Eagle94-A1

Eternal rest grant unto him, oh Lord. And may perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen. Krampus, I am so sorry for your loss.

Good idea about mechanic checking out the brakes. Now I gotta find a new mechanic as mine just closed his shop and retired.

Update from tonite: WOW, you just can't please some people. Gunship was ticked off at me and the trek leader, who I named Frustrated above, because we were 1:30 late, and his stepson was too exhausted to go to school today. We told folks we would be at the church at a certain time, give or take 30 minutes. Yes, we got a late start, but that would put us in the give 30 minutes. Putting out the fire put us beyond 20 minutes that, and as you know that group leaving the fire ticked me off. But I had some car trouble, specifically brake issues, that also caused us to be late. I am not use to driving in the mountains, being a flatlander born and raised in SE Louisiana, and living in the coastal plain. I was burning up my brakes to the point where I was "boiling the brake fluid" and my brakes were not working as they should. Frustrated doubled back to help me out and make sure I was OK. After a 30 stop to cool the brakes, there was no further issue. Gunship said that Frustrated should have forced the Scouts to pick up their pace to make up lost time, and he should have left me behind to deal with the car issues. so that the rest of the group could get back either on time, or closer to the original time.Apparently a heated discussion ensued where Frustrated politely, but firmly said four times he was sorry they were late, they called as soon as they could get reception about being late, but there was no way he was going to leave anyone behind. I admit Gunship helped me out when I got injured, driving me to the hospital twice to get my injuries taken care of. But maybe it would be a good idea for him to find another troop like he said he will do after the AT trip.

5 are in the same patrol, and 2 folks from them were MIA. One was sick and ticked off, the other was being scouted for a baseball scholarship, and had to be at the game. He was not happy about missing out either. Those 7 will be doing some patrol camping in the very near future. 2 are in one patrol, and they will be working with their patrol. Funny thing is, both of them do not consider themselves "experienced" scouts, and hero worship the 5 above. Hopefully between me talking to them, and them hanging with their idols this weekend, They now understand when I tell them, "you ARE experienced scouts and know what to do. JUST DO IT." Last one is the APL of his patrol. His PL doesn't have the necessary gear and could not make it. BUT APL has promised to help his PL out, and wants his patrol up to snuff. Actually, I've already but a bug in the SPL's ear to assign this one in October/November to work with Webelos on their CASTAWAY BADGE and work with the Webelos on the survival campout since he is a wilderness survival freak. He did a great job working with the troop a few months back. I think they will do VERY well.

if you find the 2 volumes I'm talking about, DO NOT LEND THEM TO ANYBODY!!!! I made that mistake, and I haven't seen them since. And there is a really good section on starting a troop, training them using the patrol method. That section can also be used to revive the patrol method in a troop.

Wanted to give an update. Troop camp out was cancelled because only 4 Scouts would be able to make it. They had a day trip instead, but don't know how it went yet. Find out tonite. As for the group doing the AT and a few others. The trip was AWESOME! (and yes I'm screaming in joy ) The 8 scouts that went did a stellar job for being first time backpackers. They really took care of not only each other, but also us old fogeys. I think they learned a lot. And I think if these guys take charge of some of the things we talked about, the troop will rock. The only thing that ticked me off to no end was another group. They left camp with a fire still roaring. It took us about 20 minutes and 3 trips to the stream to get enough water to put that fire out. We were running a little behind schedule, but that made it worse. BUT there was another group on the other side of firebugs. They saw us putting out the fire, doing police lines, etc. We ended up meeting them on the trail, and I received a compliment about how they really took care of the fire and campsite. Needless to that was an emotional high for me.

