Eagle94-A1

Resolving this is a challenge as Gunship, for all practical purposes refuses to talk to me now. I've tried, heck I see where he is coming from and understand his thoughts. BUT IT AINT SCOUTING (emphasis). And when I came up with ways to do what he wants IN A SCOUTING MANNER ( again emphasis) he told me he can't take it anymore, and walked away. Since that incident. he has said maybe 10 words to me. As for becoming SM, several months ago, while I had my wing clipped , I talked to the ASM who at one time was suppose to take over the troop, and the SM. Neither one had a problem with me becoming SM. It was when I talked to the CC/COR that it was brought to my attention that the CO wants a member as SM. They view the troop as an outreach ministry, and I understand. The CO has been extremely supportive of the troop. But even the CC/COR is hesitant to remove the SM. They have a long history together.

@@desertrat77 said it in another thread on TGs in a mixed aged patrol thread: "Saw this dynamic in the military--squadrons with two first sergeants had more issues than those with one. Best to just let one go-getter take on the extra duties than have the confusion and overlap of having two." And that seems to be the problem, Gunship and I. SM isn't doing everything he's suppose to, and both of use, as well as others, are picking up the slack. Problem is we both have two opposed methods to achieving the same objective. And the other leaders are in the crossfire.

Back in the dark ages before NSPs and Troop Guides, the PL was responsible for getting his people up to speed. In my troop, the PL assigned someone to buddy with and learning was one-on-one. PL was the one to look out for his guys. Then in August 1989, NSPs came out and TGs. IMHO they combined the duties of a SPL and an Instructor so that the brand new, inexperienced, just crossed over to Boy Scouts PL would have someone to work with 24/7. I gotta agree with Stosh, if they are mixed aged patrols, there is no need for a guide. PL can handle it.

That's the irony of the situation. You have 2 former district training chairs, me and the SM. Plus I did BA 22 and staffed JLT, so I know what is supposed to be done. Hence the balancing act. I'm trying to guide an mentor the Scouts without stepping on the toes of the SM. But I'm also trying to not tell the SPL what to do and how to do it, but give him advice and suggestions. As for the SPL, he did ILST. Me personally I do not think it's goo training. In my humble opinion, that's the problem. We give them the training, but then do not follow through with mentoring and advising. Then when things go wrong, the adults say the Scouts aren't ready to lead, and take the experience away. And again, I haven't been to the last two leaders meeting since they came about last minute. However when the results of those meetings came about, I went full bore on the patrol method. Resistance is coming from one leader who is trained, and he is influencing some of the others. On a positive note, Son is getting his job done. I commented on how to implement real change, he needs to be SPL again. I think he is considering it. Hopefully I will be cleared to go to summer camp for the first 3 days. I remember in BA22 the model PLC meeting with the whole troop in attendance as observers. I'm really thinking of doing that on Sunday between check in and Sunday dinner.

Well the entire situation at the moment is so frustrating, I believe it is now causing the health issues I'm having. I could be wrong on that, and will await the results of the tests when they come in. SPL has been in charge for a month, but the closest to anyone helping him is me suggesting things to do. No PLC has been conducted, and he has not planned a meeting yet. Adults have done it. And I admit I'm just as guilty as I suggested to the SPL a topic and choices of Scouts to do it. Then I had to help that Scout out a bit. Prior to that it was the SM lecturing, and last week's meeting was essentially the venture patrol's topic, but done with the entire troop. SPL didn't have any plans for tomorrow made until my son, the troop QM asked if he could have the two regular patrols inventory their patrol boxes since there are no records of who has what. Again, I don't want to step on toes, and I do not want to tell the SPL what to do and how to do it. But this is driving me nuts.

Thanks. I've backed off some from council level stuff, focusing on the unit and keeping the district together. Comment one council camping committee member told me when I asked about this around circa 2010 was "Cubs don't need to camp."

As RichardB stated, it's been out since May 1st of last year, but there was not a lot of fanfare about it until recently. I got a heads up from a friend because I made comments on how Cubs won't be able to advance unless they go council events, and not every council offers aquatic events. On a personal note, while I agree with what RichardB says about the various certs needed to conduct aquatic activities, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND SOMEONE IN YOUR UNIT TAKING BSA'S TWO AQUATIC SUPERVISION COURSES! Those two courses are a lot more hands on and really helped. Lifeguard cert is good for pools, but not boating activities anymore. @@RichardB, what happens if your council does not have a list of approved Cub camping locations? If they sign off on the tour planner, I', assuming they approve of the location. Not trying to be a pain, but that is a serious question I have.

