Eagle94-A1

I wish we could get back to patrol method summer camps. Sadly I do not see this happening as the current structure is too ingrained in parents, Scouts, and many, many Scouters. I have had parents tell me that if they are paying for camp they will be picking the classes that he can get the MB at camp, otherwise it is not worth it. I have Scouts who enjoyed their COVID-19 summer camp, which used the patrol method, tell me they do not want to do to again because of the limited MB we worked on. And I had a scout retake a MB because it was fun, and another Scouter told me he was wasting his time.

We have not had a dull time DE in my district prior to merger for at least 9 years, always having to share one with another district. Since the merger in 2021, we have had 2 DEs. One didn't even attend the district camporee. The other didn't attend the council camporee, although she was brand new and I will cut her some slack. We have hand delivered advancement paperwork only to be be told "It was never turned in" (despite having a photo taken of the paperwork in fact being turned in because of previous issues). We needed professional help trying to get into the schools for recruiting, to no avail. When asked to focus membership recruitment on struggling units instead of starting new units, was told point blank they would start new units where "needed." And prices to use facilities and attend events have skyrocketed with no announcement. In fact prices went up, but the prices listed on the website are the old ones.

Part of the reason BSA kept those files for so long is that folks in them could still be alive, and a danger to youth, decades after being put into them. The SM who abused my 2 friends is still alive. While a criminal background check would show his conviction for CSA (their mom did press charges), Others in the IVF were NOT convicted, and the IVF prevents them from re-enrolling. One victim posted their abusers case file on a previous thread. They were never charged with a crime, and only the IVF prevented them from rejoining. Grant you they attempted to rejoin within 2 years of being kicked out, but others may try years later.

Unless they go to that camp, and take all the equipment that has been donated to maintain it. Yes that happened. They even took some personal gear that volunteers left because they were doing multi-weekend projects. Agree. 33% of COUNCIL Fundraisers is the norm. Unit fundraisers are for the unit. What's a Unit Earning Application? :) Seriously, I have turned in some, and never got them back. Quit filling it out. Sometimes the volunteer IS following the directions of the professional. Some Pros are jerks.

December 2016 is when National watered down the 2015 Cub Scout program, changing requirements mid year. My pack decided to ignore the December 2016 Update and continue with what they planned, and then synced everything with National in June 2017. BUT books still had the 2015 requirements, and some of those books were still floating in stores as late as 2018/19. And it wasn't just Webelos, it was the entire Cub Scout program that was revamped. The reason for the watering down of the Cub Scout Program in December 2016 is due to complaints. People were so use to everythign being completed by February for Blue and Gold, and with the 2015 Program, that was not the case. It was designed to take 7 full months to advance each rank Tiger through Webelos, and 5 full months for AOL. Plus the advancement was a lot more challenging and planning intensive with the 2015 program. Those packs that went to roundtable had no problem with the changes inmy neck of the woods.

When Webelos went from a 9-12 month program to an 18-24 month program in the 1990s, the purpose was to move the Cross Overs from May/June time frame to February/March time frame in order to get the new Scouts, and adults, acclimated with Scouts BSA. I know that when I crossed over in May under the older program, I had less than 3 weeks to come up with the money to go to camp, and attend. My family could not afford it at the 'last minute," and I did not go with my troop the first summer I was in Scouts. I missed out on a lot by not going. That is what we essentially did with youngest. He and one other finished AOL right before Christmas. They started going to Troop meetings in January, but the formal Cross Over was in February. Normally the pack did cross over in December/January, but because for several reasons it was delayed until February so everyone could cross over at once. I think it depends upon the pack and it's program. I know my pack followed the traditional Webelos Program, i.e. preparing them for Scouts by using the patrol method and start the transitioning as soon as they become 4th graders, i.e. the summer between 3rd and 4th grade. Those guys were chomping at the bit to become Scouts in December/January. Other packs waited to transition until 5th grade, if then (more on that in a minute). Those folks were not prepared for Scouts BSA, and the quit within weeks. Sadly I have reviewed some of the new July 2015 Cub Scout Program Webelos literature, and there are MAJOR issues with it. The advancement section, which used to talk about the differences between the Wolf and Bear Program, and the Webelos Program, are not mentioned. In fact the advancement section is cut an pasted from the Wolf and Bear DL books.

