Eagle94-A1

I admit I volunteer for my own selfish reasons. One is I want my boys to have the same opportunities for adventure that I had. Another is that I am a Scouting and outdoor addict, to the point where during Cubs, the wife kicked me out of the house to go camping wiht the OA or a troop because I was going through camping withdrawl. Finallly I feel an obligation to pay back to the leaders I had by continuing their legacy. As for Eagles being unlearning what they have learned, I agree. I say the most difficult transition was from Boy Scout to Scouter as opposed to Cub Scout Leader to Boy Scout Leader. I was worse than a jerk for a while. But going from Boy Scout leader to Cub Scout leader was a bit of a challenge too. Still wish I took a picture of my 5year old Tiger wearing an ALICE pack on a camp out. I should have named him " Helpless Turtle.

When the heck did they add the 2 year thing? Grant you I'm glad that a brother and sister can share the same tent now, we have a set backpacking, and they are a backpacking buddies.

Well, we had to adapt for teh weekend trip, couldn;'t get the enough permits to do the area we wanted. Plan B is national forest, and we definatley want the spray. Wife, dad, and friend were hiking a trail in the area, and encountered bear,.

Just wait until you try to find info on the website, and I'm a librarian who can make most databases dance on a dime. I think one of my Cubs could do a better job doing the coding for that website.

Wanted to give a quick update. Looks like the police report will be useless for documentation. Apparently someone else claimed to jump in and do CPR on the victim. I'm not happy, wife could care less, but my friend with the police department is TICKED OFF (both emphasis and shouting on his part). He's madder than a hornet's nest because A) the people who deserve the credit are not getting it and B) it's falsifying a police report. But because it's not anything major ( EMS was able to revive him and send him to a hospital) it's not worth the time or energy to correct it.

All this talk about sheath knives, Why do I want this knife for bushcraft?

AMEN! I admit I was a horrible ASM at 18 and 19, to the point where some of the Scouts, including a few friends, wanted to quit when I was the "lead ASM" since I was at summer cmap the entire week, and the other adults were in and out. Thankfully the SM at the time went though the same problem with his Sea Scout ship, and was able top correct my course. "Unlearn what you have learned." Yoda.

Back in the day, we paid monthly dues instead of weekly dues. Started at $2/ month then moved up to $3/month. That $24-36 covered registration, BL, and some troop supplies. However we did fundraising with some money going to Individual Scout Accounts ( I know not allows) that we could use for dues, and activities, but the bulk went into troop operations. The Pack my younger sons are in charges a lump fee, although you can spread it out over 3 months. I'd take spreading it out over a lump sum anyday. Way it worked for me, and oldest now, dues are HIS responsibility, and he needs to pay out of his allowance.

Sorry, scribe not QM. My brain is fried after work today.

AMEN!

That may be a very good one.

A few thoughts. 1) for AOL, you "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old. (Being active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, and working on den projects.)" So unless he's 10.5 at the end of 4th grade, he can't earn AOL. Now my tale. My son has a late birthday. He will be over 10.5 when June 1 hits. He was seriously thinking about skipping the Webelos badge and going directly to AOL so he could cross over in June and go to summer camp with big brother. When it was pointed out he would be in the NSP and when his buddies joined 6 months later he would be in a different patrol, he decided to stay in the pack. Regarding Mixed aged patrols and new Scouts. Way it worked in my old troop, the "expereinced" scouts of ages 12-14 in the patrol would buddy up with a new scout and mentor and mold them. It was usually people's first time doing servant leadership. The PL would pick out who would work with whom. When we eventually got a feeder pack, we would buddy them up at the meeting(s) before the webelos overniter so they could get comfotable with the patrol. Then on the cmapout they worked with the patrol. GREAT RECRUITING TOOL

Way it workls in Son's troop is patrol QM collects money, fills out the patrol dues envelope, and turns in the envelope tot eh troop QM. I don't know if the patrol QM's keep copies of the deposits. I know the troop QM and SM keep records. Some Scouts will not be getting their awards Monday until their dues are paid, becasue that's where teh $.25 / week goes to. And awards aint cheap. 14 MBs and ranks was over $30!

$52/ year in addition to the $24 registration? $76/ year. What do the Scouts get from it? I know the pack I'm with charges $60/ year without Boys' Life and $72 with. Money is used for registration, wards, supplies, etc. My son's troop is $.25/week plus $25 for registration and insurance and an additional $12 is you want Boys' life. Going to go up some, $.50/ week to cover expenses.

