Eagle94-A1

Don't I know it. I personally beleive alot of the problems the troop has had is because of adult over involvement. And you know me, I may want them to go to a specific camp, i may promote and advertise a specific camp, but I let the Scouts decide and go where they want to go.

Back when DALE was announced it was going to SCOTUS, I had a CO tell me they would no longer charter a pack. I had until the end of the School year, about 4 months, for the pack to find a new CO as they would no longer be allowed on the property. When BSA changed the youth membership standards, we lost a bunch leaders, donors, and an entire troop went to Trails Life. In fact, it was the troop my son first visited and wanted to join. Our membership number in my district have dropped, and it looks as if we may have to merge with another district because we do not have enough youth members to justify a DE. When BSA changed the leadership standards, the CO of my pack had a meeting with the CM and SM about how they will not allow any homosexual leaders in the troop, and that if they are forced to take them, the units would be dropped I a heartbeat. So it's affected my area.

I would love to say the Scouts, but it's complicated. 3 years ago, it was suggested to try something new by one of the ASMs. Boys agreed, and we went there and had a good time. When it came around to last year, unanimous decision was to go back to that camp, which we did. This year got interesting. I don't know if one of the ASMs got involved or not, but the SPL put his foot down at the planning meeting with the PLC saying we needed to go back to our home camp this summer, which we did. I know the adults talked about trying to convince the Scouts to go back to the home camp, so I don't know if this ASM had a word with the SPL or not. Good news everyone had a great time, and talking to everyone all but one Scout, mine, wants to go back again next summer. But that same ASM made a comment about going to a camp in the mountains. I have mixed emotions. One on hand the camp is new and has some great programs. On the other hand it is a drive, and much more expensive than the home camp. And I will have 2 Boy Scouts at that point.

I beg to differ. School and Scouting are two different animals. You cannot compare the two based upon my experiences as an educator and as a Scouter. School is regimented, disciplined, and has a hierarchy to instill knowledge. Scouting, especially old school Scouting as envisioned by BP, is a thing of self-learning. The Scouts do things on their own with SMs to guide and mentor, not supervise. You go to other countries, and Scouts will camp as patrols on their own without any adults present. In the US, that is no longer the case since about 4 years ago. In my 34 years in Scouting, the youth had a better understanding of each others' capabilities than the adults. When adults influence elections, appoint leaders, create patrols, ad nauseum it creates problems. I'm experiencing that right now as some of the leaders have decided to create patrols, set ridiculous requirements for various leadership positions, etc. The Scouts are not happy with the adult over-involvement, and it is showing: no patrol spirit, no desire to camp or attend meetings, etc. The youth feel they have no ownership in the troop, and it is starting to show. And I've seen this in every single troop that has too much adult involvement. I'm hoping with the new SM, things will improve. The troop that my pack's CO's has is very much adult led: APLs, PLs, SPL, etc are all appointed; adults create the calendar without any input from the youth, etc. Currently they are dying as folks are either aging out, or earning Eagle and quitting. The youth have no ownership in the unit, and it shows. And while a CO does have every right to approve, or disapprove, unit leadership and membership, if a CO was to remove a SPL without the APPEARANCE (emphasis) of a good reason to all of the youth in a unit, you can bet the other Scouts will take notice, and it will lower morale, patrol and troop spirit, etc. Unilaterally removing a youth because they are not doing a good job, because of the relationship with the SM, etc are not good reasons IMHO. Scouts will have that in the back of their minds. .

Question is am I paranoid enough?

Agree, I would have issues if a manager didn't have a hard time allowing folks they do not know take over. Supplement my staff, yes and have had that happen back in the day. But as a pool manager, you are legally obligated to make sure folks meet all of the requirements for certification and maintain those skills. Only time I had no problem with someone coming is and working was when they came from a sister facility when we were short staffed, and I was one of the instructors who trained her. FYI, I would have yanked them out but was told not to by the BSA Aquatics Supervisor when I was about to. His comment about one of the swimmers was "he has a weird swimming style that works." But for the life of me that particular Scout had me concerned. Kept my eyes on him the entire time he was in the deep end. The other one that had me concerned ended up having his SM, who was one of the BSA Lifeguard Instructors swim alongside him for encouragement. Believe me, I've always been safety oriented when it comes to water, and have become a bit paranoid since the accident back in August.