I had one of those, but in reverse. SM wanted a name removed after he approved the Scout for election, and he got in. He was pressuring the election team, and when I intervened tried pressuring me. When I refused to cave, he started yelling at me. That is when I decided to leave , and he followed me into the parking lot and cursed me out. AND NOW I REMEMBER, he was the one who the following year told his troop h ow to vote so everyone could get in ( this was when there were election limits). Glad yours went well. That happened in my troop in the 1980s, back when there were election limits, and it did not end well at all. The Den Chief of that group was the only one who had enough ballots to get elected. Irony is he told all the old Scouts he was not interested in OA and not to vote for him. No one realized until the election team stated that the new Scouts could vote, even if this as their first meeting. Regarding why the OA is what it is today, I blame it on a variety of factors. Biggest thing was back in the day, it was truly an honor society. There were election limits or ratios that only allowed so many folks to get elected. So the best of the best would get in, and it may take 2, 3 or even 4 election cycles before getting in. When they got rid of the election ratios, allowing everyone to get in, a lot of folks predicted the decline of the OA. Another factor is the rise of 'One and Done" that is the current standard of advancement. Once upon a time, Scouts had to "Master the skills" to advance. Then the "Badge represents what the Scout can do, not what he was done." Today it is "...more about the learning experience than it is about the specific skills learned." A third factor in some places is summer camp. Some camps have weak staff, lousy program, and major challenges. Back in the day, your best and brightest, usually your OA members, were your summer camp staffers, and you gave back to camp. I am a Vigil, I have fought the decline of the OA tooth and nail the best I could for as long as I could. But Scouting overall is in decline, especially in my neck of the woods. I need to pick my battles and focusing on my sons, and my troop, is priority #1.

One of the biggest issues I just recently found out is that since at least 2015, the Webelos Den Leader Book, or whatever it is called, has sections cut and pasted from the Cub Scout Leader Section, specifically how advancement is suppose to work. NONE of the information that was in older Webelos leader literature and training is in it. So instead of telling Wbeelos den leaders they and "activity badge counselor" sign off instead of parents, parents till sign off as it is done. And another issue I have is training. I admit I hate online training. BUT one of the complaints I am hearing about the online training is that 75%+ of the different den leader trainings is identical, so it is BORING (emphasis)! I know people will have other windows open and multitask. BSA may have "experts," but they may not have Scouting experts. Best example is Training. Do not know if they are still in charge, but the national director of training had a PhD in childhood education, but NO EXPERIENCE in the Scouting program, whether as a Scout or an Adult. And while William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt did not have a PhD in Childhood education as his doctorate was in pharmacology (DPharm), he not only had a ton of Scouting expereince from his youth and as a Scouter, but also he experimented with his ideas with an actual troop to test them out before publishing. From personal experience with National Supply, I had an expert sales consultant, who had never worked at a Scout summer camp before, try to tell me how the summer camp trading post should operate. I had 4 years of summer camp experience, working in various areas including helping in the trading post. This person was telling me the layout, inventory to have, hours of operation. NONE OF THEIR IDEAS WOULD HAVE WORKED! (major emphasis). I was able to compromise on some things, and other things I had to do. End of that summer, I was able to prove using various reports that everything the "expert" wanted done did not work. From the number of special food deliveries we needed because we ran out snack items, to going over budget on shipping costs because we did not have enough items in stock, to the times sales occurred ( expert wanted us closed during the day, and open during camp wide activities), Everything they wanted was wrong.

When i ran CS day camp, irregardless of who owned the property, NCAP applied.

I was one of those 18- 30 year olds. I served in a variety positions, including professional, in that age range: ASM, OA lodge officer, OA chapter advisor, AIA advisor, UC, and council training staff. Because of my age, I got along with the youth very well, and still keep in contact with a bunch of them years later. As for being asked, I think it varies. Some other Scouters had no issues asking me to help out. Others ignored me, told me I had not idea what I was doing or talking about, etc. It was frustrating at times.

Thanks for the letter. That does not answer everything I wanted, but is a start.

Yes and no for the first part. There are some "old fogeys" who for whatever reason can still connect. Younger Scouters have a lot to offer and I encourage them. Sadly the 18-20 YO crowd in my neck of the woods feel completely disrespected by not being counted as 2 deep for YP purposes within Scouting, BUT also have to follow YP rules outside of Scouting per National. KNow several outstanding young men who are no longer involved because the 2018 rule would interfere with school, work, and friendships As for some countries having a max age for direct contact roles, I was told Belgium had one, and a few others, back in 1995. One Belgium SM I talked to was in his mid to late 20s.

I have not seen it yet, but did see the list of folks who are in it and contributed, and know our former national Youth Protection Director, Michael Johnson, is involved. I have two questions regarding him and his info. 1. What raw data is he using when he state, “The truth is clear: no child is safe in Scouts BSA programs.” I want to see stats, trends, reports, etc to prove this is the case. And I want the raw data because as Mark Twain once said, " There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and then there is statistics." 2. If his statement is true, then what the heck was he doing for 10 years? I ask this not to be a smart aleck, but to get some understanding. He was the one responsible for Youth Protection, and if he failed in his job, I want to know why.

