Eagle94-A1

May I quote the late William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the man who saved the BSA in 1979 for rule #3. Regarding Scouts, adults should "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" The successful troops I've been in all these years have followed that mantra. I'm use to sitting in my chair drinking coffee. Only the current troop I am with and one other had these type of adult issues.

I'm not a fan of by-laws because they are extremely legalistic, and someone can argue that according to XYZ rule they met the requirements, do whatever event, etc. In fact it's already happened. We have two Scouts who "earned" their Tenderfoot. But there was a lot of "discussion" about the requirements by their parents, and the SM signed off despite his, and other Scouters', reservations because of the legelese in advancment policy. Personally I do NOT like adults signing off on the S-T-2-1 requirements Since it's A) taking responsibility away from the PLs, Instructors, SPL, etc and B) The Scouts are better judges of other Scouts' abilities than the adults. Unfortunately one ASM, who lookes like he will become SM in the future, had a bad expereince as a Scout. Apparently he was denied Tenderfoot twice by the then allowed youthled BOR. Only when the adults intervened for the thrid BOR did he finally get Tenderfoot. My point in mentioning the Scout in question to the SM and ASM briefing me and the other adult who did not know about the meeting was to point out how making such a rule is nonsense. Sadly they did not see it that way. As for apologizing to the Scout, I do not know what for. He was not involved in the conversation, other than his name being mentioned by the SM or ASM as needing help camping. All I did was mention that the rule would still not apply since he is already Tenderfoot.

I do not think any of the youth know a thing about this yet. And I agree, it's not youth led. Scouts are not being given responsibility. What ticks me off is that we had this discussion a little over a year ago, some things were done to make it more youth led, AND IT WAS WORKING! Was it perfect? NO. Was it chaotic? YES. Did the Scouts make mistakes? ABSOLUTELY! And did they learn from those mistakes? YES INDEED! Did they have room to improve? OF COURSE THEY DID! But apparently the change is not fast enough for some folks, especially the new parents because I have heard them complain about how things are different from Cub Scouts. One mentor of mine said it takes 3 years to get a troop started. One year to get started, make mistakes, and see what is needed etc. Another year to fine tune it. And a third year establish customs, traditions, and procedures to pass along.

Well here's another update. There was leaders' meeting at the camp out this past weekend. It was suppose to have been a weekday, but that didn't come through. All but 2 adults were at this impromptu meeting, me and one other. I admit I am a bit miffed because this is the second time they had a meeting on a camp out that I was unable to attend. And the SM and ASM who briefed us last nite both knew I wanted to talk about the troop situation at this meeting. But there is nothing I can do. I do not know what happened this weekend on the camp out, but something did regarding the new Scouts. Long story short, we will be taking those Scouts under a certain rank out of their current patrols, creating a NSP and having the adults, you read that right ADULTS, teach these guys how to set up tents, cook, the T-2-1 skills, etc. Yep they will be camping near the adults, cooking with adults, etc on camp outs. And the new Scouts we are getting in December will be joining them. Once they hit a certain rank, they get integrated into the rest of the troop.Originally it was mentioned once they get Tenderfoot, they get integrated. When one Scout's name was mentioned as needing the help, I reminded the adults he's already Tenderfoot, and it would not affect him. That's when they said Second Class. Since my middle son may be affected, he's Tenderfoot, I encouraged him tonite to finish ASAP his Second Class. He has some motivation, he wants to do the Appalachian Trail this summer, and needs to be First Class to go. Hopefully the backpacking trip this weekend will put his butt in gear. I know he wass tired of Cub Scouts, and has commented on how the newer Scouts act. It looks like the NSP will become; Webelos 3. I did not tell him what the adults want to do. Then again they may not do it to him since he was appointed APL of his patrol. Plus the adults thought he was already Second Class. I'm backing away. I'll maintain my registration, and go camping when needed. And help those Scouts with MBs who come to me. But that's pretty much it.

