Eagle94-A1

Since moving back to this area, I've not been involved in the community outside of Scouting. Mother-in-law's health issues have basically caused my family life to revolve around her. It's only been the last 24 months that things have changed. Heck I wouldn't even consider taking on a primary ASM spot, let alone SM, with her health issues. With the exception of restarting the troop that folded, I wouldn't even know who to make the first phone call and set up a meeting. Thinking about it, there is another possible location. We had a pack just start, but it quickly shut down.

Sorry, for whatever reason I thought it was joining and starting. The only organization I would feel comfortable cold calling about starting a new troop would be my church, adn there would be some obstacles, one minor, the other major. Minor obstacle is facilities. The church is doing a heck of a lot of ministry work, especially with the migrant worker community, that the facilties are in use all the time. In fact they just expanded by buying a 2 story house across the street and they are still running out of room. The major obstacle is societal in my neck of the woods: anti-Catholic bias. Long story short, when I was a DE, I had a new pack looking to find a CO. When I told the folks about the Catholic Church, I was cursed out by the prospective CM, lost 75% of the Cubs, and all of the leaders save 1.Pack folded in a year. Now there is a place I have been thinking about since rereading the question that had a pack and troop that folded. I know the CO still has the bulk of the gear, it's in use by the Girl Scouts, I have a history with the CO since I was the DE that started the pack and troop, and some of the lay leaders of the church wer efolks I recruited as Scout leaders when their kids were in the program. It's the same CO that the naysayer was CM and an ASM at last year.

Good question. 1 troop is worse off than the one I'm in. At least this one camps once a month, the one worse than mine doesn't. 1 troop has "maxed out" and is no longer accepting anyone. Plus there is some "history," and I personally may not be welcome. Long story short, right before I became a DE, their SM had his membership revoked. While I was the DE, the former SM went to trial and was reinstated by the courts until he lost the case. While I had absolutely nothing to do with the situation, heck I wasn't even told he was reinstated while the court case went on until I saw him at RT and called my SE about what to do, I was the "face" of the council at the time, and there is a lot of animosity about the decision. 10 years after the court case, folks at the CO still remember that I was the DE when the troop's SM had his membership revoked.. 2 troops are out of our league price wise. Sorry I cannot afford a $200 ski weekend or $400 summer camp every year. Espeically since middle son will be a Boy Scout January 1. 1 troop I know little about, except they are in trouble. We had one of their boys transfer to us and another is looking to. and1 troop I am looking at, but it would be a drive. BUT the #1 reason why I have not looked at other troops is because my son is happy with this one at the moment. His new patrol has one of his old CS den mates in the patrol, and one of the friends he made in the NSP is also in it. Plus I think his patrol will be OK since the level-headed ASM is working with them.

IMHO, the challenge is that me and the naysayer see the problem, but have two diametrically opposed views as to the solution. I want the youth in charge, having more authority and having responsibility. Basically solving it on the production line. Naysayer wants to fix it prior to SMCs and BORs with adults reviewing the skills and saying whether the Scout is ready for the SMC and BOR or not. basically solving the problem at the end of the production. And naysayer essentially wants it his way or the highway. There was some conflict over this, basically between me and him, and its ongoing. And yes it is affecting the Scouts. One ASM, the one described as levelheaded above, told the me the conflict IS starting to affect the Scouts, and he is just waiting for his son to get fed up with the troop so he can find one closer to the son's house. And I think there may be another issue that is affecting this. Apparently he's upset about one of his former Cubs BOR that I sat in on. Long story short I asked the Scout about his performance as a PL, what he could do better next time, and more importantly that "once you wear the green bars, you are a leader in the troop whether you continue to wear them or not. It will be expected that you step up and help out" as my old SPL once told me. Apparently naysayer didn't like that I asked about his performance as a PL since it was not required for advancement, and the SM had discusses the matter a 2 weeks earlier and again at the SMC that nite Which is ironic because the naysayer is all about retesting and proving oneself regarding skills, yet ask some questions about performance as a PL is a problem. On a different note. It was announced last night that the troop will use NSPs for six months when the Webelos come aboard in December. Naysayer is thinking we get 16 of the 24, and 8 will drop by summer camp, keeping 8. If middle son's den comes aboard as 6-9 Scouts, and that is possible, then I will raise hell if anyone but me is assigned to them as their ASM. The Webelos do NOT need to be treated as Webelos IIIs. My son's den rocked at the Webeloree, actually carrying the weight of the combine Webelos 1 and 2 dens, and this past weekend they did a stellar job camping. The Webelos did the cooking with minimal assistance, and I stress MINIMAL assistance from the adults. The Webelos needed a few reminders about KP at meals, but overall they did a stellar job. In fact they did better than older son's NSP on the last camp out, and most of them have been Boy Scouts for a year now! I am not going to let Naysayer, or any adult-led oriented ASM, screw up that group. yes I still consider them "MY SCOUTS."

