Eagle94-A1

Back. Anyway, Level Headed and I have some concerns. At the moment, neither one of our sons want to leave the troop due to the Scouts in the troop. But with the lack of patience, the way he took over a patrol's planning process, was influential in reassigning the patrols, and commenting on how only half the troop will be able to go canoeing, I see the troop falling apart and fast. I know my son has commented on how the best scouts are all in one patrol. He doesn't like that the Scouts had no input into patrol selection. At least with the original plan for the troop reorg, the PLC decided to pull names out of cup at random. I was told that while I was working with the AT Scouts, only 5 scouts from the other 2 patrols said they were going on the planned camp out with the troop. I know the comment about 1/2 the troop going on the canoe trip in August worries me. When I mentioned what about the rest of the troop, I was told they could either meet them on the river, or do something else. And i know that one of the dads has some concerns because we are not using the patrol method. His son is one of the plankowners in the troop. He was losing interest until he started teaching Scouts. Now it looks as if the Scout is losing interest. i know part of it is no Philmont trip. But part of it is the adults taking over. Now Naysayer ASM did make a comment about leaving after the AT trip because he's had enough. Don't know if that was an idle threat or not. I personally don't think he will follow through. He's had a long history with the troop before it folded.

I had an interesting 2.5 hour phone conversation with the Level Headed ASM, and the situation IMHO is worse than I thought. The ASM I've had issues with above is not happy with me not only because of my views on how the troop should be run (boy led) and advancement should be done ( select youth (PLC members and a few others) able to sign off on advancement are opposite his, but also how I discussed the performance of on of his former Cubs as PL of the NSP, and how he really needs to step and be a leader, even if he no longer wears the PL patch.NSP PL would not listen to TG, and actually was one of the trouble makers. I sat on his BOR ( which I didn't want to do) and asked some very pointed questions about how he did as PL. ASM didn't like that because Tenderfoot doesn't require POR. Anyway I found out that as the ASMs were picking patrols and assigning ASMs to work with each patrol, ASM above made the comment "I CANNOT WORK WITH [EAGLE94-A1]!" Hence I'm the floater. Level Headed ASM also commented how the SM is starting to lean more towards the Naysayer ASM (Sorry @@Beavah, but that or negative is the only way I can ID him now), which has the Level-Headed ASM seriously concerned. Not only is his son in the patrol that Naysayer is in the ASM for, but he sees the potential for the troop to split apart over the naysayer ASM. One ASM, the one I'm backpacking with next week, already pulled his son out of a camping trip when the naysayer ASM did the menues, duty roster, and shopping list for the patrol and told them that since the patrol was having so much trouble doing cooking and KP,. he woudl wake them up at 5AM so they would finish everything on time. I think I already mentioned that Naysayer ASM told his son, who was suppose to do KP, that he had to pack and take down his tent as soon as he finished breakfast? But I didn't tell you that the Scout said he couldn''t do cooking or KP Sunday morning because dad said they would interfere with his quartermaster duties. More later

Interesting conversation tonite at roundtable. Long story short, the Webelos Den leader of the pack that my troop charters tell me that we should get all 12 of his Scouts. He still plans on visiting troops to make sure his scouts find troops that meet their needs though. HOWEVER, he also told me that one of the Bear dads knows the ASM above, growing up in the troop with him back in the day. He's commented that if the ASM is invovled with the troop, he will not send his son to the troop. This is going to get interesting. Going off on a bit of a tangent, WDL was telling me how his older son is having a better time in the troop now, mostly because we were letting Scouts teach for a while. I told the WDL that my son joined the troop because of him. My son has that scout on a pedestal because of his work at CSDC when my son was a Webelos, and because he ran the meeting my son visited, being given about 2 minutes notice he was in charge. Back on topic, I think I am going to use the lock in and backpacking trip next weekend to talk to the SPL and older Scouts to see what they want.

Unless national plans on making them, I don't see this happening. And last I heard, they are not making neckerchiefs anymore, only getting rid of the ones in stock. And none of my troops old neckers are in stock anymore. That's why they did the custom route.

Make sure to bring the coffee pot and cards.

