Eagle94-A1

@@SpEdScouter , It can be a combination of factors. I know the council I grew up in sold the original camp because of urban encroachment and the camp was too small because property owners who use to let the Scouts tramp about sold the property and the new owners said no more. What I fin ironic is that the camp was created in the 1920s, and the closest town started expanding after the 1950s. The new neighbors began complaining about the noise, traffic, etc of having a camp as their next door neighbor. Thankfully the council purchased property that was 3+ times the size of the original camp. But I admit, I'm concerned, especially about the local camp in my district. The property around the camp is being sold off. In the past 10 years, 3 MacMansions have arisen, and a popular hiking trail that we had access to was closed off by the new property owners. And not everyone has heard that yet as it is that recent! My understanding is that a trust owns the property, so it cannot be sold. But one SE so neglected the camp, that the only reason it was able to survive was because of individual units and OA chapters investing in it and doing repairs and maintenance. Over a 10 year period, the OA chapter alone spent $10-$12,000 alone on supplies to maintain the camp. And that doesn't include all the man-hours involved, or what local units did. Under the new NCAP program, I don't know what will happen.

And that is part of the problem, people at national having little or no experience as a youth in the program coming up with rules. Also there is a lot of pressure from parents, as well as leaders too. I had a leader at camp tell me one of my scouts was wasting his time because he was taking swimming MB a second time because he wanted to swim during the middle of the day, and the only way to do that was to take Swimming MB again, or Lifesaving MB again. OK I admit I wished he would have taken Lifesaving a second time, butonly because I wanted to be an active victim on him

@@thrifty 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

True. But a lot of the demand for the BSA to go fully coed is coming from parents. If the girls, and especially their parents, demanded change, it would come. It may be slow, but it will come. And you admit there is movement in that direction. Me personally, I have mixed emotions. On one hand I know how important it for males to be by themselves and be guys. And I admit I am concerned about how the program will change. Let's face it there have been changes in the program since female SMs and ASMs have been allowed. And yes, I admit I did have a negative experience in my coed Sea Scout ship back in the day. The male Sea Scouts were forced to do things for the female members, and they did not carry their own weight. But on the other hand, I know everything else in our society is going coed. I have also met female Venturers who pulled their own weight, and even carried their brother's weight.

If we use history as a basis, then things will change. When BSA allowed female SMs and ASMs, BSA had to change how training was conducted because most, by no means all but most, women Scouters did have the outdoor skills needed for Scouting. Further none of the ladies had the experience of the Patrol Method, the foundation of Scouting. Even with today's training there is little to no training on that. My question is this: if the girls want an active outdoor program, then by don't they get GSUSA to change their program?

Your son has to make a choice: Stay with his friends and earn AOL or Move up to Boy Scouts. He cannot do both. I do not know how your pack handled the transition to the new requirements. Nor do I know how your pack handles its program. It may be that he has a month or two left, or he has 7 months minimum ahead. He has to think about it and make the decision. My son figured out last year that if he wanted to, he could skip Webelos badge since it is not longer required, and start work immediately on AOL so that he could cross over at 10.5 and go to summer camp. He eventually decided to wait it out with his friends. He'll be 11 when he becomes a Boy Scout, while his buddies are 10-10.5, but he's OK with that.

I've been waiting for that to occur for 18 years now, ever since the then SCOUTNET 2000 Director told a bunched brand new DEs that that would be happening.

Yep we got a Moriarty in the troop

Yes, I gotta learn to live with what irks me, and the "negative waves" of some folks. I gotta remember to not let the "negative waves" bring me down.

I was in the same situation: needing TCDL knots. What I was told to do is buy the DL knot and add the Tiger device to it. That is what recipients of the TCDL were told to do when the knot was abolished, and TDLs do now. Ebay is another option, but be prepared to pay for it. One is for sale at $40 or thereabouts, and another has a current bid of $11. Another option can be thrift stores. Back in the day, I was able to find all kinds of patches I needed, and traded, on used uniforms. Unfortunately that is not an option for me locally as our SCOUTREACH director has a standing order with all the local thrift stores. Good luck

Currently we have 2 Scouts that are year round; one is homeschooled so summer activities are not a problem as the family can work around them. However the other is in a private, year round school, and it does indeed affect him. This past summer, the troop had a narrow window of weeks he could attend summer camp. He was unable to do trip he wanted to go on, the AT trek, due to being back in school. Further on some late meeting nights, he had to cut it short due to homework and school. It's bad enough that his mother requires him to leave 30 minutes early whenever school is in session, but having to leave an hour early cuts into some stuff. (He lives 45 minutes one way away the troop. He's actually spends more time on the road than at meetings, but that is both His wish and his dad is willing to do whatever it takes.)

