Eagle94-A1

A few responses, and hopefully commentary about council tonite. @nolesrule, "Instapalms" are an example of national not listening. remember 94% of those polled were either against (18%) or strongly against (76%) them, yet they still happened. and I know they are here to stay. As for OA issues, while some of the mandates have come from adults, the overall descent of the OA appears to be nationwide. @InquisitiveScouter I kid you not about the MBs! I may be off on the number (old age is getting to me), but this was in one webinar/national online event. @nolesrule, I know there were issues back in the day. Heck look at the 1970s fiasco that Green Bar Bill had to come out of retirement to save BSA. But the overall standard for advancement went from "Master the Skills" and "The badge Represents what the Scout can do, (sic) not what he has done." to "The badge signifies a young person has provided service to others, practiced personal responsibility, and set the examples critical to the development of leadership.." @skeptic agree 100% However too many folks focus on the advancement, more on that in a bit. Districts/council not supporting program is my biggest complaint by the council now. Again Hopefully on that tonite after work. Regarding burnout, i think it is real because they way the Cub Scout program is designed, they basically repeat the same activity with a few changes every year. Sadly we now have adults who grew up in the 1970s Improved Scouting Program fiasco as Scouters. That was the time period camping was optional, and some do not understand why camping is so impriotant. Do not even get me started on this topic. I was a pro, and one of the reasons I left was program corruption due to mandatory membership goals. Greater Alabama Council in late 1990s/early 2000s anyone? @MattR, trust me I am trying. But when you have dedicated your live to the movement, serving at the unit, district, council, and national levels, it is extremely hard. Congrats on the granddaughter. I am focused on my troop, and helping them create their program. But I can tell you having an active, outdoor program with the responsibility for advancement on the Scouts is not popular with a lot of parents. I lost 3 Scouts this year because they were not advancing fast enough. We focus on Scouts having fun, and when working on advancement, actually learning the material and doing the work. Funny thing one parent that visited us recently and told us how our troop is more active and scouts are better prepared, but the wife wants his son in the new troop because he is now advancing. Agree 110%. But as stated above, more and more parents want "high speed, low drag" advancement instead of the Scouts having fun and learning "...as naturally as a suntan...."

So as some may tell, I have been a "Negative Nellie" of late. Between the constant changes at national, and the lack of involvement in my council I have had it. And waht is really sad is that I was probably the biggest cheerleader for the council as little as 7 year ago, having drunk the Flavor aid. But National has not listed to it's volunteers. The Instapalms are one I harp on a lot. But look at the Lion Program. Many thought the 4.5 year Tiger through AOL progression was too long. They went ahead and added a Lions anyway. The pilot den in my area started with 10 Lions. They now have 4 And of the 4, 3 MAY (emphasis) Cross Over, and 1 is burnt out and quitting. The June 2015 Cub Scout Program was supposed to put OUTING back in Cub ScOUTING. It was supposed to better prepare folks to Scouting. Not only did they change the program in December 2016, the WDL literature has removed content in older training. Only those dens who either had trained WDLs under the older, in person courses, or were mentored by such folks, had Scouts ready for Cross Over. The OA has tons of challenges that I won't get into here. IMHO it is no longer the Honor Society it was intended to be. In fact it appears to be a check mark on the way to Eagle. Advancement is so focused by National, that quality of instruction has dropped. National actually praised a council giving over 10,000 in their online MBUs. How can anyone learn in an online class of a 100? Heck I had scouts tuning out when my Troop was doing that for meetings. One recent Eagle said that "Advancement seems to discourage Scouting. I just had fun, and said 'why not' and finished [Eagle]." Then there is my local council. More on that later.

True, but if those who took an Obligation are not willing to follow it, and fix the things that are broken, but instead are making the problems worse, is the organization worth saving? There comes a time when one is completely exhausted and overwhelmed by the problems that fixing them is not worth it.