Yes, a hike and 3 days at summer camp without the naysayer. Agree 110%. Sad thing is the naysayer's younger son. Kid has so much potential, but is under dad's thumb, even when dad is not suppose to be working with him as son will search out dad. Thank you for the encouragement I need it. very frustrating at times. The entrenchment is what I'm fighting to prevent. Entire reason I switched from Cubs to the troop: to help get them going. More later.

Clarification with 'stuck around older Scouts." I was not assigned a patrol. I am working with the older guys because I'm the second leader on the prep backpacking trip in 2 weeks. Also since 1 of their ASMs is on call alot and can leave at the drop of a hat, I'll be helping with them. Upon reflection it may be a good thing I'm not assigned to a patrol. I'm against the Webelos III format it's turning into, and I can work with the older scouts.

Interesting night. Where to begin. I admit I see the issues some of the leaders are complaining about: lack of skills. My thought process is to get the Scouts to teach the skills themselves or using the skills on camp outs vs. skill review nights or verification check offs before SMC or BORs. So I came up with an idea: Intra-Patrol Olympics. Yes the youth need to say yes or no to it, but the Olympics would A) learn/refresh/ review skills B) competition would rrevive patrol spirit and teamwork in the new patrols, and C) give the adults a chance to see what the Scouts really know and feeling more confident in allowing the Scouts to sign off on advancement and running things. It could be done over a month and have some fun doing it. The biggest naysayer won't even listen to the proposal. " I'm done" and walks away. I admit it was disturbing. SM discusses what was discussed at the leader's meeting Saturday nite with the Scouts, i.e. what was discussed above, and what was going to happen. Older Scout patrol will essentially remain, and will be doing their own thing. Other two patrols will be redistributed so that a mix of experience will result. Here is where it gets interesting. SPL had to be one of the older Scouts. Now I admit I like First Class and above AND time as a PL in order to be SPL. I firmly beleive you got to have experience facing the problems a PL has in order to help mentor a PL, and one of the SPL's jobs is counseling the PLs. So I'm good with that. But since the bulk of the older Scouts are going on the AT, the ASPL had to be ELECTED (emphasis) from one of the Scouts not going on the AT. OK not purely patrol method with the SPL appointing his ASPL, but I can see the reasoning, the Scouts see the reasoning and are cool with it. Question was raised if the older Scouts would have to listen to the younger ASPL, and were told they were voting for the ASPL, so yes they would have to listen to him in the absence of the SPL. When the older Scouts realized they were voting for ASPL instead of appointing, they were good with that. And the ASPL elected is a good one IMHO. While not officially a PL, he was a de facto PL because his PL never showed up to a lot of stuff, and he held the patrol together. 2 ASMs were assigned to work with each patrol. 1 patrol's ASMs I have concerns about. The Naysayer is starting to influence another, ASM, so I have some concerns. But the other patrol has one ASM with a steady head on his shoulders and i think will moderate the other ASM. OK the steady headed ASM is a little more hands on than some may like or that I'm used to, but the way he does it is really good; it's more like a big brother. Which is how BP describes the SM's role. Patrol Elections were then done in different rooms as well as coming up with flags, yells, etc. I stuck around with the older Scouts because I'm assigned to them at teh moment. My big push was telling them details about next week, and that 50 miles on the AT is not off the table IF they are willing to come up with a training regimen between now and the trip.