I'm back. The option I suggested to him is that he runs again for SPL, and if elected do things the way they are suppose to be done. Grant you it's six months away from the next election, they just did them Monday, but I am putting the bug in his ear. @@Beavah Yes, I helped trained him. I trust him, and I'm willing to let him lead the way. I go where he goes. But with some of the adults now in the troop, I need to quote one of the internet memes I've seen, that actually features one of my Eagles. "We got your six covered." Yep that meme with the 6'11" Marine LT carrying a guy in the backpack, both armed with M-4s has one of my Eagles in it. They didn't call him BIGFOOT for nothing. EDITED: I have a bad feeling that one of the adults would sabotage things if my son, or any Scout for that matter, would try to change things that he disagreed with. The troop decided to make custom neckers using triangular bandages, custom patches, and his embroidery machine. To make it easier, the embroiery was just going to put an edge on it and sew the patches on.. Long story short the ASM really doesn't see the need for neckerchiefs, and doesn't like to wear them. The goal was to get enough neckers for the youth for the court of honor. Didn't happen, Next we were going to try and get them for the camporee, 2 weeks after the court of honor. It didn't happen. And yes, this is the ASM who is being a challenge.

@@Beavah, I'm ID'ing the one I'm having trouble with as "naysayer" because someone else labeled him that, and it provides continuity. Trust me I've tried to work with him. Heck I even sees where he is coming from regarding the problem, and I had an idea that incorporated some of the things he wants, i.e. skills review and retesting, with things I see would improve the troop by being youth led , i.e. building patrol spirit and allowing those Scouts with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to take ownership on advancement. Specifically having a month of intra-patrol competitions, say Scout Olympics, so that the meetings are fun, build patrol spirit ( which was severely lacking prior to the reorg, but now even more so), and REVIEWS SKILLS ( emphsis not shouting) ASM in question, when I tried to talk to him about the idea says, :" No, I don't want to hear it. I'm done...." and walks off. Regarding the SM, I know his health is bad, and he has been relying on the ASMs for vision, specificllay 1 whose job is challegneing. It now seems as if the ASM above, who is one of his former Scouts, is now the major influence and providing the vision, especially since I haven't been at the last two leaders meeting because one was doen while I was doing BORs, the other was spur of the moment. I had a nice long chat with the son while we walked the neighborhood with packs on. STARTING A NEW TROOP IS NOT AN OPTION AT THIS TIME! ( caps are emphasis, not shouting). He has friends in the troop, and wants to stay with them. I told him that if a new troop was to start, I think 2 of his close friends who are already sitting on the fence would jump at the opportunity. Plus some of his old den mates would follow him. He doesn't want to do that to his current troop and wants to try and change the troop from the inside. His ideas on changing the troop range from moderate to extreme. I admit,I gave him a 3rd option he is not too thrilled about, but realized it needs to be an option. Moderate is getting a major thorns a roses letter out asking for what the scouts what they like about the troop, what they do not like about the troop, and ideas to fix the troop. Then take those ideas to improve the troop and come up with a plan. Extreme is ignoring any adult mandates and doing their own thing, and having a rebellion. When he made that comment, he then sang a a quote from a song he learned in history class about the French Revolution. More later

Gut feeling, we are 7, possibly lowest of the low on 6. Funny thing is this. A month after crossing over to the troop as a MC, I was asked to conduct first aid training since I'm a MBC and teach first aid and CPR at work. With the exception of CPR and AED usage, my boss told me to run those since the trainers are expensive, and brand new when I did this, I let the Scouts teach the skills. I talked to the Scouts about what I expected of them. Then I used their rank as an indication of what they already knew and told them to teach a specific set of skills. So we had some folks who were Second and First Class teaching T-2-1 skills. Overall the kids did a great job. That instance I think the troop was at a 5/4 level, and it was good.

Since moving back to this area, I've not been involved in the community outside of Scouting. Mother-in-law's health issues have basically caused my family life to revolve around her. It's only been the last 24 months that things have changed. Heck I wouldn't even consider taking on a primary ASM spot, let alone SM, with her health issues. With the exception of restarting the troop that folded, I wouldn't even know who to make the first phone call and set up a meeting. Thinking about it, there is another possible location. We had a pack just start, but it quickly shut down.