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one. Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way. I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

In reference to the type of patrols, i.e. Traditional vs NSP, I think it depends on the situation. Yes you heard me, It depends on the situation. How did I come about this, talking to a Scout. Chatting with son, he commented how he thinks there may be a possibility that we could go back to NSPs, or putting them in patrols of 5-6 new scouts to 2-3 "older" Scouts, and have our current older Scout patrol reform as a venture patrol. I asked him why did he think it would work this time, when he it's not working now? He said that the NSP he was first in worked OK, and that was because 1/2 came from 1 pack and the other 1/2 came form another, and both dens had some interactions with each other via day camp and council camping events. So it was easier to work together. BUT the current NSP is much different. Members come from 4 different packs (5 different dens since 1 moved up early). And wth that many differences of how Scouts should be, its causing a problem. And thinking about it, he's right. My son's NSP did have a lot in common despite being in 2 different packs. Both started the transition process as soon as they turned Webelos. Both packs had interaction on the district/council level activities, mostly due to the fact that one pack essentially split form the other, so the leaders of both packs were friends. But the current NSP is a conglomerate. Some of the guys had minimal interaction with one another at district and council events, so they didn't get the chance to know each other prior to joining. And the transition process varied.Two packs started the process to transitioning to Boy Scouts beginning of the first year as Webelos, one waited until 1/2 way through the first year, and the 4th didn't begin the transisition until 2 or 3 months before Crossover! that many differences will cause chaos. Then add in ineffective TGs, and it makes it worse. I always said being a SM or ASM is an art and not a science. One size does not fit all. But most importantly LISTEN TO YOUR SCOUTS! They know better than the adults what is going on, who are strong leaders and who are weak. BUT YOU CAN'T INTERFERE!

If an adult won't listen to another adult when asked to stay out of the Scouts hair, I doubt the adult will for a youth. Now if the SM said it, I would hope so.

One reason why my troop is going tradition patrols versus NSPs. BUT you gotta keep the adults from butting in

If that is true, and upon reflection it probably is, then I see why the troop I'm in folded a while ago. The Eagle I've been discussing in the other thread was an Eagle just before the troop folded. So if he is modeling what he learned as a Scout, and if the situation in the troop does continue, then I do see the troop dying again. I remember a troop growing up that was entirely adult run, specifically SM run. Yes the PLs and SPL were elected, the patrols selected meals and did duty rosters, but the SM was the puppetmaster, and the PLC his puppets. I admit, they looked good, won lots of interpatrol/intertroop awards at summer camp and camporees, etc. But the minute the SM stepped down, the troop declined and eventually folded within 6 months. No adult could do everything the SM did, and the youth could not do squat on their own. My troop was not perfect, we had our issues. But we were Scout led. When our SM backed out of a lot of stuff due to work and health, the Scouts really didn't notice. Heck I didn't find out he had health issues and stepped down for 4 months after he had resigned. And I only found out when I talked to him about my Eagle COH! That was the type of troop I was in. We had a "paper SM" and none of the Scouts realized it. It was announced 2 months after my ECOH at the Christmas COH/ recharter time.

Yes they are. TG, SPL's approval, has backed away somewhat because they SHOULD be able to do things without him. His goal this weekend was to have them do things for themselves, make mistakes, and grow from it. Here's the funny thing. Saturday until dinner was no problem. Issues with KP that the SPL resolved. THE NSP WAS GETTING THINGS DONE! Then the morning KP fiasco and the adults jumping in ruined it all. Agree, the SPL and/or the SM should have jumped in and dealt with the ASM. I hate to say it, but IMHO our society is not teaching kids to be thinkers and leaders. In my experience Scouting is the only youth organization that does it. And right now I and the troop are failing the Scouts Actually dad relented, and gave the son the choice of going to camporee, or going backpacking with dad to scout out our May trip since that weekend is the only weekend dad can scout the trail. Let's see, going to camporee with events that are beyond the abilities of the scouts in my patrol, dealing with adults bugging the heck out of me, and being miserable OR doing something I love, backpacking, with my dad and scouting the trail for the troop. No brainer. Dad and son are both frustrated and have been for a while. There has been talk of switching to another troop that does more backpacking. And while he is a leader, he is a dad first. Actually it didn't last long. The decision changed to "patrol counselors" mentoring the PLs. I have mixed emotions onPCs. Only 1 troop I was in used it effectively; the PC advised and mentored the PL, and worked to get another leader for patrol camping if the Scouts wanted another camp out. The other one had some challenges (not as bad as this though). But the troops I've seen using it, it appears to be Webelos III. So I have big reservations on it. I agree with giving responsibility and authority to the Scouts. I've seen it work, know it works, and want it with this troop. And I have also seen what happens when you do not give responsibility and authority. We have 1 troop dying, and this troop has the potential to die. Part of the TG's goal this week, and really the entire month, is to show they can do it without him. And it was working until the adults butted in. Was it working perfectly, no. SPL and TG had to intervene once this weekend, until the Sunday KP fiasco. Tell me about it. It got heated. Asked me to name 1 scout who could teach a class decently. I named two within the past year for wilderness survival and backpacking. was told those weren't basic skills. My next question was this: HOW DO THEY GET THE EXPEREINCE IF WE DON'T LET THEM TRY (emphasis, ok maybe a little loud voice cause to me it's obvious.) EXACTLY! We have some great youth. are they rough, yes. Do they need some mentoring and advising. Absolutely. BUT THEY DO NOT NEED US INTERFERING AND GETTING INTHE WAY (emphasis) Yep. I know. I'm screwing up too. I keep trying to get the adults out of their hair, but this one adults keeps blazing in. We need to get the adults out, but I need to convince the others to do it that way. Regarding reorganization, we are trying to instill in the older guys "servant leadership," and "it's time to give back to the troop," and "You need to work with these guys to keep the troop going and doing more than the same old same old." As for the Mrs., trust me I'm listening. I had a brief thought that if they troop becomes "Webelos III" I might as well go back to the pack and help them since they are starting to struggle. BUT then I realized who would stand up for the Scouts against the adults trying to ruin the program?

