Eagle94-A1

I know of units that this happen to in regards to popcorn. The council was not accepting returns, despite saying they would, and charged the units for the unsold popcorn they said they would accept back. In some cases they charges the unit accounts at the Scout office and would not refund the money they took. Most of the units no longer do popcorn as a result, nor do they use unit accounts at the office anymore. We had one unit go through the Money Earning Application process for a fundraiser, and the council would not approve it unless they got a cut. I do not remember how much, but it was in the range of 10% - 25%. Long story short, the CO's Men's club had a fundraiser, and paid the Scouts to work it. As for FOS donations, another unit was given a quota to raise. That Unit has a lot of kids on some type of assistance and received help from the CO. One of the Scouters was thinking about seeing if the troop could pay the quota for everyone. But after one of the former Scouters, who was then on the district level, was verbally abused by the professional staff, word got around and the committee said "NO!"

I am going to hazard a guess that it varies from council to council , i.e. the number of MBUs they offer. I know that some MBUs are hosted by organizations and colleges, and they want those expert MBCs. I would guess 85%+ are already registered in a paid position.

@RichardB, when you going to remove the lie about Dodgeball from the Prohibited Activities FAQ? Dodgeball, and several variants have been approved BSA games since at least 1929's Scoutmaster Handbook. As recently as 2010, it was approved. A lot of comments from long time Scouters is the lack of trust and transparency we are seeing at the national and council levels. The Dodgeball lie does not help matters.

@KublaiKen, Well, BSA's insurance was suppose to cover all the COs and councils from lawsuits. We are seeing how that is working out.

My council must get some pathetic SEs then. Do not have the records since the new SE came aboard, but the old one, before firing, made about $150K total compensation. That is approximately 682% of the median income in some areas of the council ( yes in some areas median income is $22,000/year) And the services provided to this area was negligible at best. There is more to it than compensation. Yes DEs are paid poorly overall and can make double, and in one case quadruple, their income by switching jobs. Being appreciated and treated with respect was the #1 issue with the pros I worked with. The abuse the SE and DFS heaped upon the DEs caused many of my coworkers to quit. And the numbers rigging. Do not get me started. In my experience as both a pro and volunteer, these folks are EXTREMELY rare. They either luck out and follow the coattails of other rare pros, are they get sick and tired of the abuse and games, and quit.

We were told by some executive board members that after they fired the SE for running the council into the ground (just looked at the financials and HOW could the exec board not realize the SE was ruining the council when it was went into the red over $1 million over a 4 year period), that they could look for folks with outside experience for the SE. Do not know how true that was as the current SE is a lifelong professional. You are correct, National gives the exec board a slate of candidates that they interview and pick. Although see above. I know when my council went thru this process, and I discovered someone I worked with was on the list, I wrote a detailed letter about the individual, and had a 90 minute meeting with the head of the selection committee. They were not selected.

@Momleader I concur with @RichardB. I would work with council to create a smaller twilight camp in your area. There is a lot of liability involved, and you do not want that on you, that is what councils are for. In my neck of the woods, the districts are so large now, that each district has multiple day camps/twilight camps that correspond to the old district boundaries. We only have 3 packs remaining in the area.

One of my Eagles told me how in Iraq, the plastic tensioners on the tents kept breaking. So he used a Tautline Hitch on his ten to fix the problem. His platoon's Gunnery Sgt. sees him doing this, and has him teach everyone in the platoon hot to do this so that when they break, they know what to do.

If this chart shows what is coming next year. I fear my troop will die, as will most units in my area. We are in an economically disadvantage area. Many families are lower class. Over 1/2 my troop is on some type of assistance to remain registered, and the remaining family can barely afford Scouting as it is. Glad one will age out, and the other just earned Eagle, pending national approval. As for the $240 Adventure Fee, is that to pay for a monthly camp out at a council camp? WE can get it cheaper per person going to other, more adventurous places.