Sorry, for whatever reason I thought it was joining and starting. The only organization I would feel comfortable cold calling about starting a new troop would be my church, adn there would be some obstacles, one minor, the other major. Minor obstacle is facilities. The church is doing a heck of a lot of ministry work, especially with the migrant worker community, that the facilties are in use all the time. In fact they just expanded by buying a 2 story house across the street and they are still running out of room. The major obstacle is societal in my neck of the woods: anti-Catholic bias. Long story short, when I was a DE, I had a new pack looking to find a CO. When I told the folks about the Catholic Church, I was cursed out by the prospective CM, lost 75% of the Cubs, and all of the leaders save 1.Pack folded in a year. Now there is a place I have been thinking about since rereading the question that had a pack and troop that folded. I know the CO still has the bulk of the gear, it's in use by the Girl Scouts, I have a history with the CO since I was the DE that started the pack and troop, and some of the lay leaders of the church wer efolks I recruited as Scout leaders when their kids were in the program. It's the same CO that the naysayer was CM and an ASM at last year.

Good question. 1 troop is worse off than the one I'm in. At least this one camps once a month, the one worse than mine doesn't. 1 troop has "maxed out" and is no longer accepting anyone. Plus there is some "history," and I personally may not be welcome. Long story short, right before I became a DE, their SM had his membership revoked. While I was the DE, the former SM went to trial and was reinstated by the courts until he lost the case. While I had absolutely nothing to do with the situation, heck I wasn't even told he was reinstated while the court case went on until I saw him at RT and called my SE about what to do, I was the "face" of the council at the time, and there is a lot of animosity about the decision. 10 years after the court case, folks at the CO still remember that I was the DE when the troop's SM had his membership revoked.. 2 troops are out of our league price wise. Sorry I cannot afford a $200 ski weekend or $400 summer camp every year. Espeically since middle son will be a Boy Scout January 1. 1 troop I know little about, except they are in trouble. We had one of their boys transfer to us and another is looking to. and1 troop I am looking at, but it would be a drive. BUT the #1 reason why I have not looked at other troops is because my son is happy with this one at the moment. His new patrol has one of his old CS den mates in the patrol, and one of the friends he made in the NSP is also in it. Plus I think his patrol will be OK since the level-headed ASM is working with them.

IMHO, the challenge is that me and the naysayer see the problem, but have two diametrically opposed views as to the solution. I want the youth in charge, having more authority and having responsibility. Basically solving it on the production line. Naysayer wants to fix it prior to SMCs and BORs with adults reviewing the skills and saying whether the Scout is ready for the SMC and BOR or not. basically solving the problem at the end of the production. And naysayer essentially wants it his way or the highway. There was some conflict over this, basically between me and him, and its ongoing. And yes it is affecting the Scouts. One ASM, the one described as levelheaded above, told the me the conflict IS starting to affect the Scouts, and he is just waiting for his son to get fed up with the troop so he can find one closer to the son's house. And I think there may be another issue that is affecting this. Apparently he's upset about one of his former Cubs BOR that I sat in on. Long story short I asked the Scout about his performance as a PL, what he could do better next time, and more importantly that "once you wear the green bars, you are a leader in the troop whether you continue to wear them or not. It will be expected that you step up and help out" as my old SPL once told me. Apparently naysayer didn't like that I asked about his performance as a PL since it was not required for advancement, and the SM had discusses the matter a 2 weeks earlier and again at the SMC that nite Which is ironic because the naysayer is all about retesting and proving oneself regarding skills, yet ask some questions about performance as a PL is a problem. On a different note. It was announced last night that the troop will use NSPs for six months when the Webelos come aboard in December. Naysayer is thinking we get 16 of the 24, and 8 will drop by summer camp, keeping 8. If middle son's den comes aboard as 6-9 Scouts, and that is possible, then I will raise hell if anyone but me is assigned to them as their ASM. The Webelos do NOT need to be treated as Webelos IIIs. My son's den rocked at the Webeloree, actually carrying the weight of the combine Webelos 1 and 2 dens, and this past weekend they did a stellar job camping. The Webelos did the cooking with minimal assistance, and I stress MINIMAL assistance from the adults. The Webelos needed a few reminders about KP at meals, but overall they did a stellar job. In fact they did better than older son's NSP on the last camp out, and most of them have been Boy Scouts for a year now! I am not going to let Naysayer, or any adult-led oriented ASM, screw up that group. yes I still consider them "MY SCOUTS."