Don't get me started on being held hostage by a Trailer Hauler. You can read all about it in another thread🤬

Although we have several trucks with towing capability, the trailer we have is so heavy, only 1 can pull it. It is a custom built one and one that survived a crash down a mountainside. (don't ask before my time, but our CC is proud of the indestructability of the trailer). Our driver is not going camping this weekend, and we are simulating a backpacking trip as we don't have a lot of vehicles going. As for backpacking meals, we have gone old school and are making our own. Still pricier than normal, but cheaper than the premade stuff.

Don't remind me. I know of a council that is doing a dodgeball tournament as a fundraiser. I almost asked if they knew Dodgeball has been banned by the BSA since 2018, but decided to stay out of it. However some volunteers are questioning why the council can have a Dodgeball tourney, but the units cannot.

Maybe because I am not a businessman, but I always thought it is better to buy than rent. Especially since the warehouse SHOULD be paid for. When I forked for Supply in the 90s, the warehouse had been there a while.

@InquisitiveScouter, Pretty much. At the town hall meeting I went to, I made comments and folks in the know, or should have been in the know, were either shocked or shocked and angered that I knew as much as I did on the trial. When discussing matters from the trial, specifically the Churchill Plan and their plan to limit the number of councils, get rid of "excess" camps, and cap the upper age limit to 18 for all programs with a council level volunteer, I was told I was spreading rumors.

If this is the wrong spot for the question, Mods please feel free to move it to the right one. When will the transcript of the session that the CHURCHILL PLAN was discussed and how do I go about getting a copy of the transcript? No one in my council is mentioning anything about it, and when I do ask questions about it, I am told I am "spreading rumors," and "no one knows what is actually going to happen." Considering the leash that national does have over councils, national gets its way.

Why I use folks who need ITOLS to be "trained," but already know the material as staff. I know someone who was super active in Scouting to the point his wife acknowledged she was a 'Scouting Widow" on weekends. Since he grew up in the program, he never needed basic camping skills and for his first 40 years as a Scouter, training was not a big deal, and he never went through it. Sadly he missed the test out option when it was available. But in all honesty we probably could not schedule a time to do the test out since he was always Scouting.

For a VERY brief period, I want to say it was 2014-16, a test out option was allowed by national. One of my friends was district training chair, and his eventual successor was one of those who did it. One of the reasons why I used staff that needed ITOLS, but I personally knew had the knowledge, skills, and abilities already and could teach the course. Plus ever since the training records S.N.A.F.U. in 2007/08 I was told to ALWAYS list instructors as students as well.

Last time I taught ITOLS, I had 3 adult staffers who needed ITOLS to be "Trained." First individual needing "training" was an Eagle Scout who worked summer camp as a youth, including First Year CamperProgram, combat medic in Iraq, and went to Philmont once. Next up was another Eagle Scout summer camp staffer who went to Philmont twice. Last but not least, the third adult staffer was another Eagle Scout summer camp staffer who went to ' 89 NSJ, was combat vet, AND was a WB 3 beader. I go them to teach in their specialty skills. Thankfully the Scouters appreciated the course and had fun, even the two who I would have put on staff if I had known them in advance. Have you seen the ITOLS Syllabus? The one I was was absolutely horrible with a lot of information from older courses and books completely missing. I had to supplement info with photocopies from my old fieldbook and other BSA publications. And the current course is worse. They took out the section on first aid. BUT the part that really TICKS me off is the "one and done" mentality it promotes. As the adults do certain skills, you are suppose to give them 'rank" cut outs.

Just realized who the source for the price increases was on FB. Hesbach is a SE, so i wouls say it is reliable.

Still have issues with both today, even with technology. Back then I remember having to tell the Philmont Training Center Faculty member in my district that according to the council's records, he was untrained. That was not a fun experience. 18 years ago when National told councils to clean up their training records, it was a nightmare. In my council, anyone who had training done over a year prior was "untrained." One of the issues was that BSA decided only to list only the most current Training courses titles. None of the older course titles were listed.And some of our Scouters took training in the 1960s. To deal with the situation, The council pro's told us to use the dates for the original training, but put in the title and codes for the current training. That worked for about 2-3 years. Then National realized they screwed up by not including the older training, any added the older courses, as well as time lines for the courses. That deleted all the work that was done with the older courses as they were beyond the date ranges of the current courses. Thankfully I kept paper and digital copies of all my work, and just had to resubmit. However the council and some training chairs did not keep those records, and they had to redo all the work again.

I lost a bunch of my Scouting memorabilia that I had at my mom's house when it flooded during Katrina. Ebay has been my friend. I was able to get some of the more meaningful stuff back.