Alas no, my family did not decline. Two of middle son's fellow Webelos were in the camper. They and youngest basically had a slumber party. Wife and our friends probably wished they were outside with a all the giggles and talking that occured. I'm cool with it though because all four Cubs just had a campout 2 weeks previously Switching gears a tad. I was told the troop will revert back to NSPs in December instead of keeping mixed aged. Made a comment to the SPL that he needs to keep all of my pack's Scouts in one patrol, even if it's a 5 man patrol, and not mix others into it to keep the dynamics. The Webelos did a stellar job on that camp out, and the one the month before. They did all the cooking, cleaning, setting up, etc with just a few reminders on both camp outs. Oldest saw them in action at Webeloree in March, and told me he thinks they will have no problems when they join the troop.

I think I scared off Youngest from backpacking. Don't know what happened between when The family left for their trip, and when I met up with oldest, but he doesn't want to carry everything on his back as it's too heavy. I think he tried oldest's pack on, and at approx. 28# it was heavy. As for middle son, he prefers "glamping" in a camper. One of the other Scouts family did the same thing my family did, leave early and have some family time. But they used a camper. When the temps dropped to near freezing, my family was invited into the camper. Trip went well. Scouts did a great job, and I think learned a heckuva lot of stuff. I know I relearned some things I've forgotten. Only think that irked me to no end was the neighboring group left their fire going after they left. took us about 20 minutes to put the fire out having to make sever trips to the stream to get enough water to do the job. Why can't people be careful with fire? On a different note, the troop was complimented by another group for how well we left the campsite, as well as for putting out the fire. They were on the opposite side of the group that left the fire going, and saw us putting it out. Guys did really well

I must respectfully disagree as I channel KUDU. Reprint the 3rd ed. SMHB volumes 1 and 2. From what I've been told and saw in a later SMHB Green Bar Bill, all his other SMHBs are condensed versions of the 3rd. ed.

Yeah we had a WEBELOS (emphasis) who did 40 miles on the AT with Mom and Dad. While a Scout, he taught classes on backpacking gear and backpacking cooking. Long story short, he was disqualified from the backpacking cooking competition because 'we can't allow professionals." And yes, there was no left overs with his dish Actually SWMBO has loaded their backpacks with some gear and has been hiking them around the neighborhoods with Oldest so that all 4 of them could get ready for this weekend. THANKFULLY I was able to convince Middle Son he did not need his vintage, metal first aid kit with the spray can of local anesthetic. THAT KIT WAS HEAVIER THAN MINE!!!!!!

Not YPT, but Hazardous Weather. While I was able to see the certificate, I was unable to print it. I did a screen capture to show I completed it. Regarding MY.SCOUTING.ORG, I will quote the Second Doctor, aka "the Hobo," "You've changed things. HHHMMM, I don't like it." It is not user friendly at all, and trying to get to some of the online training was a pain. Only good thing I can say is the search engine is better that scouting.org's one.

OK understood. Sometimes I'm dense. Well the A.L.I.C.E. I have the son using have been modified. It has the M.O.L.L.E. belt and newer, wider straps. Lot more comfortable than when I used it on a regular basis. I admit I love A.L.I.C.E. but it's been on 2 of my three 50 milers, a NSJ and WSJ, my European Camp Staff adventure, and a host of other campouts. But I do realize it's dated, lots of improvements and tech since it was created 45+ years ago. And after this loading up the car for the wife to go camping with the 3 hoodlums while I slave away at work, I need to start investing in backpacking gear. Trunk was maxed out, and the kids will have stuff in their laps.

All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment specifically the Field Pack - 8465-001-6480 - medium on a frame. I've found the Medium A.L.I.C.E. can do double duty as a weekend backpack and a canoe bag. Especially ones with the quick release straps. They can attach to the thwarts. Some thing I tend to NOT want to remember. On my second backtracking trek, I was overburdened with gear to the point my frame broke, specifically the area where the hip belt was. I made a trump line with rope and necker to help ease some of the weight off the shoulders. it helped.