So I have been seeing a lot of posts on FB with people passing their Eagle Board of Review, and having Eagle neckerchiefs, slides, and in a few cases medals being worn immediately after the EBOR. Now I am seeing folks either planning their Eagle Court of Honor before their paperwork comes back from National (5 cases), and in the instances last night before their Eagle BOR. Yep, sat on 3 EBORs and their joint ECOH is this Sunday. In all the cases, the SM was able to purchase the presentation kits. One SM purchased "replacement" presentation kits because he is an Eagle, and used his credentials to get them. But the other SM was travelling, saw a scout shop ( I assume council owned as National Scout shops require verification) and got the 3 kits last month. So is this the new trend, or something just in my area?

There are many in my neck of the woods that are so tired of the lies and lack of transparency, that they are hoping that the council mergers happen sooner rather than later. We've already lost one camp, and slated to lose another. Money from those two camps will go to the the main camp' s improvements. And the main camp needs an additional $5 million in improvements, so they willhave a capital campaign,. Either the pros are not telling the board what is going on, or the board has their head in the sand. And considering the last SE was fired by the board, a lot of us think it is the former. It has been leaked a that national will force a lot of camp closures as we supposedly have an overabundance of camps. As for Program Changes, The leaked CHURCHILL PLAN already stated the max age across all programs, Sea Scouts, OA, Exploring, and Venturing will be 18. And while a grass roots movement stymied that, National did state in their press release that they reserve the right to review the age limits in the future. PLEASE! (That's me begging, not shouting ) 90+% of the time, what is heard here, and elsewhere is accurate. I know I have posted stuff from here, including press releases, and have been asked to take them down, even the press releases. I have found out things before pros have. Again there is a major lack of transparency in my council. I hope we survive that long. My council has been of very little help.

I know when the June 2015 Program Changes came out, they started releasing info in January 2015. However when the December 2016 changes came out, they gave no advance warning, including no warning to the committee that created the June 2015 program. There was so little notice when December 2016 came out, that my pack decided to continue using the June 2015 program until the end of the school year since the changes made would have affected the plans we made for the rest of the school year.

@lithigin, It may be considered adding to requirements if you attempt to discuss what was said in the family meeting. I would be extremely ticked off if a counselor attempted to discuss what went on at the meetings with my sons. Don't even get me started at how angry I would be if other Scouts were around for the conversation. Let me summarize what happened a similar situation I encountered regarding Requirement 6.B.2. IT CAUSED AN ARGUMENT AMONGST THOSE INVOVLED (major emphasis). The discussion led to remembering events better forgotten. Folks were accused of making up stuff, and others at the event getting involved, and reliving the nightmare. It was a disaster and the accusation of "airing dirty laundry" was made. As a Family Life MBC, I help them plan it, and make sure they do it. But I ask for no details.

We did a 5 day/4 night summer camp on our own durng COVID. $10/ person was the cost to use the camp for the entire week, and it was a primitive camp. Food was less than $8 a day, and our guys can currently get a weekend for $20. We were able to use another troop's canoes for free. It was well under $100 I would talk to the Scouts and see what they want to do. Also make sure the schedule is flexible. The only thing we had fixed is Thursday Night BORs because we had committee members drivng in to do them. Our bike trek took longer than scheduled, and wore them out. So we had free time afterwards instead of an activity. The forecast had rain the night of the survival shelters, so we moved nites. Again schedule was flexible except got BORs, and we had 3 that night. Just make sure everyone is on board with no MBs. My CC and Scouts want MBs, even the 2 who do not need them. Good luck

My CC who said the comments is a 20 veteran who has been to Philmont and WB with no kids in the program anymore. YOB TOVU MAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Non of my Scouts could afford that.

If I had my way, instead of summer camp, we would be doing our own HA trip. Unfortunately not only is my CC pushing MBs and advancement, but that is what the Scouts want as well. Heck the camp we are going to, which is charging $330, suggests having the last period open to take advantage of free shooting, swimming, and boating, and the comment made "you are paying for classes, need to take advantage of them." When we were looking at camps, most were over $400. Few, if any, of my Scouts could afford them. I suggested a weeklong backpacking trip on the AT, and was told it would be a wasted summer because they couldn't earn MBs. Same person said while Philmont was great, it was a wasted trip because the Scouts didn't earn any MBs.