Long, Rough nite. SPL opened the meeting, a few anoucnements given, then the told to prep menus and duties roster for camporee The patrols split off. Instead of the discussing the issues, a bunch different conversations broke out. No working on the matter. Little frustrated When the patrols came back, they were asked if they completed the task of menu, food list, and duty roster. NSP didn't finish the any of the task. SPL was going to give them until Monday to come up with a menu and price, when one ASM stepped in and said since they could not do their task in the time allowed, and since they had so many issues with KP, that he would do the menu, duty roster, and shopping list for them, and that they can wake up when he does and start breakfast and KP, and he wakes up at 4AM. I'm not going to make a scene in front of the scouts But one of the other leaders is ticked. So ticked he asked for the camporee payment back because his son is not going to camporee because he and the patrol is being set up for failure. Instead the son will be joining dad on a recon of the trail we are now doing in May. Since the adults were not meeting, I need to calm down, and one of the Scouts needs a book I have, I drive home to get it. Come back the adult decided to meet after all. They agree that multiple adults giving conflicting directions is a problem. Adults are to go through SM. GREAT I"M GOOD WITH THAT. But I mention how the leaders don't have any real authority and in the case of the NSP, the TG is ignored by the rest of the patrol. I suggested that we give the PLC and select others the power to sign off advancement. Leader who did the menuy and duty roster said HECK NO THEY AREN'T READY, they don't know their stuff. name two scouts who effectively taught a class, and I mentioned how the wilderness survival and backpacking classes that were done. "Those aren't basic skills, how many can do their knots" was the answer. Right now it's one and done" And I replied, "That's because we are not letting them use those skills on a regular basis by letting them teach. In medicine it 'see one, do one, teach one." and we need to let them start teaching. As you can imagine it was getting really heated. Believe it or not, it was the new crossover leader who calmed things down. He said he doesn't know if he's ready for Scouts to sign off on rank yet, or if he will ever ( I can respect that he's new and hasn't seen it in action), but maybe we should assign an ASM to each patrol to work directly with the PLs and get them up to speed, and maybe have them sign advancement in the near future. I warned about Webelos III, and he admits that's an issue we ALL need ro be wary of and recognize it int the others, AND TAKE ACTION when needed. It's a compromise and he suggested we meet separately from a meeting nit eto discuss this prior to the patrols being reoganized to get ourselves organized. I can live with it. And I hope it works On a diffeerent note, I've been talking to the wife about all this. She told me point blank that she is "uncomfortable sending MY scouts to Troop XYZ until the adults get their act together." She's taking ownership of her Scouts and looking after their best interests.

Some said adult led is used because it's the only way adults know. I say's its because the adults don't have the patience to do it right. I say it's because the adults do not want to do the difficult work involved in training their Scouts, trusting their Scouts, and letting them lead. For those following my posts, yes it wa a rough nite.