I woudl not call them "unofficial knots" unless they are new knots, i.e. NESA Lifetime Member Eagle Knot. I would call them "REPRODUCTION KNOTS" ( emphasis) sicne at one time BSA did make knots on a white background, navy background, and kelly green background. Don't know if they made them in a light blue background for Air Scouts or not. I have 2 sets of white reproduction knots for my Sea Scout whites, a set of navy repros for when I either get a Sea Scout Centennial Uniform or service blue uniform, and I just got a set of green repros to go on my Exploring shirt. I would have sewn on the VENTURING strip when they were handing htem out in '98, but the shirt had faded a tad bit and the strip would be VERY noticeable.

I didn't know about Hikerdirect.com when I got my wife's sleeping bag. She loves it BTW, and my oldest steals it from her on occasion, like this weekend, because A) it's cold or B) compression sack. I did use hikerdirect.com for son's birthday present, a Mystique 1.5 tent. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/tents/lightweight-tents/mystique-15 I hate to say it, I've used it more than him, and love it. Borrowing it for the weekend backpacking trek. As for backpacks, we got these for the youngest two when they were on a Back To School Sale for about $40 each if I remember correctly. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/day-packs/solitude . They use them on the car camping trips and are really well made. I used it when we went on vacation last year, carrying a day's worth of food and drinks for 5 people. Comfy. Now I admit, I'm partial to USGI surplus. It use to be cheap, and "If it's designed to survive combat, it may survive Boy Scouts." But looking at some of the hiker direct prices, WWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW! May I take a moment about Alps Mountaineering customer service? 1 word: AWESOME! Father-in-law knew son wanted a tent, but couldn't find a decent one locally. I told him about Hiker Direct ( at the time ScoutsDirect) and he told me to get the Mystique 1.5 for son. They told me on the phone how long it would take to get it shipped, and it would be a day late. I was good with that and had an plan. I told ALPS thank you, and how my son will love his birthday present when he opens it up. Long story short, they processed the order that day in order to ship it so that he could receive it for his birthday! THAT'S AWESOME CUSTOMER SERVICE! And no, I do not work for ALPS nor own stock in the company. EDITED: Looking at these for oldest; http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/red-tail-4900 or http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/caldera-5500

Going to post something positive for a change, and it's the result of my Wolf. He asked me yesterday when can we go backpacking as a family. I told him he's camping with his mom this weekend. He said, "I know that, but I mean backpacking like you and [Oldest] are doing." Looks like I need to either upgrade Oldest son's pack ( 37L with no hip belt) and let wife use the A.L.I.C.E., or get wife a new pack, and let Oldest use A.L.I.C.E. Plus I am going to need to get some more backpacking gear to cover a 5 man crew. Thankfully we got 40L Alps Mountaineering packs last year for the younger two when they were on sale. I love corrupting my kids!

Well, son did surveys last night. It looks as if not everyone did one, but the ones he got are interesting. I asked him if I could read them and he said yes. They are all over the place. The older Scouts clearly see the problems and for the most part were honest. Although I do think they held back. But part of if was that several put their names on it, which was optional. One older scout without a name ( he shared a pen with a named Scout, hence telling he's an older scout) was very honest. Glad he was One was downright sarcastic. Don't know who it was, but that was probably the most honest one. In it's sarcasm it shows how screwed up the troop is. One of the younger scouts doesn't see any problems. But there was one Scout who thinks the adults need to get more involved and help. While I think I know who it is writing that, I do not know for sure. On a different note, I was polite and professional. Only group I worked with was the ones prepping for the AT. Only time I got involved with another den Patrol was to pull a Scout out who needed to be doing the shakedown since he is doing the prep trip. One of the ASM's thought that since I worked with my son packing, he's good to go. Yes, but I want him treated like everyone else. If the group is shaking down gear, he needs to shake down gear.