Yes, a hike and 3 days at summer camp without the naysayer. Agree 110%. Sad thing is the naysayer's younger son. Kid has so much potential, but is under dad's thumb, even when dad is not suppose to be working with him as son will search out dad. Thank you for the encouragement I need it. very frustrating at times. The entrenchment is what I'm fighting to prevent. Entire reason I switched from Cubs to the troop: to help get them going. More later.

Clarification with 'stuck around older Scouts." I was not assigned a patrol. I am working with the older guys because I'm the second leader on the prep backpacking trip in 2 weeks. Also since 1 of their ASMs is on call alot and can leave at the drop of a hat, I'll be helping with them. Upon reflection it may be a good thing I'm not assigned to a patrol. I'm against the Webelos III format it's turning into, and I can work with the older scouts.

Interesting night. Where to begin. I admit I see the issues some of the leaders are complaining about: lack of skills. My thought process is to get the Scouts to teach the skills themselves or using the skills on camp outs vs. skill review nights or verification check offs before SMC or BORs. So I came up with an idea: Intra-Patrol Olympics. Yes the youth need to say yes or no to it, but the Olympics would A) learn/refresh/ review skills B) competition would rrevive patrol spirit and teamwork in the new patrols, and C) give the adults a chance to see what the Scouts really know and feeling more confident in allowing the Scouts to sign off on advancement and running things. It could be done over a month and have some fun doing it. The biggest naysayer won't even listen to the proposal. " I'm done" and walks away. I admit it was disturbing. SM discusses what was discussed at the leader's meeting Saturday nite with the Scouts, i.e. what was discussed above, and what was going to happen. Older Scout patrol will essentially remain, and will be doing their own thing. Other two patrols will be redistributed so that a mix of experience will result. Here is where it gets interesting. SPL had to be one of the older Scouts. Now I admit I like First Class and above AND time as a PL in order to be SPL. I firmly beleive you got to have experience facing the problems a PL has in order to help mentor a PL, and one of the SPL's jobs is counseling the PLs. So I'm good with that. But since the bulk of the older Scouts are going on the AT, the ASPL had to be ELECTED (emphasis) from one of the Scouts not going on the AT. OK not purely patrol method with the SPL appointing his ASPL, but I can see the reasoning, the Scouts see the reasoning and are cool with it. Question was raised if the older Scouts would have to listen to the younger ASPL, and were told they were voting for the ASPL, so yes they would have to listen to him in the absence of the SPL. When the older Scouts realized they were voting for ASPL instead of appointing, they were good with that. And the ASPL elected is a good one IMHO. While not officially a PL, he was a de facto PL because his PL never showed up to a lot of stuff, and he held the patrol together. 2 ASMs were assigned to work with each patrol. 1 patrol's ASMs I have concerns about. The Naysayer is starting to influence another, ASM, so I have some concerns. But the other patrol has one ASM with a steady head on his shoulders and i think will moderate the other ASM. OK the steady headed ASM is a little more hands on than some may like or that I'm used to, but the way he does it is really good; it's more like a big brother. Which is how BP describes the SM's role. Patrol Elections were then done in different rooms as well as coming up with flags, yells, etc. I stuck around with the older Scouts because I'm assigned to them at teh moment. My big push was telling them details about next week, and that 50 miles on the AT is not off the table IF they are willing to come up with a training regimen between now and the trip.

