Eagle94-A1

I've seen everything from the presentation kit only Eagle Knife to NESA lifetime memberships. One of my friends had a chartered helicopter flight for him and the other Eagles in his troop as they do only 1 ECOH per year, and they make it a doozy. In my troop, we got the presentation kit, COH, name on a plaque, and our name and year burnt onto a table decoration for future troop COHs. I remember moving around my table decoration a few times to "reserve my spot. One thing I received, and this was a gift from the SM, was an Eagle pendant. I personally have given out copies of the BSA's first edition handbook.

As far as I know Venture patrols still exist as they still sell the VENTURE strip. Way we worked it in my old troop was basically a continuation of the Leadership Corps, in fact we didn't switch the name to Venture crew until after i turned an adult, circa 1993 or thereabouts, because we had a stack LC patches and finished up our supply of them before switching. Way it worked for us was that the LC were the older Scouts who had expereince as PLs, were First Class or higher, and had troop level responsibilities. While we had designated Instructors, everyone did their share of teaching and mentoring. Plus we were the ones running the interpatrol competitions. And you are 110% correct, you don't have older Scouts, you are stuck on a new scout program. I think that is part of the problem with my current troop, and am hoping Philmont will fix it after the group comes back. As for the new parent not getting it, you are so spot on. I hated interfering adults as a youth, and am doing my darnedest to not interfere now. And I am trying to get the new parents out of Cub Scout mode. In regards to camp family nights, Most camps I've been to as an adult have family night on Friday now, and entire troops will leave Friday night after the campfire. Blew my mind when 1/2 my troop left Friday.

If it seems as if I'm critical of the SPL, I'm not. Far from it as I think he is doing great job for the first time. He took initiative. He planned it. He worked his people. And like any first time leader, mistakes were made. And I am hoping everyone concerned, grows from it. Especially some of the adults. I am hoping and praying that some of the adults will back off and let them Scouts make their mistakes and learn form them. ADDED DANG just reread what I wrote and you're right, the bulk seems negative. i was trying to give a summary of the meeting, what could be improved, and what went really well. I do not like ending things on a negative note, and try to end reflections on a positive note. Want to emphasize the following. 1) I think the youth made a giant step forward. I hope it continues. 2) I think some of the worse offenders as adults are slowly seeing the light.

Update from the meeting this week. SPL does need to work on communication and insuring instructors know in advance what they are doing and/or giving them a chance to practice. Also needs to make sure they have supplies Instructor(s) needs to know the skills, practice before hand, and learn how to use their resources. Adults need to learn to butt out of the process, especially if they do not know the skills. What do I mean? SPL talked to most of the folks instructing at the Christmas Party, but not everyone. Didn't follow through to remind them or contact those not at the party. Nor did he have all the equipment. I admit, I brought supplies "just in case." He needs to make sure to contact everyone and plan, plan, plan. Something I need to talk to him about. Some of the instructors he did talk to, didn't practice ahead of time. So instead of helping out with the other skills, they were on the side practicing what they were suppose to teach. So instead of the older Scouts working one-on-one or two-on-one with the new Scouts, it was 1 person working with the new Scouts. AND since this was his first time teaching, it was challenging. Plus some of the Scouts who knew what was being taught, because they were not told to help their buddies, did the skill and waited. As for adults, we do need to butt out. Especially those who don't know the skill. We had 2 recently moved up CS leaders trying to teach knots using smart phone apps. I admit eventually jumping in after seeing the older scouts working on their stuff and not working with the younger ones, and the NSP folks getting frustrated. TG cannot do it all by himself. And those that know haven't learned to take initiative. So what was so positive about the "organized chaos" and adult involvement? 1) This was the first time the youth did all the planning and organizing on their own? Yes, they received a copy of the Troop Planning Features from me, but the SPL appointed the instructors, was responsible for planning, etc. For me this is a step in the right direction. 2) For the most part, the adults realized that they are jumping in too much now. We were talking about the issue of the NSP, and several agree, including the possible new SM, that we need to move away from the NSP and go "old school" with mixed aged patrols so that no one Scout is responsible for working with all the new Scouts. I did have to tell the two new leaders that we need to wait until the next patrol elections to make changes instead of the adults jumping in and making the changes for the Scouts. We need to let them figure it out.