@InquisitiveScouter, That was the 2022 price. Here are the 2023 prices. And note they are subject to change. That is over $100 more than what we are paying.

OH MY WORD! Did you see the prices for their summer camp. And that does not include tents or cots, which are extra. My Scouts were interested, until they saw the price tag My worry is that when all the council mergers start, and camps start being sold, Summit will be the closest option for us. On a different note, I wonder what those council camps that are "leased" by councils will do.

You mean pull from members and volunteers via councils.

@Mrjeff, in my area, the problem is the council execs. Because they can do whatever they want, if adults question them they are removed. And it is not just OA. I can not tell you how many folks have been removed by CEs at the district and/or council level. And the LEC cannot do anything about it. Something I learned recently, it is customary for lodge chiefs to sit on council exec board for 3 years, their term of office plus 2 years. Some of the lodge chiefs who protested to much interference were not placed on the ballot for the additional years. And yes, the national committee are for the most part pretty clueless in the field. There are a few exceptions, but they are in the very small minority, and easily outvoted.

@KublaiKenlistes some great reasons. I will add some more 1. Costs, Scouting is getting more and more expensive. Over 1/2 my troop cannot afford the yearly national registration and council fees. Add on OA fees and event costs, and it is too much, 2. The quality of today's Arrowmen. My boys grew up hearing my Scouting tales, including my OA stories. They know the OA is supposed to be an honor society. But today anyone can get elected. My family switched troops, but the boys still have friends in the old troop. Several of the Scouts, that got elected from that troop were from the families that caused all kinds of problems, wanting to make Scouts a continuation of Cub Scouts. After the Call Out Ceremony (more on that), they went to their friends and asked how could these two Scouts get elected, and were told everyone gets into the OA. 3. Uninspiring ceremonies. Unlike @KublaiKen, the Native American regalia has not been a concern in my area. In fact, it was awe-inspiring and not cheesy "Hollywood Indian." Grant you the chapter and lodge had help in this matter. We had a ethnohistorian doing research, as well as assistance with local nations. Heck one of the local drums got started at an OA function at the main council camp. And I have been told one of the local colleges' powwows got their start with some of our Arrowmen organizing the first one. And we also had some quality advisors who staffed conclaves and NOACs. Not only were the Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal, and Brotherhood Ceremonies impressive, but also the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies. My kids grew up seeing these inspirational AOL and Cross Over ceremonies. And then the AOL/Crossover Ban came. Instead of Inspirational ceremonies, you got a corny skit for AOL, and a High Adventure Base commercial for Cross Over. None of the ceremony teams in my area would do those. And with concerns about the future of AIA, interest in ceremonies have dropped to the point that our chapter does not have one. Further, when the chapter moved to their new home, they were located in at my troop's Scout Room, and we had a storage room just for them, they left behind all the regalia and supplies. Gustoweh's, gorget breastplates, shirts, front seam leggings, fingerwoven garters and sashes, etc all left behind. My older two sons Call Out Ceremony was such a disappointment, that SMs and family members from several units complained. Folks locally were used to impressive Call Out ceremonies. The folks involved with the AOL/Cross Over Ceremonies also did Call Out and Pre-Ordeal Ceremonies. The ban cost the chapter a ceremony team. Their Call Out ceremony was 2 adults reading names of a sheet of paper at the campfire. And they were not even in uniform or all in black. Just regular clothes and sashes. The last Call Out Ceremony was only marginally better. They at least had youth in uniforms. But they were still reading from sheets. Loss of Camps. Let's face it, the Order of the Arrow was originally an Honor Camper program, focused on improving and promoting camps. Even as the OA morphed into an honor society anyone can join, chapters and lodges still kept focused on camps. Locally my chapter maintained the local camp because our council did not. Any work needed to be done, any improvements needed to be made, any supplies needed to be purchased, 90% of the time it came from the OA. This only intensified when the ranger died, and was not replaced. Local Arrowman assumed his duties. Once the decision to sell the camp was made, and all usable equipment was moved to the main camp, no one had any incentive to work on the camp. Heck the council event took equipment that did not belong to them, stuff volunteers owned and left because transporting it back and forth was a pain. At one point grass was head high, deer were plentiful, and I saw evidence of homeless living in Adirondack shelters. Only time work was done was just before events, and it was done by the volunteers because the head ranger stated the local camp was "not my problem." This situation went on for 16 months. Worse part about moving the equipment was no one was notified prior to the removal. We had a group of volunteers show up to prepare for a camporee, and none of the equipment we were going to use was there, But @Mrjeff's comment Is one of the reasons OA in my neck of the woods is slowly dying IMHO. The National OA committee currently has only 3 Youth members out of 30+ members. At least that is better than a few years back when there were only 2 youth members out of a committee of 60+ That is not Youth running the show. When the AOL/Cross Over ban came out, one of the youth members of the National Committee visited my lodge and would not discuss anything related to the decision, despite being constantly asked. At it is not just at the national level. In the local lodge, SEs and LAs have overuled the members AND the lodge's general membership. Over 90% of the lodge's membership voted against changing by-laws, and they were overuled by the LA under the SE's orders. the youth were told "he doesn't care what they voted, it's going to happen anyway," So why would any be interested