Two things I forgot to mention above. Regarding youth signing off on advancement there were two reasons given, both by two adults affected by this apparently.: PLs signing off their buddies for the heck of it and PLs "punishing" Scouts they do not like. From what I am being told, the Scouts in the troop back in the day signed off on their buddies even if they had not mastered the skill and Pls woudl refuse to sign folks off who had mastered the skill. Also the youth on BORs, this was in the 1972 - 1989 time frame when youth were allowed on BORs, would fail those Scouts who they thought were not ready or out of pettiness. One adult mentioned how he failed 3 youth run Tenderfoot BORs, and only when he went before adults the 4th time did he earn Tenderfoot. Second item was the patrol method. Someone asked if I'm such a big proponent of the patrol method, then why am I against national's current set up of NSP, Regular Patrol, Venture Patrol? had to remind them that A) every unit can adapt elements of BSA's program to meet their needs, i.e. LDS units having 11 years olds in a separate patrol, limited # of campouts, etc; and B) From 1910 to 1989 there was no such thing as a NSP, unless you were in one of the experimental patrols or LDS, and that originally it was only mixed-aged patrols. Needs for older scouts were recognized so Sea Scouts, Explorer patrols, venture crews/patrols had come about over the years. Only since 1989 and Operation First Class has the concept of an NSP with a TG and ASM assigned to them have been around. Adult tried to say I was wrong about the TG and that the NSP worked only with an ASM. I asked can we get the book out to see who is right. Then he backed down. On a personal note, I think the troop is taking a step in the right direction. But I also think the adults restraining the troop from being a full blown Scout run troop won't be leaving anytime soon. But I'm hoping discussion and compromise can occur. The Scouts themselves have so much potential.

Update. The adults, minus the CC/COR and the IH, met. Definite changes are headed our way, as well as some of the same. Changes I like include PLC meeting monthly for a "long" meeting and 15 minutes before each meeting. Scouts run the meetings and doing more instructing. Also Interpatrol Activities will be incorporated. Adults quit reforming the troop and keeping the current patrols, with adding new members to existing patrols; no more NSPs. PLC members responsible for meeting the Scouts' advancement. BORs scheduled for every month AND no more multiple Scouts having a BOR. Same Old Same Old: Adults will be assigned to work with patrols. I told them I disagree with it because it's too easy to to turn it back into Cub Scouts. But majority said they are not ready to work 100% alone. Eventually While PLC members can say the Scout has met requirements, Scouts cannot sign off on them still,. only an adult. Changes I disagree with: Before having an SMC, Scouts will be retested by the ASM assignd to their patrol to make sure they are proficient in the skills. Which begs the question: If adults are the only ones signing off, why the need for testing before an SMC?

My district is in the same shape, only a handful of MBCs will work with anyone. It has caused me to do something I not only dislike, but discourage: "officially" sign off on my son's MBs. I'm an MBC for several MBs, including two my son got partials in at summer camp. Looking at the MBC list, I'm the only MBC who will work with anyone, everyone else will only work with folks in their troop. Way I handle it is to get him to do the work with one of the ASMs, and when they say he's done it, then sign off. In the 24 years as an MBC, I've had 4 people contact me, either by phone or in person at a camporee. Bulk of my counselor work has been summer camp, and MBUs.

Try these: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/seton/indoor/index.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/seton/council/index.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/indoor.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/ripley/1_indoor.htm And if needed http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/disabled/index.htm

Well, here are the events that the group that stepped down came up with, and the Scouts I talked to like. Canoe Orienteering, yep an orienteering course that incorporates canoes and land Scout Transport Pioneering Kim's Game Fire String Burning ( no takes on the boiling water, cooking a noodle, and tieing a square knot) First Aid scenario using real life scenarios, and possible Webelos as victims Tomahawk Throwing Dutch Oven cook off Skits Uniform Inspection Camp Inspection And there is one more I cannot think of. Regarding the cardboard boats, while I would love it, and probably the Scouts, When I mentioned the canoe orienteering to some adults, they hit me with some negative waves. Scout I talked to love it. From the negative waves I got from the adults, I think they would excrete a brick if I did cardboard boats. ALTHOUGH looking at the Scout Transport info, there is a pioneering boat project in the book.