Before BSA produced a spiral bound book, a friend of mine took his to some printing shop where they cut the perfect bound book and turned it into a spiral bound book. When the first spiral bound book came out, he didn't like the quality nor the cost, and repeated the above. He said it was better quality and cheaper.

As a former pro and long time volunteer, I've seen good DEs, and I have seen bad ones. I've seen some coast, and I seen some burn out with exhaustion. I've seen some that had "leverage" over the upper management and didn't have to lift a finger to succeed, and some were so hounded by the upper management, that they worked so much that their marriage, and even health failed them. And of course I've seen a bunch leave in frustration and disillusionment.

My thoughts. 1) I think the parents do not understand the process and need to be registered. The MB process is a chance for the Scout to show interest without parental involvement. It is also suppose to allow him initiative. 2) Me personally, I will NOT sign off on any of my son's advancement UNLESS there is no other registered MBC in the district, and even then I will have another adult look at the stuff and verify that he is actually doing it. We had an issue a while back in my council with one grandfather, father, and mother registering to be MBCs in addition to their unit roles of IR/CC, SM, and ASM. They were not doing a proper job, and no one on the district or council level was aware of the problems until the grandson/son went for his Eagle BOR. He didn't do the work. An appeal went to national, was granted I his favor with the comment you don't penalize the Scout for adult mistakes, and the entire district advancement committee resigned in protest. Another issue, and one I've known since Cub Scouts, is that tend to expect more out of my son than others. So I'd rather he go elsewhere to get an unbiased MBC. 3) In the units I've been in, the troop had policies that parents do not sign off on advancement UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY (emphasis). Example of that was one Nuclear Science MBC in the entire council, so son and a few friends worked on it with dad the MBC.

BLW2, The Leadership Corps was what the Venture crew (not Venturing Crew), now called a Venture patrol, was called back in my day. usually it was the older Scouts who had troop level positions: QM, Librarian, Instructor, etc. Lots of different ways to work it, but here is how it worked in my troop. If I can find the Leadership Corps book I'll post some official stuff. , 1. Had to be First Class or above, a PL for at least 6 months (most were a PL for year or longer), and be elected by existing members of the LC to be a member. 2. ASPL was the PL of the LC since he is responsible for supervising the troop appointed positions. 3. Everyone had a role to play, even if they didn't have a formal POR as being in the LC was a POR from 72-89. 4. We ran the interpatrol activities for the troop. 5. We would occasionally did our own activities. Best example would be the Vicksburg Military Park trails. Instead of the 14 mile road trip, we would do the 12 mile as the crow flies cross country orienteering trek, or if that was closed do the 14 and 7 mile road trips. Rest of the troop did the 14 miler.

OK I'm back 3) Since all the Varsity Teams I've seen have been LDS, yes I've heard on non-LDS teams but have not seen them, I think the reason for the switch from Leadership Corps to Venture crew, as well as the creation of the high adventure activity pins for wear on the Varsity/Venture V Award, was created based upon LDS units using Varsity Teams.

The concept of the New Scout Patrol and Troop Guide position came out officially in August 1989 as part of the OPERATION FIRST CLASS Program. National did some research saying that Scouts who get First Class within a year tend to stay in Scouting longer, and looked at some things to use to retain membership. Hence Operation First Class. The New Scout patrol, Troop Guide, renaming the Leadership Corps the Venture crew, etc as well as doing away with time requirements between T-2-1 ranks were all party of that process. My thoughts; 1) While the report does show a correlation between advancement and retention, it did not show, nor even address, an active program. In my expereince, a 'hiking and camping troop" will retain Scouts. 2) I'm willing to bet that the LDS units separation of their 11 year olds from the rest of the troop not only heavily influenced the concept of NSPs, but may have skewed some of the advancement data. Seems as if LDS units have had a focus on advancement over program since the 11 years olds are limited to 3 camp outs/year. In retrospect, I think the LDS units may be one reason why advancement may have been used as a measurement for retention instead of programming. More later

My troop, stressing troop, growing up had a policy of anyone with 7 or more MBs could wear a sash. I think it came from the long sleeve shirt policy. HOWEVER none of us ever wore long sleeve shirts. Otherwise ANYONE can wear a MB sash.

