Eagle94-A1

Sorry for the delay in response, Just got back. Yes , patches were budgeted and considered part of the fee. However Council has a habit of not ordering things, or ignoring quantities requested. And we do tend to order extra event patches because we A) use them as thank you gifts for sponsors and non-Scouting event staff, B) just in case we have more folks attend than planned, and C) the local OA chapter buys the excess at cost, and sells them to raise funds for camp and camperships. Best example is when I ordered a ton of supplies via my DE, when I had one. Long story short, only thing the DE ordered was 1/2 the number of patches requested, Only Scouts who paid on time, and 5 non-Scouting adults who sponsored and/or worked. Late payment folks (which would have been covered if the request was filled fully), and no Scouters got patches. As for supplies, I ran around with my head chopped off getting supplies the days before and of the event, and paying significantly more in the process. On a different note, supposedly our SE and newest DE made a brief appearance at camp. No idea what the new DE looks like. As for the SE, if I saw him, I did not recognize him. And this weekend's event was a council level family camp out, yet we had no professional support. Last weekend, there was another district's event, yet council declared it an all hands event. So no pros were at our event, including our own DE.

I really think my council is in serious financial trouble. Why you ask? Because after this weekend, no events will have patches. As for the event this weekend, they are only handing out 1/3 of the patch. Long story short, The patch for the last week and this week's events had 2 segments that were identical, with the 2 additional segments for last week's event and this week's event. Council did not order enough of the 2 primary segments, and may not have enough of the segment for this weekend. And this is not the first time the council has done this. One year they had so many attend, and want their patches, the council had to place a second order, which cost them more money than if they ordered the requested amount. But this year they are adamant on no more patches. If you cannot afford patches, even when budgeted, I think the council is in serious financial trouble.

Sadly this is 110% correct. And I would go on to add some ADULT SCOUTERS (emphasis) believe MBs should be handed out like Halloween candy at summer camp. I remember fielding a lot of complaints one year when NO ONE passed my Lifesaving MB class because A) the class was to large (25+ Scouts), B) The disruptive Scouts I had could not be kicked out of the class per the Program Director, and C) because of said size and disruptions, not all of the skills were taught and reviewed. I think many a SM just handed that MB to their scouts, despite them not earning it. page 52 of the Guide to Advancement states: "[BOR's] purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. (emphasis added)" Later on Page 52 it states that it is possible to fail a BOR. While a BOR must be granted whenever the Scout requests it, "In a case where there is concern that the requirements for a rank as written have not been fulfilled, it is appropriate to advise the Scout that he or she might not pass the board and to make suggestions about what might be done to improve the chances for success." Page 54 states 'If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what can be done to improve. If it is thought that a Scout, before his or her 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If the candidate does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures." If a Scout is not responsive to questions, how can the BOR confirm the requirements were actually fulfilled, per the GTA cited above? In over 35 years of sitting on BORs, only once was a Scout not able to answer fully the questions asked by the BOR. Even then, that one Eagle apologized profusely for not being able to recall things and mentioned how he suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) in a car accident that has affected his memory. Knowing the story of the accident, he was nicknamed the "Miracle Eagle," because his injuries were so bad, he should have died in the accident. he had 2+ years of hospitalization, physical and occupational rehab, and ongoing neuro care due to the TBI.

When I was a DE, we had to go to every district event for that very reason. Heck I remember flying in from Dallas after two weeks of training, washing clothes while packing a backpack, and going to camp to help teach the district ITOLS class the very day I got home. Another DE, on medically endorsed light duties after a surgery, had to commute back and forth from his house to a camporee, about 1:15 drive one way. That IS the way it is. It is always the volunteers fault, XYZ happened. Everyone has examples of that one. AND in the rare cases that volunteers are not involved, it is always the DE's fault, never the council's upper management. I saw a professional lose their job over a fundraising dinner that the upper management organized and NEVER told him that he was responsible for until 2 months before the event. No advertising was done prior to him taking over, and the keynote speaker passed away between when it was first planned, and when the pro was given responsibility for it. YET the SE did not tell him about the death, and all the advertisements had the deceased's name as the keynote. It was a disaster, and he lost his job over it. In my neck of the woods, most gifts in kind were towards the local camp, which is now being sold. Equipment that was donated for the express purpose of helping maintain that camp was taken to the main camp, despite the camp being open for over a year after the equipment was removed. No one was told about this, and it was discovered when folks when to clean up the camp for an event, and the equipment they relied on was gone. They even took some personal equipment that folks left at the camp so they didn't have to bring it back and forth. They got their stuff back only when they threatened to file a police report. As for donations of any kind, I do not know anyone at the unit level who is contributing to FOS. Many units no longer buy supplies from the local council, instead going to two nearby, and closer, out of council stores. Understatement. I know two large contributors who have stopped supporting Scouting altogether, and I would not doubt changed their wills. Another donor is only making contributions to a specific event. His goal is to cut registration so that as many Scouts can go to it as possible.