Yes, selecting a new SM is a trying process. Especially when the SM is a long time Scouter who has the respect of everyone, but just doesn't have the health to be as active as he wants.

The leaders say they believe in the patrol method. But they also say the Scouts are not ready yet to take charge. CO also wants one of their members as SM. Current SM's health is poor, and he really needs to step down. Only 1 other leader is a member, and I am hoping he gets appointed in the near future. I helped train him, and he was in a youth led unit growing up.

Agree with you regarding training and especially with ILS-T. Troop did it in January 2015 and all SPLs since were in attendance at it. It does not really prepare them for the office. I've asked someone with an extensive training background to add to the ILS-T format from the leadership courses he took and taught. But maybe the old Troop Leader Training should be considered. I know there is talk of sending folks to NYLT in 2017 since 2016 is full. I think the frustration with some of the adults is the lack of patience. At times I believe that the adults want adult level results from the Scouts, and when they do not meet adult level expectation, "they are not ready" Let's face it, It takes time to grow leaders. They will screw up. That's part of the learning process. And by screwing up, I mean minor stuff like forgetting what a thwart is, or confusing starboard and port. Stuf that if they have time to prepare and do over and over, the y will be able to pull a session on little to no notice. An aside to training, I also think the PLC needs to meet on a regular basis to plan and organize things. Also that gives the SPL time to work with the SM. That's the thing, the youth have been Explained and Demonstrated to, but instead of being Guided while doing, or teaching something, when they make mistakes they are told they can't do it and are not Enabled. Best example would be a meeting that I mentioned in post #1 Our entire Venture patrol, which had been doing canoeing for multiple years and know the stuff, sat bored stiff, some sneaking onto their phones, because it was material they knew. OK may not be to the mastery of the adult who has been doing canoeing 60+ years, but they knew enough to teach the younger Scouts. Compare that to the meeting my oldest ran, and I helped him with. He did the bulk of the work, I just answered questions he didn't know and said a few hints I've learnt over the years. Basically enough to keep the other adults out of the way. Agree, I think once I leave camp, if I even make it to camp , things will revert to adult lead and controlled. Did I mention that Da New Guy wants the Scouts to report to an adult so that an adult can go with them to the health lodge for easy to resolve matters like removing a tick? As for summer camp, I wish there was one nearby that would allow the Patrol Method. In my neck of the woods, they are like the ones you describe. I haven't been to the one we are going to since I last staffed it 17 years ago. But from the program guide and admin stuff, I have a bad feeling it's a MB factory.

Well "Patrols" is one of the methods of Scouting that the CO agrees to implement. The challenge as I see it is that adults do not think they are ready to take charge. Question is this: HOW DO THEY GET READY TO TAKE CHARGE IF THE ADULTS DO EVERYTHING FOR THEM? (emphasis, not shouting) I'll give you an example from the part of the meeting I was at. An adult was going over land nav, trip planning, and backpacking meal planning. That leader was short, to the point, and really asked questions about how the Scouts would do XYZ. While I think an older Scout could have done that, since the plan with that leader was to do some outdoor prep with the Venture patrol and it was raining, the Adult went to plan B for the Venture patrol, and someone thought it would be good for the entire troop to go over. I'm hoping it was the SPL, but have a feeling it was the SM. But after the adult finished, another adult, Da New Guy takes over and reviews what they just learned, going over the allotted time. Since the ASPL will be in charge at summer camp ( SPL is doing AT instead) I asked him to review the information about summer camp. While he's going over the information, Da New Guy starts interjecting into the conversation saying the stuff like "you'll report to the adults for..." At one point talking about equipment and tents, I jumped in before he could and asked the Scouts "You do you report to if their is a problem with your tent or equipment?" When some replied "The Adults." I said "No, your patrol leader as he's in charge of you guys. He'll tell the SPL and the SPL will fix the problem." Da New Guy has a lot to unlearn. He crossed over to Boy Scouts in December. Hopefully he can get trained since he is staying the entire week. On a tangent. #1 the two experienced adults regarding summer camp will only be there part of the week, and one is Gunship for 2 days. I am currently scheduled to stay 4 days, AND THAT MAY BE CHANGING (emphasis). Since my physical in early May, I've had some health issues come up. The issue is serious enough to get me an immediate doctor's appointment (as in I called the doctor's office and they said "COME IN NOW!" (EXTREMELY strong emphasis), and I now have 3 tests scheduled for next week, and a follow up appointment 2 days before I am scheduled to leave for camp, "to make sure you can really go to camp." I really am uncomfortable with having Da New Guy there with no experience as an adult leader at summer camp ( I think he has some youth experience way back in the day), and the other full week adult with limited experience at camp (3 days last year). I am hoping and praying that i will be able to go so I can set the tone for them the first 3 days at camp that I'm there. 2) talked to the SPL and ASPL last nite, suggested they hold a PLC meeting immediately after the day trip next week, so that they can come up with a written plan for the meetings so that the adults won't be jumping in and taking over. They both agreed.