Actually prior to the early 1990s, some lodges did offer a lifetime membership in the OA, similar to the NESA Lifetime membership. Do not know when lifetime memberships got banned by national, but they in fact had them. Met a few folks who had them.

Apparently a lot has changed. Back in the day, the only PORs a COR could hold were IH, COR, and CC. And yes, I knew an IH who held all three, plus district chairman. Most COR's may have done either the IH and COR or COR and CC. At least since 2019, and probably earlier, the COR could hold the COR and CC, or MC PORs. That info comes from the 2019 membership registration book. Recently, there was an Aaron on Scouting post stating that the COR can fill any POR.

That's the main problem with the current training and program, it went backwards. Webelos has NEVER been intended to be another year of pure Cub Scouts. It was intended to transition into Scouts, hence the Webelos acronym: "WE'll BE LOyal Scouts." In the 1980s, BSA did research that showed it takes longer than 9-12 months to transition Cubs, and their parents. That research led to the 18-24 month long period we are supposed to have, The transition is suppose to start in 4th grade because the research the BSA did in the 1980s. The problem packs have in my area, and I bet in a lot of places since the problems seem to be the same, is that adults are tired of repeating training. Let's face it sitting on the computer doing training you already know, and in some cases have already taught, is BORING and leads to distract. OR if the training is not required, it is not done. And if you review the training. there is very little on the nuts in bolts of transition. In fact in some places, the information is cut and pasted from Cub Scout DL training. When I did the old, in person, day long Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, it covered all positions AND emphasized the differences between Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos (now Webelos and AOL). Folks knew what lay ahead, and were prepared for it. When CSBLT was replaced with Cub Leader Specific, there was a lot of overlap with the 3 DL courses. Since my district had already planned CSBLT when Specific came out, the DE and I combined the 3 DL courses so that it was done in a day. Nowadays it is online and you got all these modules you need to do. And let's face it, how many folks run training on a background window while they surf the net.

My Comments in RED I hope only up to AOL. IHMO trying to cram 8 adventures before Crossover could be a challenge and lead to pencilwhipping. I believe that was how it was prior to some time in the 1970s. I know my brothers had Bobcat pins DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will set us back 30+ years. Prior to 1989, Webelos and AOL was 9-12 months total. Studies showed that 9-12 months was not enough time to transition, hence the reason Webelos became am 18-24 month program, to better transition to Scouts. THIS WILL REALLY SCREW UP THE TRANSITION PROCESS! If national really wants to fix the problem, make Scouting Adventure required for Webelos, and actually force Webelos Dens to begin the transition process. But hey, what do I know. I just been around 40 years, saw when this change occurred, and how much better new Scouts were overall. Yeah, we did have some challenges. But not like today. And Live, in person training needs to happen to emphasize the importance of the transition. That is how it was in the mid 1980s. I remember just after Crossing Over, going to my first meeting and getting my Scout signed off and starting my tenure for Tenderfoot.