We were told effective 2023 that will be the new norm.

@jcousino, Lots of forms has the SE's signature on it. BSA Lifeguard is one example of a form that they sign off on.

NCAC approval was done by volunteer who is certified. Never seen pros certify events except summer camp when regional inspectors are invovled and no local ones.

From the Guide to Advancement page 52: 8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank (except Scout rank), he or she appears before a board of review. A board of review must be a personal and individual experience. Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added) If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. Because the board of review date becomes the effective advancement date, boards should be scheduled promptly as Scouts are ready or set up on a regular basis that assures Scouts are not delayed in beginning time oriented requirements for the next rank. Note that Scouts must be registered through the time they are working on advancement requirements, but need not be registered thereafter or when their boards of review are conducted.

Well my council is at it again. I really wish professional training had courses on gaining trust, working with ticked off volunteers, etc. We had a district event this weekend. No DEs were there as they were sent to another district's event instead. Not a good move to build bridges, especially since they are selling the local camp, which has ticked off folks. And to make matter worse, found out supplies that were requested were never ordered. So the event chair was running around Thursday and Friday, paying out of pocket for items. Happened to me once back in the day. And the pros do not understand why no one likes the council.

Update Talked on the phone with CC and had a discussion with the previous SM who is on the committee. Developed a plan and we began implementation at meeting. Had a Thorns and Roses session about the troop. Everyone loves the activities we do: Whitewater rafting, backpacking, biking, etc. The meetings are what everyone is frustrated with as they are unorganized, or planned poorly. Poor communication within the ranks, and lots of arguing because no one pays attentions and or agrees. Part of that is we are the size a normal patrol, but folks want to have two 3 man patrols, ASPL and SPL. They will be merging this weekend. What got interesting was the interactions of the Scouts. Some were into improving the troop, including one that planned to look at other troops this weekend. He had some good ideas, and volunteered to help make some of the changes. BUT the SPL, who has made several comments about leaving, was not really involved. He would start to say something, stop, and look withdrawn. When trying to pull it out of him, he just would not comment. As for getting more Scouts, we talked to the COR about trying to start a new pack. Sadly the temporary pastor was not interested having a pack, and when one was looking for a new home, was turned away. They eventually found one with another troop that was in a similar situation as we are in.