So, I feel like a highwire act again in more ways than one. New SPL and PLC have not met yet. 2 meetings ago, it was the most boring meeting as the SM lectured on the parts of a canoe. Plus there was no game time or patrol time: Opening, 1:20 of pure lecture, and Closing. YAWN. Several days after the meeting, I asked the SPL what his plans were and he didn't have any. I gave some suggestions on topic and presenter, but the presenter I suggested was out of town too. So Oldest gave a presentation on packing a pack for a river trip. OK it was a last minute preparation, and he did OK. There were some questions he didn't know, and I could see the SM and Gunship ready to take over. Instead, I took over. I wanted to make sure the ASPL running the show had a chance to do things other than hear a lecture and "war stories" Because we leave in 2 weeks for summer camp and the leader for the AT trek needs some time with the AT crew, I essentially told the SPL what this upcoming meeting will be about: splitting into 2 groups to go over summer camp and the AT. I sent the ASPL the summer camp info since he will be the SPL that week as the true SPL is going on the AT. I suggested to the SPL that he gets together with his PLC in the next two weeks and come up with plans. I also suggested that he go ahead and select his troop level officers before the SM picks them for him. On one hand I feel like I'm telling the SPL what to do, how to do it, etc AND DO NOT LIKE IT ONE BIT (emphasis). On the other hand, I see one confused Scout who did ask for some help on the AT prep trip we did, and am trying to advise and mentor. That's one balancing act: Adult vs Youth led. The other balancing act is being an ASM supporting the SM and not stepping on his toes. I honestly do not know what is up with the SM, but I see his health slowly getting worse. As you know I talked to the CC/COR once a few months ago, and my offer to step in as SM was rebuffed. But it seems as if I don't step in and help out and try to do things as they should be done, youth led, Gunship will come in and take over. And I honestly believe that while Gunship is a good person to have in a bad situation, he did help me out when I was injured, his style is more adult oriented, and will destroy the troop.

Here are some links to vintage knots, and ranks, in different colored backgrounds. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOUT-BSA-SCOUTERS-TRAINING-AWARD-KNOT-ON-SEA-SCOUTING-WHITE-EXPLORING-EXPLORER-/391469348274?hash=item5b256435b2:g:Qz4AAOSw0gdXS44j http://www.ebay.com/itm/KNOT-SCOUTERS-KEY-prior-1978-for-wear-on-the-SEA-SCOUT-BLUE-UNIFORM-INSIGNIA-/331851692918?hash=item4d43e6fb76:g:YdkAAOSwoydWjEpE http://www.ebay.com/itm/KNOT-Scouters-Training-Award-prior-1978-Sea-Scout-Blue-Uniform-INSIGNIA-OA-BSA-/331851692922?hash=item4d43e6fb7a:g:G4YAAOSw~OVWyDlR http://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Rank-Patch-on-Sea-Scout-White-Twill-j19-/380867448585?hash=item58ad780f09:g:uaUAAOxydgZTImVZ http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-1972-Silver-Beaver-Award-Sea-Scout-Blue-Cloth-Gauze-Back-Square-Knot-211849-/181890475945?hash=item2a598467a9:g:7XkAAOSwVL1WDdb3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Rank-Patch-on-Sea-Scout-Dark-Blue-Felt-j19-/380867448584?hash=item58ad780f08:g:jdgAAMXQ1d1TImVQ http://www.ebay.com/itm/SILVER-BEAVER-AWARD-FAWN-SEA-SCOUT-BACKGROUND-GAUZE-BACK-KNOT-F3106-/400879524680?hash=item5d56481b48:g:v9QAAOSwZjJU-6sL http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOUTERS-KEY-TRAINING-AWARD-GAUZE-BACK-ON-EXPLORER-GREEN-KNOT-F3123/311312179422?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36467%26meid%3Dd9c8ffb0461f408faa604c4013a5d5ef%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D400879524680