Problem we had with the S 'biner was a specific type of bear hang. I think it's the PCT method the Scouts were taught that day (old school method I was taught had no problem, but even Philmont has changed to a double line method). The method includes a stick and a carabiner. S'biner will have the rope slip into the bottom half, and locks it in place so it cannot come down at all. Back on topic. Because I'm ADD (SQUIRRELL ) I came up with an outline to for me to use when talking to the other adults. Feels like Cub Scouts at times at meetings. When being corrected, after one adults talks, the rest are just repeating what the first one said, wasting time to get what needs to be done, done. It undermines Scout’s authority and responsibility Some Scouts don’t listen to the older Scouts as a result. Some Scouts don’t worry about details because the adults will intervene and do it for them. Scouts will not ask their PLs or SPL, but go directly to adults. They cannot learn for themselves with adults interfering. Some other Scouts feel that the adults do not trust them/respect them to get do what they are supposed to on their own. Why bother trying? OBSERVATION: Meeting room is loud and distracting, adults adding to it. Interference on camp outs is a problem. They get conflicting directions from different adults. If a Scout tells them to do something, and an adult tell them something different, they will automatically do what the adult wants without explaining to the adult why they are doing what they are doing or supposed to be doing. An example would be NSP and KP this Sunday. Repeat of undermining authority and responsibility above. Some Scouts feel they are being blamed for things they are not responsible for. OBSERVATION: Kids these days are so use to adults telling them exactly what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, that they cannot think for themselves. And they will listen to adults over other kids any day. Example Older Scout Patrol and KP. Recommendations Only two adults in the meeting room: SM and 1 other. Scouts want Mr. _____ or Mr. ____ ( and no they don't want me 'cause I talk too much ) Others will be invited to teach classes or make announcements as needed. Adults to interact with the SPL on the camp outs. Limits the conflicting directions. Allows the PLC more authority and responsibility. Give the PLC and a few other Scouts the authority and responsibility to grow themselves and the troop. Have more PLC meetings, preferably monthly. Adults go through the SPL to make suggestions and recommendations to improve. Always have the youth running stuff and having ownership. Older Scouts were ticked off with the new patrol set ups UNTIL they learned the PLC decided on a completely random method of selection and not adult appointed. Youth teaching as much as possible. Get PLC members and select others the ability to sign off on Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class advancement. Shows trust to the older Scouts. Gives responsibility to the older Scouts Shows younger Scouts that the PLC is in charge and need to be listened to Can inspire and motivate Scouts to advance. Improves discipline Keeps older Scouts’ skills up to speed and even improve, with continued practice. Any other suggestions?

Update from the weekend. Friday was a mix of adult led/ learn from your mistakes. We have some folks going backpacking. First shakedown and it was an expereince for all, including me. Long story short, unless you asked for advice and help, you didn't get it. However the person to ask help from was me and the other adult, more so the other adult, becasue we were the ones with experience. He did a class on collecting water and filtration. But again it was learning from your mistakes. One thing Iearned was don't use an S 'biner for your bear bag unless you got a Chevy Suburban to climb on Saturday evening after the rest of the troop showed up got interesting. One leader refused to leave the NSP alone until "someone who has cooked on coals and a grill supervises them" showed up.n Thankfully their troop guide has done that, and I asked him to keep an eye on them to get the other leader away. IT WORKED! had some issues with KP, but overall OK. Sunday however was horrible. Long story short it took 3+ hours for the NSP and older Scout patrol to do KP. Why did it take so long? IMHO adult interference. Older Scout patrol was finished with KP, when they saw that the adults had some left overs. We made a deal, they could have some if they wash the knife, spoon, and spatula "after the [NSP] is finished with KP so you don't have to start another batch of water." That was adult interference #1 Some of the new scouts were having challenges getting their gear packed before breakfast. One in particular was not finished in a timely manner that his dad, who is a leader in the troop, thought, and dad told him "AFTER BREAKFAST PACK YOU BAG AND TAKE DOWN YOUR TENT!" (caps in this case is shouting). This kid had KP duty, BUT dutifully followed dad/ ASM's instructions. I am going to assume that his KP buddy, who was in the same tent and same situation, heard ASM's instructions, and when he finished eating, went to take care of his gear and the tent. Guess what didn't get done until until after the gear was packed, tent dried and packed, and water was cold. Eventually it was realized by other adults that the KP wasn't getting done, so other adults get involved.It was not a good thing. Lots of "scolding" especially by a new ASM just crossed over from Webelos, who has caused some issues with allof the patrols, but especially the older Scouts, who now despise him. Does the new ASM have some valid points, yes. BUT he's going about it as if they were Cub Scouts. At some point later, I ask the older scouts what happened with KP. The comment was, " I was told to do it after the [NSP] so iwas waiting for them to finish, before doing it." adult interference #2, giving them specific instructions and not letting htem think for themselves." Adult Mistake #3 is something that occurred to me last nite/ early this morning. The Scouts know they are suppose to do KP immediately after a meal. But when any adult, but especially their dad, tell them to do something, they will forget everything else, not try to talk to the adult about what they are suppose to be doing, i.e. eating brakfast, doing KP, etc, but immediately do whatthe aduolt tells them. I honestly believe that If I hadn't asked if the Scout had breakfast yet, he would not have had any. The youth in various patrols have commented on adult interference and contradictory instructions, and told some of use they only want 1 adult interacting with them, and it isn't the SM. It's going to be an interesting leader's meeting tonite, because some of the adults are not happy that the Scouts want us out of their hair. Me personally I want to sit back and drink my coffee saying, "Ask your PL."