Regarding the scouting out a trail in advance, MEA CULPA, as well as a few other leaders as well. I was taught, not only in Scouts but also with another youth organization I worked for, that you not only want to use the maps, but you want someone who has been on the trail or river before. When I was in Canada, we had local Scouts serving as guides. When I did the river expedition for my job, the trainers had all done that stretch of the river before. Yep we planned it and created extraction points, etc. when things DID hit the fan, it was nice to know that the trainers new EXACTLY where they were on the river, and were an extraction point was. Yes our emergency had to have a medevac, and he nearly didn't make it. Our backpacking guru has a similar story, as well as another ASM. As for being reckless, I don't think so. You know your Scouts, and have been prepping. We have had minimal prepping, and we are safety paranoid. Especially with my family's history of me getting injured on a camp out, and the wife pulling out a body from the lake and doing CPR. Waiting out the biggest naysayer IMHO will be a challenge as he is a Scouting addict like me, plus he is the ASM who is a former youth in the troop. It seems as if he doesn't have the patience to let them screw up, and learn from their mistakes. Heck I found out that his son, who's been a CS and in the troop a year, doesn't know how to put up one of the tents! Apparently other Scouts and/or dad has been doing it for him!

"There not ready for that." is the excuse I'm told. My plan B is to focus on which ever patrol I'm assigned to or my son's patrol, or both. There may be a lot of patrol camp outs being planned. Sad thing is this, my middle Son's Webelos Den is performing better than some of the patrols.

Some troops still use the Service Patrol and Program Patrol. Service Patrol is responsible for set up and cleanup of the meetings. Program Patrol is responsible for running program including getting needed equipment and instructors.

Maybe I'm the "troublemaker." They do a leader's meeting when I have to do BORs. Then this leaders' meeting at camp when 1 leader is scouting out a new trail for the AT folks since we cannot do the original trail due to lack of permits, and I'm with the Cub Scouts in Cub World. Am I paranoid, or am I paranoid enough? Seriously though. this statement says it all IMHO "lack of common vision and unified leadership."

Well the advancement situation I've discussed in the other thread has lead to some "challenges." That, something our older scouts commented on, and our schedule for the next four months has caused the troop's adults to take two steps back. Yep they had a meeting last nite while I was campign with Cubs Scouts, and one of the leaders doign the AT was not there,. Older Scouts. Our older Scouts are not happy with being split up but understand. They like that they will have a prep trip away from the rest of the troop, and time on the AT. This weekend, they could not compete since they didn't have enough members of the patrol attend to compete. So thew SPL decided to split them into the two patrols. Fair enough. SPL made the call. But apprarently they made teh comment that they want to compete as a patrol at the district camporee in 6 months. Schedule. Our troop's planning and follow through sucks. Long story short, the troop planned to go to Philmont, but didn't plan times to do prep trips. One ASM not going to Philmont decided they needed a prep trip and took the planning of it on his own to helpthe Scouts out. WELL Philmont is cancelled, and he is trying to organize a AT trip, but getting everyone together fro practice is a pain. But this month 1/2 ther troop is doign a prep trip and 1/2 is going on a standard campout. next month is summercamp, and July is AT and a smaller weekend trip. Now August was suppose to be a canoeing campout, but apparently the section of the river selected is going ot be tough. The adults planning it are saying only abotu 1/2 to 1/3 of the troop will probably qualify skills wise to make the trip,essentially the backpacking group, and the rest will have to do something on their own..Sept. is camporee prep, and since the older scoutys want to compaete one last time, Plan B, put together by the PLC with some adult influence is going to be scrapped. So what's going to happen now? All the older Scouts goign on teh AT will be in one patrol so they can do their own thing to prep for the AT on meeting nites. OK cool with that. Everyone not going on the AT will be divided into two patrols. How they do the division remains to be seen and I have muy concerns. SPL will be elected from the AT group since that is the most experienced Scouts adn teh ASPL will be selected from thoss not going on the AT. WAIT A MINUTE , WHAT?!?!?!?!?!!?!?! Also, I was told that my estimate of 13- 24 Scouts is way off, since we usually only get 1/3 of the available new Scouts, so they will be placed in a NSP for 6 months until they can get their act together and join a standard patrol. WHAT?!?!?!?! THE CURRENT NSP HAS MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN IN OVER A YEAR ALREADY?!?!?!?! And to make sure that what happened advancement wise does't happen again, the adults are proposina adding a step in which the Scout shave to do a skills nite with the scouts to prove they are ready for the SMC and BOR WHY ARE WE ADDING STEPS???? WHY CAN WE NOT LET THE SCOUTS TRAIN THEM AND TRUST THE SCOUTS TO SIGN OFF WHEN THE "STUDENT SCOUTS" DEMONSTRATE MASTERY OF THE SKILLS??? vENT OFF