Hedgehog, ROTFLMBO! The duty roster story reminded me of one of the biggest issues. Now the folks in the NSP have been in the troop anywhere from 6-8 months, with one guy coming aboard last December. So they have some camping experience and know why a duty roster is important. Also their troop guide was a PL, so he knows as well. WWWWEEEEELLLLL the duty roster was just a list of working pairs with no meals or duties listed. Just a bunch of names on a grid. And no one but the TG had a copy of it, and it was in a book. Grant you I had to intervene, because an argument was going on and nothing was getting done. Asking questions was the way to get them to realize how they can imporve the process. For got to add, the only expectation was camp to be broken by a certain time and give them the chance to goof off before leaving. Took over 4 hours to cook, clean, and break camp. One more update. Talking to oldest about the situation and asked his opinion on some things. Asked what he thought of splitting up the mixed age patrol and having the NSP divide up in May when we do elections. Said it it wouldn't work as there are some issues between the two patrols. Asked for his idea, and he said just add new scouts to the existing patrols and divide the patrols when we need to.

Yep, I'm using my experiences as a guide. As to using BP's and GBB's literature, if you read it does it say anywhere about boys joining as an entire den at one time? I don't think you will find one as that concept is a relatively new one. It used to be boys joined Boy Scouts as soon as they turned 12, then it was dropped to 11. I don't know when the concept of entire dens crossing over at one time came out, but I know it wasn't a big deal like it is today in the early 80s. As Eagledad said, dividing up the new Scouts had some benefits. 1) No single patrol is at a disadvantage. Let's face it during any type of competition, the NSP will have a big disadvantage in regards to skills. Venture patrol runs the competition and acts as judges, all the other patrols compete on an even keel with a mixture of experienced and new Scouts. 2) One Scout alone cannot teach a patrol of new Scouts. This is not only based upon my experience as the "troop guide" ( I was appointed the PL of the NSP back in the day), but also on my observations and experiences as an adult. I remember being overwhelmed at times as a youth, and I have observed either more older Scouts having to get involved, the troop guide being overwhelmed, or worst adults getting involved. The last campout is the best example. TG was working so hard trying to supervise dinner and KP, that the patrol campfire was neglected. No campfire for them. Then the next morning, again TG was focused on dealing with cooking and KP issues that striking tents was not done as the PL had no experience and was clueless as to what needed to be done. Unfortunately adults got involved. In a mixed aged patrol, experienced Scouts buddy up with new Scouts to do the various jobs, insuring that things get done. PL usually is an experienced Scout who has some knowledge, skills, and abilities to get jobs done without adults getting involved. 3) Gives the experienced Scouts a taste of teaching, leading, and ownership. THEY are responsible for training the next group of Scouts in the troop. That mentorship is a great bond building tool. I know I' m still in contact with my PL, and SPLs from my old troop to this day.

Only if you stay with in council. Unless things have changed, if you move to a different council, you get a new ID number, and you got to resubmit records. One of the biggest P.I.T.B.s when I moved 5 times in 7 years, was having to resubmit copies of everything.

BLW, Prior to 1989, the only types of patrols were the "Traditional" or mixed-aged patrol, and an older Scout patrol. The older Scout patrol has gone through various changes, both in program and name. The idea of the traditional or mixed aged patrol was two fold: first was to get a bunch of buddies together with similar intersts. But the second was to get Scouts of different abilities and expereince working together. Older Scouts in the patrol helped the younger scouts. The older Scouts in the patrol were the ones who taught vartious scoutcraft skills, in my expereince by buddying up with one or two new scouts. When my troop tried the NSP idea in 1986 as part of the experiment, it was a complete and utter failure. One person could not teach and work effectively with a bunch of new scouts. We lost a few Scouts because we did have a lot of problems on camp outs that the other patrols did not have. We went back to mixed aged patrols in 1987. When a new, patrol -sized, troop was formed, they went camping and did things with us to help them get on their feet. This was circa 1990, and that "troop" had major issues as no one had the basic T-2-1 Skills mastered. Eventually that troop merged with us, and the patrol was split into existing patrols. Never again did they put all the new scouts in one patrol. I want to say the NSP concept came from how the LDS troops are organized. All 11 year olds are in one patrol, with adults working with them until they turn 12. If you look at BSA training materials, it says the NSP has a NSP ASM assigned to them in addition to a TG.I do not like that because under the traditional patrol method, the only time adutls get involved is for safety, and if the Scouts can't teach somehting.