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. As some may recall, I switched troops 4 years ago from a toxic troop to one that was not toxic, but slowly dying. Eventually the toxic issues with the old troop were resolved, and the troop is thriving. My current troop has been active, but on life support, and now we are dying. While we scaled back on activities during COVID, we did remain active doing outdoor meetings, day trips, and even our own summer camp. The problem is we do not have a Cub Scout pack to recruit from. Nearly everyone in the troop transferred from another troop into ours. When we tried to start a pack before COVID, we got 0 support from the council: no flyers for schools, no advertising, no meetings with parents, nothing. And that effort failed. As people age out, move, or leave, we have replacements. So we are dying. I took over the troop this year, and I wanted to empower the Scouts to do more because we had some complaints about boring meetings.. I provided training and tools for them to plan and organize meetings, and it was hit or miss with the SPLs. Most of the Scouts did not take things seriously. When my prime troublemaker moved, I thought things would improve. and folks would get focused on Scouting. But Interest among the is still not there. I have heard more complaints about boring meetings. I share resources to improve them. Nothing. I had a conversation with the SPL about how he can do better, and he has a "no hope" attitude saying "no one listens to me." He does have a point, he was one of the troublemakers, but he was more of a follower. But he is not stepping up: missing meetings without telling folks, not having meeting plans, etc. After the meeting with the SPL, one of the Scouts in a conversation about how the meeting went, tells me that the SPL and his brother announced they are thinking of transferring to another troop. A third Scout then states he will be looking at other troops during camporee. This shocks me because during their SMCs about a month ago, neither one said anything about not being happy with the troop. Ditto during the BOR, as the CC was shocked when I told him this news. I do not know how long this has been the mood, but I would hope my newest ASM, who just aged out, would have told me there was a problem if he knew. We lost one Scout after summer camp for several reasons, but the prime reason was that the guardian said the adults need to be in charge, and not the Scouts. Her did not think his Scout needed to listen to the PL and SPL. This guy was an ASM in the troop 30 years ago and has son who is Eagle. Another adult in the troop, who is WB trained, said the adults need to do the planning and organizing, and let the Scouts execute. My old troop was eventually did this, have the adults tell the scouts what is to be done, and the Scouts execute the adults' plans. They seem to be growing. Another troop like that somehow is able to thrive without a Cub Scout pack. And another troop, which has the SM appointing all the leadership PORs, is doing well, but with the loss of their pack that may change. So that is the backstory. I know I left out a lot of details, and can expand as needed, What I I need are ideas to reinvigorate my troop. I want the Scouts to take charge,but I am grasping at straws at the moment. I'm trying to recruit folks, but no one is interested.

I have personally seen individuals questioning council pros on finance issues be placed in the IVF. The SE played a major role. I knew retread professional who left one toxic council, and went to another when he was eligible to return.. First council found out and tried to get him fired and placed in the IVF because the SE was that vindictive. Thankfully the new boss prevented that from happening.

If this really happened, then you are indeed fortunate. In several councils I have been in, that has not been the case. A lot of behind closed door decisions and deals. But the SE can manipulate the nominating committee to recommending "yes men" so they rubber stamp the SE's decisions. I was told how to do that on the district level when I was a DE by one DFS and SE. Where to begin on this one. 1. Sometimes the powers that be are so set on selling a camp, they do not care what folks want, or willing to do. There was a groups of Scouters locally willing to buy a camp, and take over operations, that way it could still be used by Scouts. They were willing the pay the original asking price. Council wants all the money they could get since the camp had a bidding war between 2 developers. 2. The same camp being sold at one point was THE most used camp in the council with folks from nearby councils utilizing it as well since it was with 1 hours of major metro hours, and their camp was 2-3 hours away. The camp had so much usage, the other camps were being subsidized by its usage. Only reason usage dropped was A. bridge to camp washed out and council took over 9 months to fix it B. COVID, and C. they decided to not hire a ranger when the old ranger retired. 3. Existing council camps have issues, not only meeting NCAP standards but also programming standards. Summer camp has a history or poor staff and lack of adequate supplies.

Ironically, I do not blame the current camp situation in my council on the SE. Camp sales were planned prior to his arrival. Now his previous predecessors....

According to this https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/511-421(16)_WEB.pdf CORs "Represent your organization on the council and district levels." According to this: https://troopleader.scouting.org/chartered-organization-representative/ "The chartered organization representative may become a member of the district committee and is a voting member of the council." Sounds like they are on the council board to me.

Anyone else remember when Scouts sat on BORs for the T-2-1 ranks?

Be thankful you still have a pack. When we stopped being able to recruit in local schools 10+ years ago, my troop's pack dies. We are down to 8 Scouts, with 1 aging out next year. All of our Scouts save 1 either transferred from other troops, or had a brother in the troop. Major concerns if we are going to survive. and council is not helping.

My council has NEVER (emphasis) had an approved Cub Scout camp ground list. Closest thing we have would be the the Order of the Arrow's Where to Go Camping guide. That is what many packs in my area use. Good luck

I am wondering what the membership projection for court was. They pick a specific date for the report. Whatever their registration is on that date is, that is what they are recorded as. For example, the year my youngest crossed over. if they did the report in February 28th, he was listed as a Cub Scout. If they did the report on March 31st, he was a Scout.