Does anyone have problems with Scouts and leaders wearing vintage uniforms? I know for my wife's 1950s den mother uniform, I could not find all original patches from that era. I had to use a reproduction or two to make the uniform "authentic." And even then, I still could not find reproductions I could afford for everything. Yes, I'm using vintage 70's/80s fully embroidered red numbers instead of yellow and blue numbers of the 1950s. So I have no problems with Ships' Stores and others who make reproductions of the pre-1970s Sea Scout white background, Sea Scout navy background, and Exploring green background. It's not economically feasible for BSA to make the Sea Scout background knots ( heck last time I ordered Sea Scout stuff from national, it had "Sea Explorer" on the label, and this was approx. 11 years after the Exploring/Venturing split). Ditto with the green background knots. I have no problem with them. I only wish all of my knots were available with the green background since I'm not restricted to 6 like the Sea Scout uniform, and my green uniform is the one I use on the district/council level on occasion.

Love the video. THANK YOU! Both the pack and troop I'm with assisted the American Legion with setting up flags at the cemetery today. On Monday both units will be taking them down. As for my hoodlums, on Monday they will be going to the Memorial Day Service.

@@UncleP 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (and yes I'm yelling at ya in joy ) 2) THANK YOU FOR TAKING CARE OF YOUR NEPHEW! (again yelling at you in joy! ) One of my Eagles was in a similar situation, but worse. It got so bad that while dad signed the paperwork to join the USAF at age 17, dad also kicked him out of the house because he did not want his son joining the USAF. Between when he joined and boot camp, and then the return from boot camp to when he graduated HS and went active duty, he was living at the SM's house. 3) As others have stated, Eagle is not the goal in Scouts. It is also the Scout's adventure, not yours, and he needs to develop HIS (emphasis) plan. There is a heckuva lot more to Scouting than getting Eagle. BUT YOU GOTTA BE THERE TO SUPPORT HIM, ESPECIALLY WITH HIS FAMILY SITUATION (emphasis) 4) Let me tell you the story of The Two Eagles. There once was an Eagle who was pushed by his Eagle Dad (and Exploring Silver Award recipient) to get his Eagle before high School. This Eagle earned it at age 13, then quit Scouting. He returned to Scouting when his son was a Tiger. Now 13 year old Eagle had a cousin. Cousin was also pushed to get eagle before High School, and was well on his way. He earned Life at 13, and was aiming to get it while 14. But something happened. First Cousin got elected into the Order of the Arrow (OA), Scouting honor society. Then he got selected by his troop to attend Brownsea 22, the National Youth Leadership Training course for advanced leadership of his day. Then Cousin went to a national Scout camporee and did a sixty-four mile canoeing expedition in Canada. Eventually 5 years had passed, and Cousin earned his Eagle 5 years after earning Life at the age of 18. 18 y.o. Eagle continued on in Scouting, becoming an assistant scoutmaster, a Sea Scout, OA lodge officer, spent 3 months working at a Scout camp in Europe, went to a world jamboree, and stayed active in Scouting in various roles until his son became a Tiger, and 18 y.o. Eagle became a Tiger Den Leader and is now watching his oldest, middle, and youngest sons grow up in Scouting. So who do you think had more fun in Scouting: my cousin who earned Eagle at 13, or me who earned it 18? So remember to let you nephew decide what to do, support him to the best of your abilities, and remember Eagle is not a race, or even a goal in Scouting. Good luck.

CANNOT AGREE WITH THIS MORE AS IT IS110% SPOT ON! (Caps for emphasis!) In the dark ages when I was a den chief, the worse problem I had was the first DL I was with did not know what to do with me and treated me as another Cub Scout. Thankfully I was able to switch to working with another den the next school year. My only problem I ever had with den chiefs is over enthusiasm. Had him teach a class on introductory camping, and he brought all his backpacking toys for the class. Thankfully I had my gear as well (I asked everyone bring their stuff) and we worked together to teach the class. I showed basic from the house stuff. He showed off the toys Had another DC doing knots, and he started doing all the basic Scout knots instead of the two they needed to learn. A good den chief is worth their weight in platinum!

