committee members, and we had 2 Scouts from another unit visit us about a month ago. They are not happy with their current troop, and are looking around to transfer. I think we made a positive impression, but won't know for sure until after their current unit comes back from summer camp.