Regarding the scouting out a trail in advance, MEA CULPA, as well as a few other leaders as well. I was taught, not only in Scouts but also with another youth organization I worked for, that you not only want to use the maps, but you want someone who has been on the trail or river before. When I was in Canada, we had local Scouts serving as guides. When I did the river expedition for my job, the trainers had all done that stretch of the river before. Yep we planned it and created extraction points, etc. when things DID hit the fan, it was nice to know that the trainers new EXACTLY where they were on the river, and were an extraction point was. Yes our emergency had to have a medevac, and he nearly didn't make it. Our backpacking guru has a similar story, as well as another ASM. As for being reckless, I don't think so. You know your Scouts, and have been prepping. We have had minimal prepping, and we are safety paranoid. Especially with my family's history of me getting injured on a camp out, and the wife pulling out a body from the lake and doing CPR. Waiting out the biggest naysayer IMHO will be a challenge as he is a Scouting addict like me, plus he is the ASM who is a former youth in the troop. It seems as if he doesn't have the patience to let them screw up, and learn from their mistakes. Heck I found out that his son, who's been a CS and in the troop a year, doesn't know how to put up one of the tents! Apparently other Scouts and/or dad has been doing it for him!

"There not ready for that." is the excuse I'm told. My plan B is to focus on which ever patrol I'm assigned to or my son's patrol, or both. There may be a lot of patrol camp outs being planned. Sad thing is this, my middle Son's Webelos Den is performing better than some of the patrols.

Some troops still use the Service Patrol and Program Patrol. Service Patrol is responsible for set up and cleanup of the meetings. Program Patrol is responsible for running program including getting needed equipment and instructors.

Maybe I'm the "troublemaker." They do a leader's meeting when I have to do BORs. Then this leaders' meeting at camp when 1 leader is scouting out a new trail for the AT folks since we cannot do the original trail due to lack of permits, and I'm with the Cub Scouts in Cub World. Am I paranoid, or am I paranoid enough? Seriously though. this statement says it all IMHO "lack of common vision and unified leadership."

Well the advancement situation I've discussed in the other thread has lead to some "challenges." That, something our older scouts commented on, and our schedule for the next four months has caused the troop's adults to take two steps back. Yep they had a meeting last nite while I was campign with Cubs Scouts, and one of the leaders doign the AT was not there,. Older Scouts. Our older Scouts are not happy with being split up but understand. They like that they will have a prep trip away from the rest of the troop, and time on the AT. This weekend, they could not compete since they didn't have enough members of the patrol attend to compete. So thew SPL decided to split them into the two patrols. Fair enough. SPL made the call. But apprarently they made teh comment that they want to compete as a patrol at the district camporee in 6 months. Schedule. Our troop's planning and follow through sucks. Long story short, the troop planned to go to Philmont, but didn't plan times to do prep trips. One ASM not going to Philmont decided they needed a prep trip and took the planning of it on his own to helpthe Scouts out. WELL Philmont is cancelled, and he is trying to organize a AT trip, but getting everyone together fro practice is a pain. But this month 1/2 ther troop is doign a prep trip and 1/2 is going on a standard campout. next month is summercamp, and July is AT and a smaller weekend trip. Now August was suppose to be a canoeing campout, but apparently the section of the river selected is going ot be tough. The adults planning it are saying only abotu 1/2 to 1/3 of the troop will probably qualify skills wise to make the trip,essentially the backpacking group, and the rest will have to do something on their own..Sept. is camporee prep, and since the older scoutys want to compaete one last time, Plan B, put together by the PLC with some adult influence is going to be scrapped. So what's going to happen now? All the older Scouts goign on teh AT will be in one patrol so they can do their own thing to prep for the AT on meeting nites. OK cool with that. Everyone not going on the AT will be divided into two patrols. How they do the division remains to be seen and I have muy concerns. SPL will be elected from the AT group since that is the most experienced Scouts adn teh ASPL will be selected from thoss not going on the AT. WAIT A MINUTE , WHAT?!?!?!?!?!!?!?! Also, I was told that my estimate of 13- 24 Scouts is way off, since we usually only get 1/3 of the available new Scouts, so they will be placed in a NSP for 6 months until they can get their act together and join a standard patrol. WHAT?!?!?!?! THE CURRENT NSP HAS MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN IN OVER A YEAR ALREADY?!?!?!?! And to make sure that what happened advancement wise does't happen again, the adults are proposina adding a step in which the Scout shave to do a skills nite with the scouts to prove they are ready for the SMC and BOR WHY ARE WE ADDING STEPS???? WHY CAN WE NOT LET THE SCOUTS TRAIN THEM AND TRUST THE SCOUTS TO SIGN OFF WHEN THE "STUDENT SCOUTS" DEMONSTRATE MASTERY OF THE SKILLS??? vENT OFF