While having a UC affiliated with a unit, let alone having a Scout in a unit, is not optimal, there are times when districts have no choice. I had to take over as UC when the UC of the CO's units died unexpectedly back when my older two Scouts were in the pack. 5 years later, I'm still the acting UC for the pack, not the troop though, because the two UC's they had assigned to use got frustrated enough with the troop to quit. And some SM's are so obstinate that they refuse to listen to anyone who is trying to help them. It sound as if this is the case with the SM of this unit. And one of the keys to being a good SM in my honest opinion, is being able to treat all Scouts as if they were "your sons," or "my Scouts" as I phrase it. Initially I wished my son had NOT been elected as SPL, wanting one of the older Scouts to get it. However the way he handled the job surprised all the adults, including me, but not the Scouts. The youth know things better than us old fogeys. We need to listen to them and let them do what is needed to be done. Our job is to mentor and support them, not throw up obstacles and issue orders to them.

Until the SPL resigns, just stops showing up, or the youth want a new SPL, Zuzy's son is till the SPL, regardless of what the SM or any other adult wants.. The youth voted him in, and the adults need to keep out of it. Adult interference WILL (emphasis) destroy a troop. My troop is currently having issues because of adults constantly interfering. It's only been since we have stepped back that things have gotten somewhat better. Most of the youth are still not happy with the situation, but are tolerating it now that we adults have backed off and let them run things.

EBOR members are as varied as the leaders in Scouting. I've seen first hand, and heard of some EBOR members from the district level who are real control freaks, and are very offensive. The district advancement chairman who sat one mine was one such fellow, and I believe he sat on a friend of mine's too. As I've mentioned elsewhere, he wanted to deny me my Eagle because he was not the DAC who approved my Eagle project. And while he did approve my friend's project, at the EBOR made a comment that if he had known exactly what was involved, he would not have approved the project since it didn't really help the community. Tell that tot he numerous folks who have been rescued by the search and rescue group that my buddy built training obstacles for their rescue dogs. Heck the group went into action when we had a lost camper at out camp one year! And other district reps are true representations of the Scout Law: Trustworthy, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind. The former DAC who did approve my project, whom I also went to jambo and Canada with, was on the EBOR and was a truly exemplified the points above. He was the one who courteously asked me to step outside as the EBOR discussed the Eagle project "situation."

Doing a little research, finding someone qualified to run the Mile Swim may be a challenge. I needs to be a BSA Aquatics Supervisor or equivalent. BSA Aquatics Supervisors have to go to National Camping School. As for "Equivalent" I am assuming, and you know what can happen when you assume , that means a BSA Lifeguard Instructor, who is trained by an AS to teach BSA Lifeguard, the Aquatics Supervision Swimming and water rescue, etc. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Awards_Central/MileSwim.aspx

If losing membership is "thriving," I'd hate to see what dying is like.

I agree with Mash, some of the kids I guarded while doing mile swim had me on edge the entire time. It was so bad that if I had the ability, I was guarding to meet BSA Lifeguard requirements and didn't have it, I would have taken two out because they were essentially doggie paddling the entire time. Several times I though I would have to go in.

Yes, and then you have to take it off afterwards.

Reason why my friend left and restarted the pack was because the IH is an Eagle, saw that the church had at one time one of the oldest troops and packs in the council, and saw a need for a pack and troop. Very hard to say no to your pastor. That CO wants members of the church as CM and SM, and asked him to be CM. Funny thing about the pack, they "ripped off and duplicated" my pack's program. Some minor differences, but overall identical. This has been pointed out on multiple occasions when I and my middle son were asked to switch packs. If you have enough folks from your CO to run units, more power to you! In my 34 years of Scouting with 4 different councils, only 1 unit I was ever affiliated with ever had 50+ percent of the unit's leadership and youth as members of the CO, and that was the pack I was in as a youth. And that was only because the pack was chartered to the church we all went to, and not the parochial school attached to the church that we met at. Otherwise it would have been under 50%. I'm glad to be allowed to participate with other churches units. Very heavy anti-Catholic bias where I'm at, and when I started a pack as a DE at my church, the backlash was horrible. Pack dies within 9 months as we could not get enough kids and leaders to keep it going. Heck I had someone call me up and curse me out about having the new pack meet at a Catholic church, and they would not join Scouting if they let Catholics in. Funny thing is that where I grew up at, about 75% of the COs were either Catholic churches, schools, or Knights of Columbus councils. Somewhat back on topic. I did not join the troop that my church chartered because they had nothing to do with my pack: no den chiefs, invitations to camp outs, NOTHING (emphasis). One of the few non-Catholic troops provided a den chief to my den, and Bob's your uncle I joined them since I knew one of them, camped with them, etc. Now I did leave when new adult leadership came aboard, but it was still not my church's troop, but another one. Very glad that other COs were friendly and courteous enough to let me join.