Maybe this is another reason for the OA to die? Why bother having rules if they are ignored.

According to the Guide to Unit Elections, once the SM approves the eligibility of the, and the vote is take, the SM CANNOT (emphasis) change the election results. Page 17 specificily states So f it is not global, then those chapters or lodges are in violation of OA policies.

My DE is apparently recruiting in one area. Instead of starting girls' troop, he trying to send them to an existing girls' troop 45+ minutes away. They do not want to spend the time following the 12 Steps to Starting a New Unit. Instead they are focused on "In School Scouting" units.

Actually there is only one way, before. Once the SM approves the slate of candidates, it is a done deal. I had a SM try to intimidate an election team into changing the results after he approved the candidate. He then tried to intimidate me, cursing and yelling at me as the team and I left his meeting.

A few things. A. Queens Scout, now King's Scout, remained the top award and is given to Venturers/Explorers in the UK. B According to the Churchill Plan all programs max age as a youth is 18. While there was major protest and one of the EXTREMELY few times BSA has listened to volunteers and they did not put it into effect in 2020, they did state that the age mandate can be reviewed in the future.

The BSA will still be in existence in 10 years? Seriously, I also do not think BSA's professional leadership know what to do. As to Volunteers, how often does national ever listen to us? I can count on 1 hand the number of times in the past 30+ years they listened to us. Heck they ignored 94% of the volunteers polled on "Instapalms."

Pretty much the same in my neck of the woods. No support for recruiting, no marketing etc. Worse, district level events have no professional support except ordering patches. And even then, they will short you on the patches trying to save a buck. Only 1 unit had any contact with our last DE, and that was for an FOS presentation.

Know quite well the SE is supreme chief of the fire and can do whatever they want. But you think the SE would ask why there is $90,000+ in the OA account before making it an "FOS donation," ( or maybe it went to endowment, but nethertheless over $90K was moved out of the OA fund) And then when the LA and others question the move, they are removed from office. And when the LEC says that a "tradition" is not something they are interested in because it seems dated, the SE may want to listen and not say " We did it when I was growing up, we're going to do it here." And when 90+% of the voting lodge members do not want to change a by-law that is in compliance with national policy, you do not compel the LA to the change is going to happen no matter what the lodge thinks (he learned from the mistake above: have the volunteer be the scapegoat. SE was the one who brought it up and forced the vote)

And the SE can do whatever they want. Overrule the elected lodge officers, overrule the lodge membership voting results, move designated funds from whatever the lodge and/or chapter designated them for to the general operating fund, remove advisers who question them, etc. I would say MUCH worse.

I do not know about other councils, but in my council the perceived attitude is you are on your own. Not only is there no support helping existing units that are struggling, but there is no support for creating a needed second girls' troop in my district. There is a lot of interest for a girls troop in one section of my district, but instead of the pros helping start the unit, instead they send them to a units 45+ minutes away one way. It doesn't work like that.

Maybe it is time for the OA to die. First and foremost, it is no longer truly an honor organization. Prior to the 1995 when I became a chapter advisor, the election process limited the number of elected, i.e if you had 2 Scouts eligible, you could only vote for 1 Scout, 3-4 eligible = 2 names allowed, 5-6 eligible = 3 names on the ballot, etc. When the change was made, many of us thought it would degrade the significance of the OA over time. And IMHO it has. Since that time the quality of Arrowman had dropped. I have seen all eligible members of a troop get elected, about 8 of them. I have seen an entire group of candidates stop working, saying "no more," and still go through the Ordeal Ceremony. I have seen a candidate refuse to stop talking go through the Ordeal Ceremony. we actually had him in a work of party of 2: the adult candidate and an adult elangomat. I have seen Brotherhood eligibility drop from 10 months to 6. And I Now see that a candidate is eligible to complete the Ordeal up to 18 months after their election. As for the regalia issue, For every Native against the OA, I can give you Native pro OA. I mentioned the elder who started dancing due to the OA n a previous post. One of the guys I did ceremonies with was not only Native, but the nephew of a tribal councilman. Regalia, when done right, was impressive and inspiring, The ceremony I recently saw sucked. No other way to put it. Not only were they in incomplete Scout uniforms lacking the medallions ( regret ever mentioning that idea now), they could not even memorize the script. Instead they red off sheets, easily visible. There was no inspiration or memorability.