Prior to me joining, he had 1 ASM who doubled as CM, and whose job severely restricted when the troop could camp. and a 2nd ASM who was also the IH, so he was limited as to when he could camp. When i joined the troop he got another dad in as ASM, but can only come every other week due to the custody situation, and myself as a MC. Over the past year, we got me switched over to ASM, plus 3 more ASMs and an MC. 1 ASM never had Boy Scout experience, but a lot of outdoor KSAs. He's developing nicely. One ASM just crossed over from Webelos in Dec., and has no prior Boy Scout experience. He freaked out when I said the Scouts should sign off on advancement. And the one ASMwho has a lot of Boy Scout expereince, and was in the troop as a youth, has been some of the problems. The MC needs more seasoning. Knows the theories and can see where I'm coming from, but doesn't think the scouts are quite ready for it YET, except for a few of the older ones. As for trusting the ASMs enough to step down, that may be part of it. But I also know part of it is the CO. I had a chat with the COR/CC, and he told me point blank that they want someone who is a member of the church as SM because they do view it as an outreach ministry. Since only 1 ASM is a member, it does limit the selection, and his job is crazy. He's already been called away from meetings and camp outs. According ot the GtA, the SM is responsible for who can and cannot sign off on advancement. So every troop does things differently. My troop and another have the SM and other adults only sign off. Some troops in the area allows the boy to sign on one side of the book saying they have seen the scout doe the skill, but the adults sign off on official side of the book. Ansd some unuits have the youth sign off. Game plan is by June We will have the PLC members and a few others up to speed so they cna sign off. I'm partial to letting youth sign off, but I also remember when youth coudl sit on BORs. KDD, give you some background. SM is a long time Scouter, 50+ years, who was SM when the troop died. He singlehandedly resurrected the troop, and for 4 year was THE force behind the troop, being a one man show. Part of that was folks who helped out also were involved inthe cub scout pack. for the first 4 years, they averaged 8-12 Scouts, and then doubled when my son joined, and added another patrol a year after that. We can expect anywhere from 12-23 new Scouts from 2 different packs come Decemebr. We have has some issues for the past year with our NSP, and we are workignon getting those corrected. Troop leaders are also concerned with the SM health as he does have medical conditions requiring oxygen, and he was hospitalized twice in 2015.

Nuff said.

Forgot to add, I really think this debacle is another sign that the SM needs to step back and let others do more of the work. I know we have an ASM in charge of advancement now, and I'm working on the paperwork side of things. His health concerns all of us. He has his good days, and his bad ones. But I think Scouting is taking more out of him. Problem is he's a Scouting Addict. When he was in the hospital last year, he was upset he was missing a meeting. Wife tells me that will be me in 30+ years.

Some additional info. 1) No, mom is not a registered leader. Mom is a drop off and pick up, and even then sometime it's grandma that is doing the dropping off and picking up. I don't think I even saw her at the Court of Honor. 2) Because of the reorganization in the troop, I didn't want to take away any of the new youth leaders from their new patrols to deal with this problem that the adults caused 3) One of the ideas I wrote in the original post came from his TG. Yep, son wanted to "revoke his rank," especially since he couldn't remember who signed off on the requirements until the 3rd time he was asked, and the SM added "...was it your mother?" That's when he admitted mom signed off. When I told my son we could not do that, it was then "treat him like a Tenderfoot and make him do everything all over." 4) We have no idea where the Scout is moving too, let alone what troop he's going too. All we know is the mom is remarrying and they are moving to the outer banks as soon as school is over. Trust me we do not want to dump the problem on anyone. Heck we are embarrassed it happened.