I've seen first hand what happens when Scouts who had Cub leaders "Forget about the requirement and pass him anyway." or got rather "creative" or "sea lawyery" in meeting AOL requirements so the Cub could move to Boy Scouts, and and it is not pretty. Out of the den we got just like that, we lost 3 outright,have one we have not seen since summer camp, have 1 who will not camp, and 2 who won't camp unless a parent is with them, and will sneak into parents tent at night. It's gotten to the point that the adults in the troop are reconsidering doing an NSP for the group, and having adults teach them how to do things before reintergration with the rest of the troop. Sad thing is that my youngest and his freinds will be affected since they have not met the proposed rank requirements for reintergration. Middle son is already complaining the campouts of late are boring, and skipped this past weekend where all this came about in order to go backpacking this weekend. Do the right thing talk to the parents, and let them and the Scout decide.

Even having another adult is not always safe. I was with 2 other adults and 3 other Scouts in the situation I had with the "Scout" above. Long story short until the 3 other youth told the contingent leaders the truth, that they snuck out after curfew and when we caught them and tried to take them back and they ran off, we were being blamed for allowing youth to be out on the college campus after the conference's lights out. Yep, only when the other youth told the truth were the 3 adults believed.

Sadly, YP and 2 deep do not cover everything. Nor is everyone in Scouting a true 'Scout.' We had a situation where one of our female Scouters was in the shower house during the scheduled time, which was after youth lights out. One youth was caught being a peeping Tom by her and she reported him. The Scout accused her of making a pass at him when confronted with being out after hours and being around the shower house. Because it was a case of "he said, she said," she had her membership as a volunteer permanently revoked by national and placed in the ineligible volunteer files. He got a slap on the wrist for being out after hours I have personal experience with this "Scout," and his attempt to lie himself out of a situation. I can vouch for that. Where there is a will there is a way.

Worst case scenario, one Life Scout back in the day was denied Eagle because when the council checked their records after his EBOR, they had him listed as a First Class Scout still. Thankfully between his handbook and the Advancement Reports that were indeed turned in, he was approved.

Sorry for the confusion. let me try and clarify. Not only do we have folks thinking 11-17 yo Scouting will become "Family camping" with siblings being able to tag along, but also that if there are no female Scouters attending, as long as dad of the female Scout attends, there is no YP violation since it is 'family camping." When I tried to explain the Venturing YP policies, i.e. female adult must attend, I'm told "no because as long as the dad attends, it's family camping."

Yes it is allowed for Cub Scouts. But I'm talking at the 11-17 yo Scout level. Already have folks mention how if they cannot get females to camp with the girls, or camp in general since some troops have stated they will go coed anyway, that as long as dad is camping, daughter can camp too. Which as some know from Venturing / Exploring experience, that is not the case.

Additionally, some of the same folks thinks that since Cub Scout family camping has no requirements on the genders of the adults attending, i.e. all dads could camp with their sons and daughters or all moms camp with with their sons and daughters, that if no ladies can attend a camp out, as long as the female Scout's dad is in attendance, it will be allowed. All because BSA is using "Family Scouting."

Actually have folk in my district who believe that the 11-17 year old program will have a new role for parents and younger siblings because the BSA keeps using "Family." They think it will be a continuation of Cub Scouts.

Not only is training needed, but mentoring as well. and even more important, A WILLINGNESS TO LEARN! We have one parent who is a wilderness survival freak. Been to multiple survival schools and programs, certified to teach some of the levels with one program, etc. But zero experience as a Boy Scout or Boy Scout leader. Still in Cub Scout leader mode: complaining the boys aren't doing some things, jumping in and doing things for the boys, etc. Trying to talk top him is a chore as he won't listen.