Agree with the importance of camps. One of the reasons we had a decent OA chapter was because of the local camp. Between the OA and local units, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars have been invested into the camp. Now that we lost it, no one cares. Going to find out if the chapter advisor was able to divert money from that camp's OA maintenance fund to the campership fund. I doubt it though. I can tell you that mandating the AOL Ceremony and Cross Over Commercial Ceremony helped kill off chapters in my area.

Regarding Natives being offended. Yes, some are. AND some aren't. One of the best powwows I attended had an elder talking about dance to people and showing his regalia over the years. He had 50+ years of regalia, with one item looking vaguely familiar an Ordeal sash: He started dancing as an Arrowman. We had a wonderful conversation about Scouting, and the OA over the years. Best part was for me when he showed up to Grand Entry with his Old Style regalia and is Ordeal sash, and singled me out to show how proud he was of being an Arrowman. Yes, he wore that outfit and sash the entire session.

Respectfully, and vehemently, disagree. While the program SHOULD BELONG (major emphasis) to the young adults who are involved, it doesn't. While chapter and lodge youth leaders have an impact, sadly I have seen some chapter and lodge advisors take over and rule with an iron fist. Worst example was when the Scout exec and lodge advisor wanted to amend the of the lodge's by-laws, which required a majority vote of lodge members to amend. When the overwhelming majority voted against his proposal, the LA point blank stated to all present and voting that "I don't care what you think, this amendment will go into effect." sparking protest and outrage. As for professionals, I have seen a SE take OA money designated by the Lodge Executive Committee to improve camp for conclave being turned into the lodge's FOS contribution because the money was sitting there. I do not know what happens at the section and regional levels, but look at the current National OA Committee at the link posted above. Of the 36 members, only 4 are youth members of the OA. As I stated previously, that is better than the 3 youth members on a 60+ national OA committee. That committee made the decision to mandate the cheesy ceremonies for AOL and Cross Over that sparked outrage in my neck of the woods. We had one of the 3 members attend a lodge function since he is from our section. He was constantly being asked why the decision was made, and he refused to discuss to answer the question. So no, the OA does not belong to the youth.

This is a problem that has been bugging me since before COVID. WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE WEBELOS PROGRAM AND WDL TRAINING? ( caps for emphasis and extreme frustration) Webelos is supposed to be the transition period from Cubs to Scouts, not once they get into the troop. BSA in the 1990s realized the 9 to 12 month Webelos program from the 1980s and earlier didn't work, and created am 18 to 24 month program. When I did the old Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, which was a day long class to train for ALL (emphasis) pack positions, it reiterated the fact that Webelos is different than the other Cub Scout programs, parents are suppose to start letting go and allowing the Webelos to do more. Training had language to that end. Even with the old Cub Leader Specific Training, the WDL training had specific language to mark the differences. When New Scouts had issues with transition, it was usually a result of WDLs not doing the WDL Specific Training. Lately I see almost NONE of the Webelos being ready for Scouts BSA, unless they have an old School WDL who went thru the older training. I've talked to, and had disccussons with folks on the topic, sometimes heatedly, because most of the stuff I was taught appears to no longer be part of WDL training. When I reviewed the syllabus, whole sections that should have been different, appeared to be cut and pasted from Wolf and Bear training materials to the point that the word "Webelos" was not mentioned in some sections. I know COVID screwed things up. This problem has been ongoing. Locally I knew what packs emphasized training, and which didn't. And I am seeing even the pro training packs not preparing their Webelos like they used to. We had Webelos visit this past week, and from what my Scouts are telling me, we may get 1 out of the group because the others appeared to have no idea what Scouting is about, or are interested in Scouting.