I agree it is not good as it leads to burn out. And I do agree I wear too many hats. Trust me I've stepped back from to focus on the two units I serve. As for the UC role, gotta remember I'm the Assistant District Commissioner for Cub Scout Roundtable, and was asked to be the temporary UC when the CO's UC died and they could find a replacement. Reason being was that I was with the CO, but not with the troop, and maybe the SM would listen to me. Didn't happen, and I asked to be replaced before a UC could be found. Long story short, there have been two UCs since me, one who was a former ASM with the troop who moved for 2 years and then moved back. Everyone who has tried to help have shaken their head in dismay with the troop. As for not allowing a Scouter to serve a unit with with another CO, I respect that and understand. You can read in some of my threads how hard it has been for me to remain "neutral" and how I've stayed with the pack because A) friendships my Cubs and I have made and B) sense of commitment to the pack. I admit if the pack's IH asked me to step aside, I would with great sadness because i think it would destroy the pack. When the Troop's CO restarted their pack and troop, they asked one of my pack's DLs to be the CM. He stepped down, but didn't say why/ No one knew that the CO was restarting the pack and troop until he showed up to the first Roundtable fo the School year. Over a 4 month period, via word of mouth 1/2 out pack transferred. Thankfully my Troop's IH will not give me a choice between his church or the pack's church. We've discussed the matter, and he understands and appreciates my sense of commitment to the pack

I gotta laugh at that because you need to read my previous posts over the years about this troop. I have bent over backwards trying to help this troop out. Here's a quick summary of the past 6 or 7 years. As soon as I found out the old SM was stepping down and that the new SM and other leaders did not have IOLS, I set up an IOLS course in 3 months working around that troop's schedule specifically to get their leaders trained. The SM was the only one to attend and told me the reason no one else showed up was "it's too cold to camp." When their UC (who was very active, knowledgeable, and attempted to help them) died, I was appointed UC and tried to help them, only to be told "Scouting needs to change with the times," and ignored. Thinking the SM might listen to the old SM and a former ASM ( he moved to the crew at this point and was district training chair) I got them involved in trying to mentor the SM. They too were ignored. When the district and pack was recruiting new Cubs and some Boy Scout aged boys showed up, against my better judgment I recruited for the troop. When I ran into them again, 4-6 months later, they had quit the troop and would not consider looking at other troops. EDITED: against my better judgment because I had ran into several Scouts from the troop who either quit, transferred to another unit, or were only registered to stay active with the OA and not the troop. The exodus from the troop had started 2-3 years before my son made a decision to join a different troop. When the pack and I begged them for den chiefs to not only assist the pack, but also build the relationship with the Boy Scouts and help with recruiting for the troop, we were ignored the first year. Second year they reluctantly provided den chiefs only when they found out another troop asked if they could provide den chiefs ( not my troop by the way). Those den chiefs caused more problems and were eventually sent home and asked not to come back after about 2 months. When the pack and I begged the SM to invite the Webelos to camp, not only to meet Webelos advancement, but also develop a relationship with the potential new Scouts, it was reluctantly given, the Webelos were not treated nicely, and the troop had major issues. We begged them two more years to invite us to a camp out, despite the negative experience, only to be told "No" one year, and the second year we got the invite the week before the event, at which point we had accepted another troop's invitation because we had not heard form them. When my son decided he would not join that troop after camping with them one time (it was pretty bad), only one Scout and parent in the den knew he was not joining them; his best friend. All four of us deliberately stayed quiet about it until the last minute so that we would not influence the others. Eventually 2 of those who joined quit Scouting altogether, 2 transferred to our troop, and only 1 remained in that troop as his dad is an ASM. When the troop didn't have enough leaders to camp because most of the Scouts and leaders left early, I stayed behind to make sure they had 2 deep leadership, and tried to talk to the SM about Training, boy run, etc to no avail. When the troop finally did do something with the Webelos this past March and the Scouts and I were at the campfire and talking about ways to get involved with the Cubs and ways to recruit new Scouts after having 2 years with no new Scouts crossing over to them, I was told to "SHUT UP AND GO TO BED!" by the SM. I don't think I have poached, and that's why I gotta laugh.