I've done USS ALABAMA, USS YORKTOWN as well as the USS KIDD as a Scout, Scouter, and employee (yeah I did nite time tours back in the day ) The KIDD may be smaller, but the restoration to WWII status is 99.5% accurate (Yes I know what the Korean War item that was added to the KIDD is that cannot be removed is )They have the best overnight program. Although I admit to some bias. A lot of blood, sweat, tears and money have gone into restoring the KIDD.

well if you are adding food joints to. then MOTHERS restaurant for an Everything Po'Boy. Regarding WWII Museum, I went there twice when it was still the D-Day Museum, and still have not seen everything. MUST GO BACK FOR A FEW DAYS Me personally, I'd rather go next door to the University of New Orleans' Eisenhower Center and go through their archives.

While many pros are Eagles, there is a substantial number who have little to no experience, especially at the national level. When I was a DE, while many had Scouting experience, the ones that stayed around usually didn't. At my national owned scout shop, neither of my managers had any Scouting experience as a youth or adult, save being an employee. Until I started recruiting friends to work with me, no one had any youth experience, and 1 coworker had experience as a den leader only. And that moves up the organization. Other examples would be the marketing folks BSA have used in the past. Anyone remember the dog wearing the anniversary "bandanna" or the Arrow of Light belt buckle? Also when you become a professional, scouting is no longer a "movement for youth" but a business. You begin to lose focus on what is truly important, bringing the best possible program to youth, and begin focusing on goals that result in pay raises and promotions. Scouts become membership numbers, advancement becomes a metric to show how well the program is doing, and volunteers are to be used until they either become a nuisance, or burn out. As a DE you either adapt, or leave. And even if you stick to you idealism, and get promoted, the idealism will eventually hurt you. One extremely good pro managed to keep his idealism and be successful. Then he found out about some shenanigans, reported it, and was rewarded with a "promotion" that essentially ended his career. He went from a DFS with 2 field directors and finance director under him,with approximately 14-16 folks under the directors, to a SE with 1 FD and 3 DEs.

Bit of a drive, approx 1.25 hours away, but Salman Scout Reservation is in Perkinstion, MS and is the council camp. City Park had a campsite called Scout Island, but do not know if they still allow camping. I haven't camped there since 1985. I believe the National WWII Museum has an overnite program. I'd call and find out. Another option, see what affilaited COs with yours are down there and work out something where you stay there and/or do something with the other troop. Other things to do in New Orleans are the Museum of Art, Audubon Zoo, and The Aquarium. There was the Old Spanish Fort Trail if your troop is into hiking and learning history. That one starts in the Mid City area and ends at the Old Spanish Fort on Lake Pontchartrain. Another trail is the Carrolton Trail that takes you along the oldest streetcar line in the US down St. Charles Avenue. Nice thing about that one is that you can park in one location, hike to the end of the trail, and take the street car back. About 1.25 - 1.5 hours away is Baton Rouge. There is the USS KIDD, a Fletcher Class WWII destroyer that has been restored. They also have an overniter program, has excellent tours ( night tours are better than day tours since you have all night to explore the ship AND they take you into areas normally off limits due to time), and will work with you if you stay multiple nights. There are other museums there as well, but I'm partial to the KIDD since I worked there in grad school. Good luck Other things to do i

Actually William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt was a Scout in Denmark, earning teh Knight Scout rank, their Eagle Scout, and went to the first 2 WSJs as part of the Danish contingent.

IMHO we got too many ASMs in my sons' troop. And some have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to not only survive in the outdoors, but also work with the Scouts. And some do not. One thing I am seeing having so many adults: adults thinking camp outs are covered so we are not having enough adults with the KSAs attending. We are ending up with one or two experienced adults and a bunch of new parents with nothing but Cub Scout experience.

Trust me, being a Boy Scout is nothing compared to being a male nurse. Only thing harder is being a male certified nurse midwife. Yeah, we have one of those at my hospital.