I'm going from memory, so bear with me. When a CO dropped their pack like a hot potato while I was a DE, the CO gave the pack X months to get their stuff and find a new home. basically it was the end of the school year, May. That left 7 months on their charter, and they were good according to my boss.

I admit I've used an occasional word accidentally. I vividly remember saying in a loud voice " Oh (expletive deleted)! [scout's name] is really in trouble!" when I had my accident a few months back. One thing I tried to do to avoid using the foudl language was use another language. Yes I learned a few words in Croatian, Russian, and Finnish. Only time I ever got in trouble was with the Croatian. I banged my hand letting a professor into the Gym and said something in Croat. He looked at me, and asked "Did I just call him...." To my embarrasment, I told him I tried to use Croatian et al since most people don't know it. He had a very good laugh at my expense. On a normal basis, no the language is unacceptable and needs to be stopped.

I wish my challenging Scouts were like that. They I know how to handle. Probably because that was me and my troop growing up. That's the challenge: how to get the kids to get away from always going to mom and dad. I handed out camp schedules last nite, and one of the two immediately went to his dad to give him the schedule.

Growing up, my troop's SPL basically assigned folks to patrols. Initially it was essentially the first person to welcome them to the meeting. Over time we got a "feeder pack" and we would divide up the folks, teaming them up with an "experienced" Scout in the patrol to teach them and be with them at the meeting, and later on at the survival camp out. 9/10 the new Scout would join the patrol the did the survival camp out with. We were mixed aged patrols. Every 6 months we would do troop and patrol elections. After the SPL's election, we all had the chance to switch patrols if we wanted to. Rarely folks switched patrols, but it did happen. Then PL elections. Once we needed a 4th patrol due to new Scouts. I was asked to be their PL, so I left. This was before NSPs became part of the BSA, we were guinea pigs and it failed miserably. We went back to mixed aged patrols. But my patrol thought I did a good enough job to reelect me PL. In all honesty it was the only time I was elected to a POR. The exception to all this was the "cool patrol", aka the Leadership Corps. They were the older Scouts who had "been there, done that." All were First Class or higher, had served as PLs, and were essentially elected into the patrol by its members. Grant you it was an informal process, but they had to want you to join them. There were some perks, specifically doing some challenging activites whiel the troop did the scheduled stuff, but we also worked our butts off. We were the ones doing the teaching. We were the ones running the meetings, judging the interpatrol competitions, etc. The Leadership Corps was the ones serving as Instructors, Librarians, Quartermaster, etc. My current troop had adults assign patrols. One patrol is awesome, the older Scouts in the venture patrol. The others we will see. part of me wants to go to the model above: Permanent patrols that they stay in unless they want to switch or move up to the venture patrol.

Why did your instructors say to omit BSA's second oldest program? Sorry, but any website that omits Sea Scouts is incomplete. Sea Scouts in the USA is 104 years old this year older than the OA.

Yes, more problems than just these two as my other thread shows. Multiple adults told them to get their act together. Heck I even commented about performances at BORs for them. But the Gunship swoops in. And they are working the system quite well as dad is a facilitator. In one case, Scout sneaks in phone and calls mom at 1AM saying how horrible summer camp is, and momma drives over and picks ups first thing. Going to get interesting this camp since we are going to be about 1:30-2:00 away one-way instead of 45 minutes.

You never know. We had a Scout growing up switch troops and 2 years later came back to us. Challenge was that the rest of the patrol was suffering, and suffering miserably, because of these two.They would not listen to their PLs or their TGs, only to adults. Now grant you, we had one TG who became a challenge himself, and my son whose philosophy was to let them learn the hard way. But the adults, one in particular, would either come to their rescue or start yelling at his son. Funny thing is son does better when dad is not around. Originally the plan was to place them with one or two older Scouts who would not take the garbage and could be someone more imposing. But more on that.

Yep that's the typical DE. And yes, if you don't make your goals, you won't last long at all. MONEY, MEMBERSHIP, MANPOWER was the mantra.