Eagle94-A1

As you know I hate adult interference too. It really does mess up things. IMHO the NSP concept was one developed by adults, specifically using the LDS model, in 1989. Yes my troop had an "older Scout patrol" called the Leadership Corps, but until you got into it, you were in a traditional, mixed aged patrol. We had 11 to 15 year olds in them. The two times we used NSPs, it was total failures. Too many new folks for just one person to deal with. We went back to traditional patrols, had 'experienced" Scouts work one-on-one with the new Scouts, and it worked. My current troop's former NSP was a lot like your Philmont trek, new Scouts from 5 different Webelos dens with 5 different levels of preparedness for Boy Scouts. Some jumped in and tried to get the job done. Others were so used to the adult Cub Scout leaders doing everything, they didn't have a clue. Unless threatened with physical violence (we found out after their TG was no longer there) they didn't do a thing. The ones used to Cub leaders doing things and telling them what to do refused to listen to the PL and TG's advice. It was a complete disaster with several Scouts contemplating leaving. I admit, I do not like how the adults changed the patrols after the PLC came up with a method of dividing everyone. They spent 3 months trying to come up with a solution to our NSP mess, and could only come up with traditional patrols.Their method of division was pure randomness (putting an existing patrol's names in a hat and pulling them out for each patrol) and IMHO genius. But the adults rearranged it for HA purposes. Although I wished the Scouts would have been able to select the patrol they were in at the last unit elections ( my troop gave everyone the opportunity to switch patrols every 6 months), the PLC was tired of the lack of stable patrols, and decided no switching about. Hopefully that will get patrol spirit going. I just wish the adults would get out of the way, and have patience. Organization and leadership do not happen overnight, especially with adults constantly stepping in and interfering.

After the complete mess our NSP was, we are integrating everyone into existing patrols. We are going old school. Traditional Patrols. When my middle son crosses over, he wil be integrated into an existing patrol.

Coming from Southeast Louisiana, instead of a rabbit, it was a crawfish out of his hole, around the tree, and back in the hole. here in NC, it's a snake.

Outdoor Code came in the late 1940s, early 1950s. It's been tweaked over the years too. Three times if memory serves.

As others suggested, move on. Is it hard to do? Yes. Does it get really frustrating at times thinking about it or hearing something about the situation and/or unit? Absolutely. Is there anything district and/or council can do about it? Not really. I was accused of "stealing" Cub Scouts from the troop that is with the same CO as my pack. Yep i stole their Scout after trying to help them out, offering advice to prevent folks from transferring or quitting, recruiting for them against my better judgement, and camping with them when all their adults left except one so they could have 2 deep leadership. Since I'm on the district committee, folks know the situation between me and the SM.

Back. Again I strongly recommend there is one or two liaison people between a CO's pack, troop, and, if they have one, ship or crew. I know the pack I'm with had one back in the day when I joined. They had a very good Webelos to Boy Scout transition program as a result. Unfortunately a change in adult Scouters with the troop ended the transition program, as well as other things. The troop has not received any new Scouts from the pack since 2013. Thankfully the CM and SM are old friends, and the CM wants the troop saved. So he was able to push the troop into working with the pack when others were unable to. In 2 weeks they are getting 3 Webelos from the wife's den. On the flip side, the troop I'm with has an active relationship with the pack. It's not perfect, but it is good. Just this past weekend we had their Webelos work on CASTAWAY with one of our Scouts while the Troop did Wilderness Survival. We will probably get 7 of their 14 Webelos in March. The other 7 will be going to their brothers' troop. Long story short, we had a pack fold a few years back, and everyone joined my Troop's affiliated pack. So that troop does get some of our Webelos. While some are not happy with that, most of the adult leaders are more concerned that they stay involved with Scouting.

@@bbender Ideas to improve Cub Scouts look good to me. One thing I would suggest is talking to units that did NOT have problems with the June 2015 - November 2016 requirements to see what they did to get things done. However regarding this statement: I say it depends. I've seen where a CO had the same committee for both units work with minor changes. My troop had one committee, and the crew had almost the exact committee. Differences was the SM was the CC of the crew, and advisor for the crew was the CC of the troop. And I have heard of a few COs that do it that way But in my experience it doesn't work. One unit will be neglected, and sometimes both. The pack I'm with had a combined committee with the troop. The committee was a paper committee and really did not help either unit. While the paper members were still left on the charter, parents in both units joined the committee, and eventually assumed the chairmanship of the committee since the de facto chair was nonexistent. The defacto Chair seems to like it this way, and so does the IH. The troop I'm with had a similar situation: one committee for its pack and troop. However the troop was getting all the attention, and the pack was suffering and suffering bad. Eventually parents in the pack stepped up and started doing the committee's job. Do not know if they are officially registered as MCs or not, but the CC and IH are happy. One thing I do suggest is one person serve as a liaison between the pack and the troop. More later

The zip off pants are great in the field, especially the "gen 1" switchbacks with the zippers at the ankles. I've unzipped the ankle zipper, unzipped the lower leg, and pulled the leg off without taking off the boots. FYI the ODLs, the "Centennial Uniform" (i.e. the one with the "smokes pocket on the sleeve) and whatever they are calling the current ones (without the smokes pocket) are all interchangable. So you can wear your ODL shirt with the new pants, wear the old insignia on the new uniform etc.