An update. Looks like we may have a new SM. My friend may be taking on the job since he is no longer affiliated with the pack. We'll see how long that lasts since one son is a Webelos, and step-son will be a Tiger next year. Plus his job. But he did say that with the abundance of adult leaders to help, we should have no problems. His approval as SM is in the hands of the troop committee and church committee. Thankfully he's a member of the church, and former youth minister. New SPL so far has taken the job seriously. Haven't worked with him since the Christmas Party though. But he does wants to adults to butt out a bit, only helping when asked. I hadn't told him my son's idea of only having 1 adult in the meeting room with the rest in another room. While we technically have 2 NSPs, in actuality we only have 1. The other is more a mixed aged patrol, they just haven't focused on advancement. Funny thing is, the 30 days of exercises is holding most back from Tenderfoot, and talking to the SM for Second and First Class. The actual NSP only got one new Scout from the Cross Over this month. The other 2 went to a nearby troop. That's fine. And in some aspects we needed a break from growth. The NSP needs some help, and we need to get the troop up to speed ASAP. One of the local packs that normally Crosses Over in December decided to hold back to March and the council Webeloree. DL wants to make a big production of the Cross Over at Webeloree. It will be the first Webeloree Cross Over in about 3 or 4 years as most troops in our area do Cross Over in the December through February range. So we may be getting 5 more. I do know that the WDL wants to keep the den at the CO's troop. Now if we could only get the CO's troop involved with the pack. We need to get ready for next year. There is the potential to get up to 18 new Scouts from my troop's CO's pack. Yep, they have 18 Webelos. And I have a feeling that my middle son, who is in another pack, will bring over his 10 man den. Sadly the pack's brother troop is not doing much with them. So even if we get half of the possible 28, that's still two NSPs! We do calendar years for planning purposes, not traditional program years. So the Annual Planning Conference was just done. The camp outs and activities are not as "adventurous" as some would like. But maybe that is what we need to get the two actual NSP patrols completely up to speed and doing thing correctly. I have a feeling that if we get 14 new Scouts next year, we will need to go "old school" and have "Traditional Patrols" and a venture patrol for the older Scouts in troop level leadership roles. I really do think having everyone mixed up helps transition and camping out more.

I admit, I was "encouraged" to get Eagle by an uncle and cousin. But it was two other cousin's double Eagle COH that really impressed and inspired me to get Eagle as an 8 year old Wolf Cub Scout. In fact, the entire troop made such an impression on me, that when I switched troops, I went to them.

I admit, the adults made the decision for the Cross Over we got 2 weeks ago: wait until January 26th to get the new book, and just start using the new requirements. Since his Cross Over, all we had was the Christmas Party. Next Week is the next meeting. For the rest of them, We've informed them they have until December 31, 2016 to get to First Class or the next higher rank under the current requirements. What I hope does NOT happen is that units ignore the changes and have their Scouts keep working on the old requirements. Had a troop do that, and when they folded, some transferred Scouts had some advancement challenges. One of those Scouts had to appeal for an extension to get Eagle! Thankfully, he got it.

"As for the original questions, like others, I'm not as skilled in the specifics of how the one-year webelos program works within the LDS units, but for other units, say a boy in 4th grade worked on, but did not complete the Webelos badge; it is my understanding that any adventures he earned could be use to fulfil the elective requirements for the AOL (since they technically were not used for the Webelos Badge)." Only as electives. HOWEVER I do not know how the Webelos Duty to God and You Adventure and Arrow of Light Duty to God in Action Adventure would work since the first requirement is identical, and the rest are nearly identical.

I agree with you, and think the new changes greatly diminish the AOL and the work of those who have been with the program a while. But the new rules are the new rules. We cannot add nor subtract them.

Vumbi, Actually my first year Webelos pointed it out to me. When he got his new book, he read it, and told me he didn't need to earn Webelos to get his AOL. So he was going to skip it and go directly to AOL so he can move up in May at 10.5 years. Then he changed his mind and decide to stick with his friends.

Unless it's district or council level folks, the troop or team committee selects the adult. The committee should be following the rules. But I've seen SMs allow folks to be candidates for election when they didn't meet the camping requirement. So I guess committees would too. Unfortunately there is no check as a "Scout is Trustworthy...."

I know LDS units do things a little differently, i.e. no Tigers; Wolves are age 8; Bears age 9; and Webelos age 10, and I do not know how the new program affected the LDS format. BUT under the new Cub Scout program, Webelos is not needed to earn AOL. BUT they need to do the new Adventures to get the AOL badge.

Powderhorn is suppose to be a pin now.