Growing up, as a PL my mentors were the two SPLs I served under, and the older Scouts in the Leadership Corps. When I was ASPL, it was the SPL, and sometimes when they were home from college or military leave the former Scouts I worked under. I can count on one hand the number of times I was mentored by an adult. It was when I was acting in the SPL role, and it was the SM doing the mentoring. The more adults involved in a troop, the more problems will arise.The committee doesn't need to be involved in supervising the leaders. They need to support them by getting the resources they need to have their program.

No, not my intention at all. And I want to apologize. In rereading my post, it comes across as very negative. Part of that is the ADD. One problem we suffer from is our minds are going a mile-a-minute, and we can switch from one topic to another, and it makes sense to us. But when expressed,it makes no sense. Part of it is my own frustration with this situation, as you will see. So How did I go from "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." to "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." to "...why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering." ? And it relates to the topic at hand. Back in the day, Webelos, heck Cub Scouts in general, were limited in their outdoor experiences. "Dad and Lad" was the only time Cubs could camp, Webelos could camp with a troop 1 time. My WDL, started the transition by giving us more repsonibilties, visiting a troop, and then modeling the patrol method. When we finally camped, we were integrated into patrols that we later joined. FYI, New Scout Patrols didn't exist until 1989, and some troop still do not use them because they found traditional, mixed-aged patrols better.Anyway that is the "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." This is where the "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." comes in. After Webelos were allowed to do more outdoor activities,and not limited to"dad and lad" type stuff. My troop had a camp out planned that almost turned into a fiasco. Night before the camp out, we discovered tents, tarps, lanterns, and other gear destroyed. Long story short, another group at the CO used out brand new fiberglass shed as a dartboard. Instead of canceling, we decided to turn the weekend into a quasi-wilderness survival camp. It was a huge success and morphed over time due to ideas from the PLC. To help aid in the transition, we provided den chiefs to the feeder pack we eventually got. This also covers part of the boy-led because the adults wanted to cancel initially. Now to the "I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering. " Again this is more commentary on my sons' troop more than anything.If you search some of my previous posts from a year or longer ago, you would see that the troop has had some issues with adults taking over from the Scouts. A little over a year ago, things started to get better. that was due to a change in SMs and a meeting of adults to get us on one page. The improvements were going well until this last batch of parents came in. Orientation meeting was in one ear and out the other. Trying to chat, mentor, etc with multiple people doing the talking has not worked.Several of the adults who have tried to talk to them have either backed away, helping only when absolutely needed, or quit outright. The one who quit outright is a real loss because A, he did high adventure andB, he helped some of the adults sitting on the fence last year about the Patrol Method and Youth led see what can happen when you " Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" The new parents keep interfering and not letting Scouts do what they need to do. Best example is the adults attempting to fix a problem that really did not need fixing.Instead of listening to the Scouts, the adults ended up destroying a tarp. Another example with this bunch of new parents would be when the new Scouts were still Webelos. One of the Boy Scouts, working with the SM, two CMs, and two WDLS was suppose to have worked with to different dens from different packs on Castaway. Instruction was going to be done at their meeting location. Long story short, the adults ignored the meeting plans, the other den, and the Boy Scout to do their own thing. The WDL was embarrased, and the visiting WDL invited the Boy Scout to their place to finish up, which he did. Then the meeting before the camp out, the adults getytheSPL upset because they finally realized that they never had any instruction and were not prepared . Again the adults interfered, and it caused problems for their sons. The other den had a blast. A third example that thankfully the SPL handled in a firm, but polite manner was these same new parents trying to change 2 months of meetings so that their sons could possibly get a MB. SPL stated plans were made, the Scouts need to prepare for the next two campouts, and hey will have time to earn the MB some other time. So that is how I got from Point A to B to C. I'm sure you are now understanding this since many ADHD suffers are the same way. No, not my intention at all. And I want to apologize. In rereading my post, it comes across as very