Fleagles. Originally the Flying Eagles, but one of them shortened it to Fleagles, and it stuck.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! 2) Regarding Cub Scout Leaders uniforms and ODL mk1 uniforms, pretty much what is worn today The current CS leader necker was the same. Webelos DL had a patch on it with the gold edging, not the embroidered emblem of today. The hat and the slide have changed. Correct hat for a CM and DLs would be this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CUB-SCOUTS-WOLF-HAT-SNAPBACK-ADJUSTABLE-UNION-MADE-IN-THE-USA-VGC-/272483876135?hash=item3f714dfd27:g:zYQAAOSw-0xYTyvB Webelos DLs would have this one minus the pins http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cub-Boy-Scout-Hat-with-Pins-Excellent-Condition-/201730348939?hash=item2ef810d78b:g:afgAAOSwiONYK6ou Slide for DLs and CM would be the general CS one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cub-Wolf-Boy-Scout-Neckerchief-Slide-Tie-Clip-Gold-Blue-/371731606215?hash=item568cee2ac7:g:Jh8AAOSwgZ1XqlD~ WDLs would wear the current Webelos slide. And as Tampa Turtle states, you could make your own.

We had a situation where the non-custodial parent showed up when the troop was going on a camp out, and was planning on taking his sons away for the weekend. Custodial parent got wind of this prior to the weekend, and literally left town with the entire family at the last minute. I'd have a registered CS leader, as someone else recommended either the Cubmaster or Committee Chairman, contact the scout executive ASAP to find out how to deal with the issue as laws vary from state to state. If there is indeed a restraining order, and in 2 other cases we had restraining orders to be aware of, make sure someone on adult on the trip knows about them, and CALL THE POLICE IF THEY SHOW UP! (emphasis) As another said, protect the scout(s). Things can get real bad real fast. Good luck.

I've seen it one time. Scout was primary with a troop, secondary with the summer camp Explorer Post/Crew (this was in the 1998-99 time frame). Long story short everything was completed with the troop, but something happened, and the EBOR was done via the post/crew. Also know a Scout who had his Eagle COH through the crew, and not the troop. CO gave a week's notice that they could not have the ECOH at the troop's meeting site. Summer camp crew came through, found a location and did it.

With all due respect, Bill deserves a permanent exhibit.

WOW!

I was planning to visit the museum in Irving whenever I visit the family. I can't afford to goto Philmont.

Yes, I'd have some challenges with Boy Scouts having family activities. I still remember when one trip was ruined because it turned into a family camp out. And I am concerned about my troop as they have had a history in the past of having a family camp out each year. One of the ASMs and the old SM both commented on it. My challenge is that we have 6 months of camp outs "preplanned:" one month we staff Webeloree, 2 months are "pre-camporee camp outs" that we must do to earn points in competitions, 2 months are camporee, and 1 month is summer camp. Add in the annual lock in that the Scouts do not want to get rid of, and over half the year is planned out.

SO TRUE!!!!!! You're going to laugh, but I started the process as Tigers. Working with the district's Webeloree chief, I took my Tigers to the webeloree so they could not only see what they had to look forward to as Webelos, but also see the Scouts in action running the events. That was part of the hike they had to do back then. My council does a combined camporee, with an area for Cub Scouts Only, Area for Boy Scouts only, and a common area for both. Cubs can hike inthe Boy Scout area and look around. Take the Cubs there every year. Our Webeloree is run like a camporee, and that introduces them to some aspects fo Boy Scouts too. And having a Den Chief is also a good step forward. BUT THE KEY IS HAVING WEBELOS DEN LEADERS WHO WILL GET THE PARENTS TO UNDERSTAND THEY NEED TO SIT BACK SOME AND START WATCHING THE WEBELOS DO THEIR THING!!!!!!!!! (emphasis, ok maybe shouting at the top of my lungs ) I started explaining the differences since Tigers. I used Den Chiefs when I could, I talked to parents about the differences between Boy Scout leaders and Cub Scout leaders and I have demonstrated the ideal position of the Scoutmaster, aka "The Al Bundy," i.e sitting in a chair with a cup of coffee, or herbal tea or hot cocoa for our LDS brethen, and repeating the mantra "Have you asked your patrol leader?" What's interesting is to see my pack's Webelos dens, especially the ones I was involved with at one time, act and compete, versus the other packs. Also the only time I had a NSP work somewhat like the book was my old den.