I'm going to concede on the back history. You're right, it's not something I need to know about. And since oldest would want to transfer instead of starting from scratch, I'm going to hold off talking to the UC about if his church could support a troop again. Regarding the SM, it's a delicate situation. He's been involved with the troop over 40 years, has been SM for over 20, with a break when the troop died, and singlehandedly restarted the troop. Nobody has the heart to tell him "NO MORE" including his wife, doctor etc. As for the area I was thinking of, there is currently no troops there or the surrounding area. Hence one of the reasons I was thinking about going there. I just don't know if there would be support for a single troop. As for working him out, that may happen. He's already involved on the district level, so that won't work. I really do not want the last option because I do not want to lose those Scouts. I think they would quit before asking to join a different patrol, especially since the adults were the ones that set up the patrols. At the moment Son wants to change the troop. I do what he wants. He want the PLC more involved, and he will be working towards that end this weekend camping with the SPL, a PL, and the "influential Scouts" as he calls them.

My UC was the one I recruited to be CM, then the SM, of the pack and troop Gunship was in before coming to my troop. Also he is one of the lay leaders of the chartering organization, and was serving on the committee when the troop folded. I know he wasn't as active a leader as he would have liked, but his company has exploded especially with their overseas customers. But he would know if the reason was Gunship or really they couldn't get parents to step up to the plate. Also he would know if the church would be willing to restart the troop if a new sucker, I mean volunteer, was willing to restart the troop. As well as what equipment and resources the CO still has. On a different note, talked to son some more. He really wants to try and solve this troops problems before giving up. Told him I'd do whatever it takes to help him out, and put up with anything as long as he's happy. Then the bombshell. He said he wouldn't' want to start a new troop, but go to another troop that friends from the home school group are in. I told him he would need to pay more of his share, because we couldn't afford it. Good news is that the troop IS Scout run. Bad news is that they do a lot of expensive trips.

I'm in the process of coming up with a game plan. Some of this is coming from the son. Some is what I was thinking about doing, and some from folks on this board. 1. Talk to the Older Scouts next weekend. The backpacking trip will consist of an ASM, let's call him Frustrated, and myself as well as his wife and my pack's CC whose son is going backpacking. Level Headed will be dropping his Scout off, so the Older Scouts may talk, especially since Gunship won't be around. EDITED: Frustrated and Level Headed are the #2 and #1 Leaders the Older Scouts will go to, even before me. I "talk too much" 1.A. Talk to the UC about why Gunship's pack and troop at his church folded. Aiming for Friday IF he's in the country or not. 2. Since plans have to be revised for June, there is a triathlon where we are scheduled to go, come up with a survey of what the Scouts like, don't like, and want to do to improve the troop. 3. PLC and comes up with game plan using the surveys. 4. Ride herd on adults and see if Gunship actually leaves or not. 5. If things continue going down the sewer, talk to SM, CC, IH and see if they can get aboard the plan. 6. If they can get aboard the plan, go Patrol Method. If not, leave 7. Talk to my old den about starting up a new troop with the disgruntled Scouts from current troop. 8. Inventory and fund-raise as needed to get new troop gear 9. USE THE PATROL METHOD!

This quote is hitting home. I don't know what happened, but something occurred between the packs leadership and the troop's leadership when Gunship was a young ASM. Gunship blames the pack's CO to this day on the death of his troop. The Webelos were not even visiting the CO's troop, visiting another troop instead. In fact, he still has some feelings against the other troop, although no one remains from the time period. But I know for a fact that a troop using the patrol method without a feeder pack can survive on it's own. My troop didn't have a feeder pack before I joined it, nor for 6 of the 7 years I was a youth. So What was the real reason the troop folded?