I know the blue cards have a section for the Scout to keep as a record, so I don't understand why the SM holds onto all of them until he is an Eagle. Glad he got the MBCs to sign a second card. Question, can your son get a copy of his SCOUTNET records from the council? I'd be more concerned about that since if the SM loses bluecards, is the records getting turned in to council? And even then, I know for a fact that sometimes councils will lose, misplace, or even use the wrong date the rank and/or MB was earned in the records. Took a month AFTER my EBOR for council to fix my records as they had the date they were inputted into their system (preSCOUTNET) instead of the date actually earned.

Some ideas without expanding upon the hurt feelings: Scouts volunteering at Cub Scout Day Camp, Pinewood derby, etc. Den Chiefs which is what you are doing already. Get pics in the newspaper, website, facebook group, etc. Publicity is a good promoter. Have scouts invite their friends. Get a list of all the dropped Scouts/ failed to cross over ex Cubs, have the Scouts look at it, and see who they can talk into visiting. I can understand your situation completely, i.e. involved in one pack but involved in a different troop. I'm still in it, a pack committee member with one CO and an ASM in another CO. SM of the pack's CO's troop and I are not on speaking terms because I "betrayed" the troop by going to another troop, and then Scouts not happy with that troop transferring into mine. Try to not let it bother you.

Last night was another reason why I like having a Scout pay some how, whether doing fundraising or putting "sweat equity" into doing camps and trips. As you know, my troop's Philmont trip was cancelled, and we had a bunch of upset Scouts. One of the leaders was bound and determine to get the boys on a special backpacking trip and they are doing the AT. One of the Scouts who was suppose to do Philmont is in financial difficulties. The fundraisers didn't pan out as planned (one reason trip got cancelled). Anyway, to go on the AT trek, The Scout was borrowing a bunch of the gear needed for the trek. They leave Friday, and he backed out last night for "family reasons." Trip is the same week as the Philmont trek, has been planned since the folks knew Philmont was cancelled (heck planning started before it was announced to everyone as the AT trek leader found out before anyone else did!). And since they were going low budget, each person was responsible for their own food, the "big" cost of the trip, other than gear which he was borrowing. Needless to say, very disappointing.

That is a very real possibility. My wife's best friend and my in-laws had a conspiracy to send us to Orlando to go to Disney as a Christmas present. Friend had a timeshare she couldn't use last year, and the in-laws paid for the tickets. We could not afford to go otherwise. Edited: One thing I did was mention that fact to folks, because it can look very bad, and appearances are important. I especially mentioned how the present was given, i.e. a box with a card saying "You're going to Disney!" and the look at first of stunned belief on the youngest son's face, then the "happy dance" he did.

To quote Spicolli, "AWESOME! TOTALLY AWESOME!"

No apologies needed. Trust me, I've probably heard the rant a time or two. One reason I didn't send oldest to that troop to look at. However, that is the troop oldest has a bunch of friends from the homeschool group in.

Yes, the maple sugar frosting and BACON is awesome. I should have added, my family too has a ban on DD. Something in their ingredients really gets to my hoodlums and make their behavior worse than normal. In-laws are not happy with that as Mom-in-law is a donut fanatic, and used to bring a dozen or two from DD since we have a DD store 3 blocks away. But KK and a local bakery's donuts, as well as the Duck Donuts above (with their MAPLE AND BACON DONUT ) do not cause behavioral issues.

We've had some transfer in, and some transfer out. Our door is always open. Our concern is when they quit altogether. I've helped Scouts find homes, even if it wasn't the troop I'm with.

When I say I find a troop's practice EBOR, here's the reasons. 1) The DAC and/or EBOR members have a yearly meeting talking about the entire Life to Eagle process: i.e. projects approval process, paperwork involved, the EBOR, etc. I attended part of one (it was the same night as Roundtable), and it was extremely informative. It does prepare Scouts for the entire process and I want to take my son to the next one as soon as he is able to. 2) From I've been told, these "practice" EBORs are harder, more difficult, and are more on the lines of retests than a true BOR. 3) I've been told that some Scouts who have "failed" their "practice" EBOR are not allowed to have a district EBOR until the unit approves.