I admit I liked how my troop growing up did it. No restrictions on being a PL. You could be reelected as many times as the patrol wanted you, or until you moved up to the Leadership Corps. SPL did have 2 restrictions: A. Must have been a PL and B. must be First Class or higher. rationale for those requirements was 1) you needed some experience as a PL to be able to mentor and work with them and 2) You really needed to have mastered all the basic Scout skills in order to teach them. Yes, APLs were appointed by the PL. Troop level staff had a restriction: must be chosen from the Leadership Corps or be eligible to be in the Leadership Corps. And the "have been a PL and be First Class" was needed to be in the LC.

@@Stosh No worries. That was me lamenting. Both the wife and I are concerned about this Webelos, her since it is one of her Scouts, me as a potential ASM for him. And we both see where the family camping is going on the Cub Level, and the pack encourages Webelos' parents to step away, prevent siblings from coming etc. I really do not like siblings tagging along on Webelos only events, nor having parents acting like parents. But I admit am a bit hypocritical at the moment. Troop has a survival camp out that Webelos are invited to attend. Wife feels obligated to attend with her den since she is the WDL. doesn't matter that the old WDL (now TDL), the CM and the ACM will be there. It's her den her responsibility. And I will be with the troop that weekend. So we have no one to watch the Bear. Guess who is going. On a positive note, he's been building survival shelters for over a year now with his brothers an by himself. And when he found out about the survival camp out his brothers are going on, he's been begging, pleading, and building even more shelters. Yes, last camp out, after all the fun stuff was done, he was building shelters. Ditto in the backyard. But I know it's a bad precedent that I don't like. In all honesty we have 2 like that in the troop already. One more so because of his mom. Overprotective, drop-everything to protect her "baby." I honestly think Mom has the harder time when he is away then him. The other is an ASM's kid. Sometimes he is OK, and does very well. Other times, he has break downs.

DON'T. GO. THERE! (emphasis) Wife has a Webelos who has some emotional/maturity issues. If dad or mom is not there, he has a meltdown. Even with mom or dad there, meltdowns have happened. While I believe there is more to it than maturity, The wife and I don't think the Webelos is ready for Boy Scouts at this time.

Council can probably help, and that's IF they kept records. My first den had some issues in that the records were NOT being recorded by the council. I hand delivered multiple ARs, and when it came time for their records, it was not showing up on the reports. Ticked off the SE when he made a comment about Cub Advancement not being done in my district at a commissioners' meeting, and had to tell him they were not being recorded at the council level. How I handled that situation, and others, was SCOUTNET. I just imputed the data just before they crossed over so their records would be correct.

Yep, VERY hard to break a precedent. Oldest has his AOL plaque hanging up, and really could care less. Middle son at the moment sees big brother's, wants one, and is going on and on how he completed his last requirement for AOL. As for parents being more concerned about their choices than the kids' picks, It's going to get interesting when they get into Boy Scouts.

Looks like we will need to do something when one pack's Webelos Cross Over. Had a brief conversation on summer camp, and several of the parents want to tag along, not a scouters but as parents. One dad commented how his son isn't ready for summer camp by himself, and one mom stated that since they joined Cubs as Tigers, the family has done all of the camp outs. Another family went to a Webelos weekend in a camper. They made the comment that another troop has no problem with parents, including moms, camping with them. Had to comment that the hardest part is moving from being a Cub Scout leader to a Boy Scouter because you need to learn to step back and let the youth run things and make mistakes. Heck my wife, who should know better, is complaining because the Scout working with her den is having communications challenges. Me thinks it will get interesting

Only CO that I know about that doesn't allow camping at the Cub Scout level is the LDS church. In my neck of the woods, I actually lost a Cub and his family my first year as a DL because "you don't camp enough." And my pack was one of the most active ones with 3 pack camp outs per year. I admit, I initially was concerned about the new program. It was radically different and I knew it would take heavy pre-planning in order to execute it. BUT after hearing what my sons are goign through, I do like it, and think the 2015 program is better, just needed time to for leaders to readjust. You can not implement a radical change in a program in 1 year. Heck you need about 3 years: one to implement the new program, one to tweak it and work out the challenges, and one year to perfect it. IMHO national is reacting too soon. At my RTs when it was being unveiled, I not only emphasized the changes, but constantly emphasized planning, planning, planning. I knew from reading the changes that planning would be the key. IT IS PLANNING INTENSIVE (emphasis). The pack I'm associated with, and my wife is the WDL for, is essentially ignoring the new 11/30/16 changes and following the 6/1/15 program because A) those requirements are in their books and it will cause confusion and B) they already made plans for the year and do not want to redo any planning already done. Heck the majority of the Webelos IIs finished the last activity badge's requirement for AOL, and will be crossing over on January 2nd. The pack my troop is associated with is essentially doing the same thing. The Webelos IIs are almost done with the AOL and ready to Cross Over. Their WDL is not changing anything. From the quick chat I had last nite, most of the DLs didn't know a thing abut the changes, and the CM isn't promoting the changes. He's continueing with the plans they made last summer.

"AWESOME! TOTALLY AWESOME!"