I jest because Corps of Discovery was the Venturing Honor Society volunteers created because they could not join the OA. Order of the Golden Dragon was the Sea Scout equivalent.

How about Corps of Discovery? 🤣

On a positive note, I see that 4 youth members are on the committee of 36 members. That is a big improvement from a few years back when it was 3 youth members on the committee of 60+ members. However it is still too many adults, even if I personally know some of them, and in one case worked with one of them back in the day. I know decisions that National has made have ticked off the youth as well as long tenured Scouters. I have seen an entire lodge protest some of those decisions in the past. As for OA being the "All Stars" sadly that is no longer the case, and has not been in quite some time. When OA changed election procedures back in the mid 1990s, a lot of old timers predicted what we are seeing now. "Sash and Dash" is rampant, and the OA has lost so much prestige as a result. NONE of my currently eligible Scouts are interested. And the only reason why the last 2 OA members from my troop did it was because Dad was OA back in the day. Between the loss of camps, no inspirational ceremonies, and everyone who wants to be in can be voted in, OA is a pale shadow of itself. As for ceremonies, while they should not be the focus of the OA, they were what inspired members. Between essentially doing away with AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies, to the gradual removal of regalia, we are losing our heart as an Order. I too have kept the Vigil.

Dues covered registration, awards, and other supplies. Pack was old school in that Cross Over was not in conjunction with Blue and Gold. So those who had the Cross Over Ceremony in December or January actually registered with the troops they were joining, not the pack. Ceremony was just that, ceremonial. When youngest Crossed Over, some Cubs were behind for a Dec/Jan. Cross Over due to baseball. Plus Cub Scout Day Camp, which helped a lot with advancement, was cancelled by council that year because they did not want to send anyone to NCS (we later learned the council was in the red, but that is a different story). A few folks went to an out of council CSDC, which was a heck of a lot better than our district's, including the ones I ran. (a lot more support from the council). So the decision was to push Cross Over to BnG that year. My youngest stopped going to den meetings, and instead went to troop meetings as a guest starting in December because he was A. finished everything and B. chomping at the bit to be a Scout with his brothers. The $60 fee ( $72 with BOYS' LIFE) covered registration, AOL awards and plaque. That was before the major jump in price though

STICK. TO. YOUR. BUDGET! (yes that is me yelling, not at you but the situation). You had a budget meeting, it was open and they didn't show up. If needed produce the emails with the proposed budget, invitation to attedn the meeting, and the minutes from the meeting with approval from those there. $45 per plaque is expensive IMHO. IDEAS FOR THE FUTURE (caps to note edit) Now, some options I have seen. One pack I was with had a guy with a woodshop, and he made AOL shaped plaques. Arrows were purchased and made by the OA chapter. Only thing they paid for was the arrows, as that was an OA fundraiser they knew in advance and budgeted for. I think it was $10/arrow and painted to show achievements. Another pack used Hobby Lobby stuff, https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafting/Unfinished-Wood/Arrow-Wood-Shape/p/80826805 or https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafting/Unfinished-Wood/Rustic-Wood-Arrow-With-Jute/p/80772806 , added hooks for a decorated arrow that I made. I think it was about $50 for everything which included arrowheads (buy more than you need to get a good selection) As for the $45 plaque, My youngest has one of those. It's nice, but wasn't necessary. Because the pack pushed Cross Over to February instead of late December, first week back of January, we got charged the full dues for the year, with the understanding that the dues paid for the plaque.

I am so sorry. If the situation is anything like mine, I know all the emotions you are going through, and what you are feeling.

Didn't the BSA try that once in the 1970s, and the GSUSA opposed it?