Considering National has allowed someone in my neck of the woods to become an "Eagle" when there was clear proof that it was not earned because "you do not penalize the Scout for the actions of the adults" or words to that effect, I would go with it. This is an extremely controversial MB with folks on both sides upset with it. Those on the extreme right say it goes to far, and those on the extreme left say it does not go far enough.

Ah the good old days. In my neck of the woods that has not been happening in over 10 years. We are not allowed in the schools., and council has been no help trying to get into the schools. Last time recruiting was the topic of RT, the pro was talking about how they would sell us recruiting materials so we could do our own recruiting. No mention of the fact that we cannot even get into the schools.

Been happening in my neck of the woods for over 10 years. If memory serves, National put in their court documents that they want to go from 280 councils to about 90. And mergers have begun. Sad but true. And this further alienates the volunteers, continuing the downward spiral. Don't know about that. But at least in my woods, large numbers of experienced adults have left over treatment by pros. In too many instances, their knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience is irreplaceable. One of the great things about having a great summer camp program is developing connections to the camp. Reflecting upon my OA experience back in the day, one reason for it was the connection to camp. In my 12 years as a Scout and Scouter in the troop I grew up in, we went to a non-council summer camp twice. We provided staff to that camp. We were strong supporters of the camp. My local camp has had so many problems over the years, very few folks want to take a chance with it. Why go there when better camps are either closer, or similar distance? No one is interested in volunteering at the camp. Now the local non-summercamp camp was different. Council stopped taking care of it years ago, despite one of the largest council events happening there yearly. The Local OA chapter and Scouters volunteered untold manhours, and unaccounted for gifts in kind to take care of it. I remember an instance where a major volunteer organized workday resulted in so many folks coming out to help, that not only every project on the ranger's list was completed, many longterm goals were completed. But now that it is sold, no one cares about the surviving camp. Sadly yo are right. especially at the Cub Scout level.

This would kill some units. I know of council fundraisers that work extremely well in some areas of the council, but poorly in others because of demographics, geography, and sponsors. I remember "camp cards" that one council was selling, and not a single vendor on the card was located within the district. No body wanted to spend $20 to $30 on a card they could not use. Every council is different, and changes occur within councils with each SE. What may be allowed today, may not be tomorrow. My SE had already stated that a council board member would be appointed COR, and they would be doing their due diligence, INCLUDING SELECTING THE UNITS' LEADERS. (Bold, cap, and underlining for MAJOR emphasis). I see this as do it our way, or you will no longer be involved in Scouting at the unit level in our council. And considering the history my council has, I can see a lot of volunteers removed from their positions because they no longer support the council. A lot of folks are quite upset with our council. They do not see the value in council operations. Paperwork gets messed up, delayed, or goes MIA. That includes advancement reports, registration, and completed Eagle applications. Council also does not support the camps, volunteers do and then the council complains when things get done by the volunteers. Also not enough supplies purchased for summer camp so folks are "sharing" kits to complete MBs. Worse is equipment falling apart when used, including lifesaving equipment. Council does not help in recruiting to the point we have lost 5 units in the past 10 years. Even when they did assist in recruiting, they would not listen when volunteers who live in and know an area say the area cannot support two packs, but they create the 2nd pack anyway. This ends up killing both packs, and eventually a troop, within 3 years of the new pack forming. As for programming, they do not provide any support for events when asked, then complain when an event goes over budget. Stuff that was requested the council order in advance to save money was never ordered. So folks are scrambling last minute to get the needed supplies, and paying more than budgeted because of the supplies are needed NOW. Or they create a second event overlapping an event planned a year in advance that interferes with the original event, without telling anyone until 2 weeks prior. Then when original event organizers say it is not feasible, are rudely overruled. Which entails more supplies being needed to separate the two events, further going over budget. Then there is how council treats its volunteers. When volunteers question decisions, propose alternatives, etc, they are at best quietly removed form their position. At worse, they are yelled and cursed out at and either fired on the spot or quit on their own.. I cannot tell you how many folks in my area have quit because of their treatment by council staff. So I see this as a major danger sign.

Stupid question regarding My understanding is that post-1976 insurance covers both councils and COs in addition to National. So why wouldn't the councils and COs be covered?

If memory serves, the 2019 World Scout Jamboree was a net loss for BSA.