Anecdotally I was told, and I think some on this website mentioned it a few years ago too, that in the 1970s there was talk about the BSA either merging with GSUSA or going coed. Girl Scouts nixed that one. As for facing the wrath of the GSUSA, national encountered that in the late 1980s, early 1990s. National supply wanted to come out with a Boy Scout Energy Bar that could be sold in Scout shops. GSUSA got a wind of it, and unleashed their lawyers on the BSA to stop it as the energy bar was too close to their cookies. I got a case of those Boy Scout energy bars when the scout shop moved and they were getting rid of unnecessary merchandise prior to the move.

I've seen mergers, and I've seen splits. With one merger, youth took it well, but we still had some issues due to geography. Because of the Mississippi River and its bridges, at one point folks had to go out of the council's boundaries to get to the meeting place. Adults did have some issues, especially when it came time to nominating folks for the District Award of Merit and other local awards. With a second district merger, contrary to the way things are suppose to be, the two OA chapters did NOT (emphasis) merge. Yes, one district had 2 OA chapters. Eventually the district split in two a few years later. At one point I was in a newly reformed district that still had a merged OA chapter. it took about 2 years after the district separation to get 2 different chapter going.

'Skip, BRAVO ZULU! that is awesome. I didn't know Mythbusters did a ducttape canoe, but I saw a duct tape kayak, and made one out of pvcpipe, ductape, and plastic sheeting.

Apparently I jumped the gun. There was a meeting in June where things were planned. However the two people involved backed out of the camporee, one for medical reasons ( for which I hope they get better), and one for other reasons. Good news is that when I chatted with some older scouts in the troop about the events, with the exception of one, orienteering, they were happy with them. They suggested replacing orienteering with geocaching.

I know. I think that's one reason why the camporee chief stepped down, it was not fun. My troop looked at the events last year, and decided not to go. If I had some time to plan this, I'd go to the OA, and get them to plan it instead. Or have some meetings with SPLs to get their ideas. But I have 2 weeks to organize, come up with a guide, recruit, staff etc. Then I got about a month afterwards to get the camporee "fully armed and operational." I got 7 weeks until "SHOWTIME!" Nothing like the last minute. BTW, I am asking older two hoodlums for ideas. Plan on talking to some Scouts too, but don't have a lot of time, especially since I'm out of town for three days at some point. You know the sign of a genius is how much a person thinks like you do. Last year, they had a catapult competition involving built at meetings catapults. It was INTENSE. Some of the catapults and trebuchets could have taken down the walls of Gondor. I thought about making them build their own AT the camporee and firing for distance and/or accuracy (time permitting on accuracy). It was a fun thing to do at JLT back in the day. Please keep ideas coming. Ask your Scouts, any help is greatly appreciated.

Ok, my district's philosophy is that the camporee should be run by adults so that the Scouts can compete. That's why adults are heavily involved in the process. My district also has the history of poor communications, and last minute planning. Hence when it came time to ask the camporee chief where the camporee book is so that Scouts can start preparing, the answer was "I told the committee last year I'm stepping down." So guess who has 1.5 weeks to come up with a camporee plan and publish it. Good news is that this is a joint district camporee, so the other district may have a lot of work already planned. Or they may not. Theme is "Back to Basics" and I want to focus on Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class Scout skills. Are there any events you have seen that the scouts liked? I'll start. FIRE & KNOTS. Patrol builds and lights a fire. They cook a noodle and then tie it into a square knot as a timed event. It is harder than it sounds.

So, oldest is trying to come up with ways to inspire the patrols to do what they are suppose to do. He came up with putting a pie in an ASM's face for the top patrol after 2 or three months. I'm game, but what are your thoughts.

As others have stated, there may be something that has been told to the new IH about the leadership that you do not know about: accusations, innuendo, rumours, etc. Good news is that if it was the case, BSA wold have been told and your membership yanked, permanently. The IH may not like Scouting for whatever reason. I had a CO get e new IH who hated Scouting. After having the police called on us for trespassing because we were late getting out of an Eagle Court of Honor, we moved to a different CO. And the CO may want the unit's leadership to be a member of the CO. My current troop is like that, they want the SM to be a member of the church. As others mentioned, it may be time to get another unit going.

Regarding older Scouts, I think it's a combination of factors, and they vary as much as each individual Scout. I think older Scouts do have an obligation to give back to the younger Scouts, just as older Scouts helped them out. But they do need to some challenging activities that the rest of the troop cannot do. The canoe trip up in Canada I did was a district event, not a troop event. But being creative in programing can help provide the opportunity for more challenging activities. I've mentioned about harder, more difficult trails my Leadership Corps did while the rest of the troop did the standard trail at Vicksburg. One camp out, while the bulk of the troop was doing canoeing, the LC did motorboating. etc. But back on topic, what are some arguments against letting youth sign off have you heard?