So, as I've posted in another thread, we have an issue with a Scout completing a BOR for two ranks that were signed off by mom. Mom's initials were not discovered until after both the SMC and BOR were done, when the ASM who was just assigned to do the advancement record keeping was updating the records. What are some ideas to make sure this Scout actually does what mom signed off for so he can actually earn the rank? Some additional info. 1) Troop is in the process of preventing this in the future. Specifically YOUTH will be signing off on the S-T-2-1 ranks, records reviewed and verified before the BOR, following the current GtA guidelines instead of older ones, etc 2) This Scout will be with us for about another month, then is moving to a new town, and a new troop. So we have about a month to get him up to speed. 3) Attendance at meetings and camp outs is very sporadic due to a custody situation. He will be missing the camp out this weekend and the one in May. Plus I don't know what meetings he will be at this month, if any (yes he has gone 4 weeks without anyone knowing what's up, and that was when his TG called to check up on him) So What are your ideas? One idea is when the rest of the troop is electing the SPL and PLs, he goes off with 2 adults and works on the requirements mom signed off on. Another idea is that when they do break out sessions, he goes with the the T-2-1 Scouts and works on the requirements mom signed off on. Both ideas have pros and cons. Thanks in advance.

That's the funny thing. The TG was essentially appointed by adults, and had a good performance in front of us. Since the new Scouts have always been dictated to by parents, teachers, coaches, den leaders, ad nauseum, when the TG started telling them what to do, they did it unquestionably. And when it came time for elections, they voted him PL without opposition. THE KIDS THESE DAYS HAVE NOT BEEN TRAINED TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES! (Caps for emphasis, OK maybe a little bit of raising my hands and screaming in frustration at today's youth. ) Problems were not discovered until NSP members started having BORs. When I started talking to the older Scouts about the situation, they elaborated some of the challenges they had with him. They were not happy to have him rejoin their patrol, but they "can handle him, no problem." And agree no TG is better than a bad TG. My son's NSP had an absentee TG, and they learned fast. The bad TG caused problems even after his term as TG and PL with the NSP. All, Regarding believing in the Scouts, this is very important. You got to have faith in them to do things. Will they mess up on occasion? Yes because for some this is their first time taking charge. Will they come up with different ways to do things? Yep you can learn a thing or two as well. But most importantly IF YOU TRUST THEM AND GIVE THEM A HIGH LEVEL OF EXPECTATION, THEY WILL PERFORM!

Gotta agree with Stosh's comment about boys never making decisions. I see it all the time, even with the college age, and in a few cases graduate school age, kids. IF you do decide to use New Scout Patrols, NSPs, make sure you do not have a "dictator" as a Troop Guide. I think ne of the reasons why the NSP in my troop is so far behind is that they had a "dictator" first as TG, then as PL when they elected him. Instead of building consensus, working as a team, etc he arbitarily came up with menus, duty rosters, assigned shopping, etc. He never let them work it out. The when my son becomes their NSP, they are OK initially when he "suggests" things, but when he put responsibility on the PL, total failure.

Everyone has said what I would. But this one line says it best IMHO: "I have never seen an adult-managed solution surpass a scout managed solution." underlining bold and larger font are for emphasis. As you can read in other theads, my troop is adult lead, and it has problems. So much so that we are completely reorganizing the troop on Monday. IMHO 99.99999% of those problems are the result of adult interference, and I will put myself in the problem category too. While I may not agree 100% with what is going on regarding the changes, I do believe it's a big step in the right direction, and can lead to the changes I want to see occur. The issue as I see it is getting the naysayers aboard to Scout run. Another troop is in worse shape than mine. they are completely adult led, loosing members, and are slowly dying. All because the SM won't give responsibility and authority to the Scouts.