negative. Part of that is the ADD. One problem we suffer from is our minds are going a mile-a-minute, and we can switch from one topic to another, and it makes sense to us. But when expressed,it makes no sense. So How did I go from "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." to "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." to "...why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering." ? And it relates to the topic at hand. Back in the day, Webelos, heck Cub Scouts in general, were limited in their outdoor experiences. "Dad and Lad" was the only time Cubs could camp, Webelos could camp with a troop 1 time. My WDL, started the transition by giving us more repsonibilties, visiting a troop, and then modeling the patrol method. When we finally camped, we were integrated into patrols that we later joined. FYI, New Scout Patrols didn't exist until 1989, and some troop still do not use them because they found traditional, mixed-aged patrols better.Anyway that is the "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." This is where the "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." comes in. After Webelos were allowed to do more outdoor activities,and not limited to"dad and lad" type stuff. My troop had a camp out planned that almost turned into a fiasco. Night before the camp out, we discovered tents, tarps, lanterns, and other gear destroyed. Long story short, another group at the CO used out brand new fiberglass shed as a dartboard. Instead of canceling, we decided to turn the weekend into a quasi-wilderness survival camp. It was a huge success and morphed over time due to ideas from the PLC. To help aid in the transition, we provided den chiefs to the feeder pack we eventually got. This also covers part of the boy-led because the adults wanted to cancel initially. Now to the "I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering. " This is more commentary on my sons' troop more than anything.If you search some of my previous posts from a year or longer ago, you would see that the troop has had some issues with adults taking over from the Scouts. A little over a year ago, things started to get better. that was due to a change in SMs and a meeting of adults to get us on one page. The improvements were going well until this last batch of parents came in. Orientation meeting was in one ear and out the other. Trying to chat, mentor, etc with multiple people doing the talking has not worked. They keep interfering and not letting Scouts do what they need to do. Best example is the adults attempting to fix a problem that really did not need fixing.Instead of listening to the Scouts, the adults ended up destroying a tarp. Another example with this bunch would be when the Scouts were still Webelos. One of the Boy Scouts, working with the SM, two CMs, and two WDLS was suppose to have worked with to different dens from different packs on Castaway. Instruction was going to be done at their meeting location. Long story short, the adults ignored the meeting plans, the other den, and the Boy Scout to do their own thing. The WDL was embarrased, and the visiting WDL invited the Boy Scout to their place to finish up, which he did. Then the meeting before the camp out, the adults getytheSPL upset because they finally realized that they never had any instruction and were not prepared . Again the adults interfered, and it caused problems. A third example that thankfully the SPL handled in a firm, but polite manner was these same new parents trying to change 2 months of meetings so that their sons could possibly get a MB. So that is how we got from Point A to B to C. I'm sure you are now understanding this since many ADHD suffers are the same way.

Sadly, my PLC only meets twice a year, and one of those is the annual planning conference. Current SPL tried to have them 1 per month, but encountered some challenges They did meet twice in his 6 months. Part of the issue is the Scouts. They are use to a smaller 1- 2 patrol troop. Plus they are use to adults intervening. part of it is the adults. The ones that want to attend don't have the time.

That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time. When Webelos got to do more, my troop started doing the above. Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas, but for a troop without a feeder pack for a long time, it was extremely successful. I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering.

Question for ya @WisconsinMomma, what was the Webelos program like for your 13 year old? Did the DL treat it like a continuation of Cub Scouts, or started treating it more like a Boy Scout patrol? I ask because it seems from my experience that how the DL treats the Webelos is what makes the difference. Dens that begin transitioning Webelos I see have better rates of Scouts staying in the program, adapting to Scouts better etc. I know the dens my older 2 were in did just that, and there are no problems with them. Ditto with new Scouts who were in one of my Eagle's den. Cub Scouts in a good Webelos program should not have a big transition to make their first year. I too have... SQIRRELL Seriously, I too have ADHD. Those checklists were, and continue to be a Godsend.