Prior to me joining, he had 1 ASM who doubled as CM, and whose job severely restricted when the troop could camp. and a 2nd ASM who was also the IH, so he was limited as to when he could camp. When i joined the troop he got another dad in as ASM, but can only come every other week due to the custody situation, and myself as a MC. Over the past year, we got me switched over to ASM, plus 3 more ASMs and an MC. 1 ASM never had Boy Scout experience, but a lot of outdoor KSAs. He's developing nicely. One ASM just crossed over from Webelos in Dec., and has no prior Boy Scout experience. He freaked out when I said the Scouts should sign off on advancement. And the one ASMwho has a lot of Boy Scout expereince, and was in the troop as a youth, has been some of the problems. The MC needs more seasoning. Knows the theories and can see where I'm coming from, but doesn't think the scouts are quite ready for it YET, except for a few of the older ones. As for trusting the ASMs enough to step down, that may be part of it. But I also know part of it is the CO. I had a chat with the COR/CC, and he told me point blank that they want someone who is a member of the church as SM because they do view it as an outreach ministry. Since only 1 ASM is a member, it does limit the selection, and his job is crazy. He's already been called away from meetings and camp outs. According ot the GtA, the SM is responsible for who can and cannot sign off on advancement. So every troop does things differently. My troop and another have the SM and other adults only sign off. Some troops in the area allows the boy to sign on one side of the book saying they have seen the scout doe the skill, but the adults sign off on official side of the book. Ansd some unuits have the youth sign off. Game plan is by June We will have the PLC members and a few others up to speed so they cna sign off. I'm partial to letting youth sign off, but I also remember when youth coudl sit on BORs. KDD, give you some background. SM is a long time Scouter, 50+ years, who was SM when the troop died. He singlehandedly resurrected the troop, and for 4 year was THE force behind the troop, being a one man show. Part of that was folks who helped out also were involved inthe cub scout pack. for the first 4 years, they averaged 8-12 Scouts, and then doubled when my son joined, and added another patrol a year after that. We can expect anywhere from 12-23 new Scouts from 2 different packs come Decemebr. We have has some issues for the past year with our NSP, and we are workignon getting those corrected. Troop leaders are also concerned with the SM health as he does have medical conditions requiring oxygen, and he was hospitalized twice in 2015.

Nuff said.

Forgot to add, I really think this debacle is another sign that the SM needs to step back and let others do more of the work. I know we have an ASM in charge of advancement now, and I'm working on the paperwork side of things. His health concerns all of us. He has his good days, and his bad ones. But I think Scouting is taking more out of him. Problem is he's a Scouting Addict. When he was in the hospital last year, he was upset he was missing a meeting. Wife tells me that will be me in 30+ years.

Some additional info. 1) No, mom is not a registered leader. Mom is a drop off and pick up, and even then sometime it's grandma that is doing the dropping off and picking up. I don't think I even saw her at the Court of Honor. 2) Because of the reorganization in the troop, I didn't want to take away any of the new youth leaders from their new patrols to deal with this problem that the adults caused 3) One of the ideas I wrote in the original post came from his TG. Yep, son wanted to "revoke his rank," especially since he couldn't remember who signed off on the requirements until the 3rd time he was asked, and the SM added "...was it your mother?" That's when he admitted mom signed off. When I told my son we could not do that, it was then "treat him like a Tenderfoot and make him do everything all over." 4) We have no idea where the Scout is moving too, let alone what troop he's going too. All we know is the mom is remarrying and they are moving to the outer banks as soon as school is over. Trust me we do not want to dump the problem on anyone. Heck we are embarrassed it happened.