Yes, it's not what I wanted, youth signing off on S-T-2-1 with no reservation, nor what several of the other adults wanted, adults only signing off. But is a definate step int he right direction. I can understand why training the youth would be important. I remember the first time I was given the authority to sign off on advancement, and IT BLEW MY MIND! (emphasis). I asked my SPL for some help, and got it. But it wasn't a big deal with the troop because Scouts routinely signed off on stuff. Plus one leader doesn't want a repeat of his days in Scouting, when the authority to sign off was abused by the Scouts, if his stories are to be believed. Since this will be a new concept for the Scouts, since we do not want it to be "give me's", and since we do not want the authority to be abused, I'm good with training them first before singing off. In fact I think the training should be about 15 minutes or less. As for showing proficiency before signing off, I'm good with it because the Scouts should have 'mastered the skill." And just because they cannot do the skill when asked, doens't mean they can never teach the skill. Let them practice and work on it. I'll give you an example 2 years ago we did first aid at the lock in. Since I was put in charge of it, I assigned Scouts to teach the various skills that corresponded to their rank. My expectation was they have the rank, they can do the skill, they can teach it. Did they need to go over and review, yes. Did I have to teach some of the changes in first aid, yes. did they take it seriously and do a good job. Yes they did. As for signing off on camp outs, the rationale for that is because the skills they will be learning should correspond to the camp out that month. Having the PLs sign off on the advancement after seeing them use the skills outside of a meeting would shoe they truly mastered the skill.

Actually 1 SMC and BOR can be done for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. That's because there are no longer time requirements between S-T-2-1 as they were prior to 1989. As for SMCs, the SMis not retesting them, but having a conversation about goals, experiences, etc. Agree, PLs are NOT doing their job IMHO. Currently only adults are authorized to sign off on rank. That will be changing shortly. I pushed for the PLS to have that authority, and with some compromise, it's going to happen in the next month. Compromise is that the Scout signing off has to show competency in the skill being taught and signed off. ALSO whatever skills being taught won't be signed off until used on a camp out. I'm good with that. SM is overwhelmed. He is dividing up the duties among the SMs now. One ASM is handling advancement records. As for the BOR, the commitee is A) not that active and B) really need to get some BOR training. The folks involved are used to old school retesting, with a box of supplies for the Scouts to use during the BOR to demonstrate the skills. They are having some challenges with how they are suppose to be done today. That's going to be a challenge. If he was staying in out troop, we would have him redo everything Mom signed off on. However he will be leaving at the end of the school year. So we will be having him do as much as possible prior to leaving. But the records have been submitted. Part of the issues IMHO is lack of planning. SMCs were done just prior to the BORs. AND there was also a Leader's meeting that the Sm was preparing for. SM has too many irons in the fire.

WELL another reason appeared tonite to give me another reason why the PLC and a few other Scouts should be able to sign off on the S-T-2-1 requirements instead of adults: we had a Scout who had a BOR for Second and First Class last week, who had his mom sign off on requirements, and not one of the adult leaders. SM glanced over to see signatures, had a conference, and passed him along to the BOR. Was able to pass the 2 BORs. It was only after the BOR when the SM went to update the troop records was it caught that mom was signing off. Took about 20 minutes of asking adults, asking the Scout 2 times, and him not remembering, when SM decided to check mom's signature onteh application. Yep, she was signing off. This is the mom who drops off and goes. Never attends any events, never attends any parents' meeting, etc. And when we did meet with her to discuss an issue we had with her son, it wasn't his fault, butthe other scout's and the medication he's on.

Agree about the Scouts; I bet their will be some discussion about that tomorrow when they get together. But what I really hope is that the adults learn their #1. I have hope because we did have a meeting, and change to a more Scout led troop is in progress. Regarding shopping. Way I was taught way back when was when you come up with a shopping list, you put down an estimate of the price next to the item to get a more accurate cost Now those who have actually shopped for food can do a pretty good estimate of the prices. Unfortunately we do have some Scouts who haven't: mom or grandma have shopped for them. One trick I learned to keep accurate prices was keep the receipts and look it up:) Another trick I taught my son and he taught others, go to "the middle of the road grocery store" i.e one that doesn't have the highest prices, nor the lowest ones, get a good list, then shop where the sales are. One Scout actually was $30 under budget because he not only went where the sales were, but also clipped coupons. Mom and dad taught him how to shop, and all dad did was drive to the store! Since the patrols are disbanding, one thing the two patrols with kitties decided to do was spend their kitty money. Both patrols paid for their patrol members to go to camporee.So right now there is only $1 left in any of the kitties. New patrols will start fresh.