@Qwasze, Yes, I think it's an idle threat and/or a way to get some sympathy from the new leaders who just crossed over from Cub Scouts in the last 6-12 months. I've been busting my butt mentoring one, but now he's teamed up with Gunship, and I've heard some comments from him agreeing with Gunship. Patrol Method is "organized chaos" but it works. Best example of that is the Older Scouts in the troop. @@desertrat77, Don't know if I'm Eeyore or Cassandra. However I feel like Yoda in Episode V when Luke goes off to Bespin. I don't think I'm being listened to, and the hand that Luke was dealt came off badly (pun intended) @@Beavah, That is my worst fear: destroying the troop. Up until recently the troop was good. Yes they had some problems, but it was getting worked on. It is a slow process changing a troop's culture by doing it right, via the PLC. I've had some handicaps regarding the troop, specifically working with Cub and then when I stepped back from Cubs the accident, plus not being a member of the CO, but it was starting to change. Then Gunship's troop folded, and his Scout joined us. That is when the negative changes started. And it has gotten worse over time, culminating with the last two weeks. All, If I was to "start" a troop, it would really be RESTARTING one. Gunship's troop and pack both folded because he could not get enough leaders in their area to get involved. Again I have contacts with the CO and could probably get them to support restarting the troop. But I know I would tear the current troop apart, and there will be animosity for years to come from Gunship and a few other leaders, especially if I get the pack restarted. Now part of the problem as to why the pack and troop folded, I blame on council. In the push to increase units, they pushed for a new pack and troop to be started in an area that Gunship's pack and troop was recruiting from. Having a small pack, plus a newer, small pack recruiting from the same area is bad news. And eventually both packs and troops folded within 5 years of the second pack being started. But one thing has been on the back of my mind. The troop I'm currently in folded while Gunship was an ASM. He got deployed overseas, and the troop got restarted. Gunship took over as CM of a pack his youngest was in, and served as an ASM for the troop his step-son was in, both with the same CO. Both pack and troop could not get enough leaders to keep them going. My question is WHY? The CC/COR didn't want Gunship involved with the troop as a leader. There is a history between the two, and all of the ASMs ( including me) thought it was because of the history, and wanted Gunship involved. IH actually approved the application, and sent it forward. The common denominator is Gunship. Then the second-hand comment I was told by the Webelos DL, " You don't want to be in a troop with [Gunship] as a leader" is making me wonder.

Had another chat with Oldest. He doesn't want to give up on the troop yet. He wants to try and change things via the older Scouts and the PLC first. BUT he is now agreeable to starting a new troop if needbe b/c I told him that in all likelihood his 2 best friends, the rest of his old CS den, and probably a few others would follow suit. And I need to change Naysayer's handle to something different, more inline with his personality. He's not a helicopter parent, who doesn't get involved except to hover, he gets involved, and involved heavily. He's more of an AC-130 Gunship, always aloft and ready to rain down fury when he thinks he sees the need. So let's refer to him as Gunship.

@@Krampus, So true. I'd actually take you up on the TX offer if it wasn't for the mother-in-law. We as a family are thoroughly enjoying the normalcy while we can. But a relapse is on the back of our minds all the time.

Back. Anyway, Level Headed and I have some concerns. At the moment, neither one of our sons want to leave the troop due to the Scouts in the troop. But with the lack of patience, the way he took over a patrol's planning process, was influential in reassigning the patrols, and commenting on how only half the troop will be able to go canoeing, I see the troop falling apart and fast. I know my son has commented on how the best scouts are all in one patrol. He doesn't like that the Scouts had no input into patrol selection. At least with the original plan for the troop reorg, the PLC decided to pull names out of cup at random. I was told that while I was working with the AT Scouts, only 5 scouts from the other 2 patrols said they were going on the planned camp out with the troop. I know the comment about 1/2 the troop going on the canoe trip in August worries me. When I mentioned what about the rest of the troop, I was told they could either meet them on the river, or do something else. And i know that one of the dads has some concerns because we are not using the patrol method. His son is one of the plankowners in the troop. He was losing interest until he started teaching Scouts. Now it looks as if the Scout is losing interest. i know part of it is no Philmont trip. But part of it is the adults taking over. Now Naysayer ASM did make a comment about leaving after the AT trip because he's had enough. Don't know if that was an idle threat or not. I personally don't think he will follow through. He's had a long history with the troop before it folded.