Eagle94-A1

Going to go off on a tangent. And moderators, if this is going too far off base, let me know. A recent story I was told keeps hitting me when I see this thread. Not only should parents stay out of they way, but I'm thinking sometimes it's a good thing for adult Scouters to miss something so their sons can experience stuff with out them around. I say that because I was told about a Scout whose dad has been on every single trip since he has been a Cub Scout. Heck, the kid has never done anything outside of Scouting without either his dad or mom attending. Now the son is getting ready to graduate and is terrified of leaving home and being by himself. Scout has been offered several out of state athletic scholarships, but will not take them because he is afraid to leave home. Scout won't even look at in-state colleges, including the one where his aunt lives. She has offered to put him up. Instead he wants either to go tot he local private college, or go to the community college, and then transfer to an in-state college he can do online courses so he can stay home with dad.

To quote the Emperor, ' EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT!"

Oh man, this would be funny if it didn't hit close to home. We had one camp out with an extremely similar scenario. We were at the local scout camp and had several families show up. It wasn't suppose to be a family camp out, but it turned into one. Between that camp out and the Tiger and his family camping at camporee with older brother, I've seen the frustration with the older Scouts. When I mentioned about the families causing problems, I was told the troop "needs to be family friendly." I know my sons and one of their friends were not interested in this month's camp out because it was another "family " one since it was in conjunction with the joint pack-troop fundraiser. They rather go backpacking the following week.

Yes, the original 22 Boy Scouts at Brownsea were divided into 4 patrols: the Curlews, Ravens, Bulls, and Wolves. BP experimented with both 5 man and 6 man patrols. Eagle94-a1 Cocky Curlew, BA22

Have you asked your sons what they want you to do? When moms show up, the dynamics do change, whether consciously or unconsciously. When the 1989 decision to allow female ASMs and SM came, we did get one long time female MC switch over to ASM. She knew the deal: adults do not interfere unless safety is concerned, and acted accordingly. But her two sons DID act differently on the trips she attended. Somehow it got back to her that her sons didn't really want her around all the time because they felt she was hovering over them. She backed off and only did 3 camp outs after that in the 5 years she remained in the troop. two involved her hobby, cycling, and one was due to not having enough adults able to go, a 10 day trip to summer camp. That was the unconscious. My conscious one is a trip that we planned for almost a year that turned into a family camp out. Long story short, the mom's complained about the weather, and would not let the siblings do some of the activities. When the siblings started whining about the Scouts doing stuff and they couldn't, the mom's called off the activity. They were suppose to be support, and when they cancelled, it ruined the entire trip. And not only did we plan it for almost a year, it took us 7 hours one way to get there. Additionally one of the siblings caused $1500 to $2000 worth of damage ( this was almost 30 years ago, you can adjust for inflation) which caused us to be banned from the place we were staying at. Troop never did another family camp until every single Scout on that trip either left or aged out. Sadly my troop IS adult led. That is something I have been working on for several years. This time last year, we had major problems. They finally got worked out, and while not 100% Scout led, the batch of adults for adult led started seeing the light. Strides were made, and the troop was a heck of a lot better than just 6 months before. The first batch of new Scouts and parents we got in January were not a problem. Their WDLs trained them well and they integrated smoothly. This second batch however, has been extremely rough. The adults do not want to let go control and let their kids grow up. They want to control every aspect of their sons' Scouting. OK we got one Scout with a medical condition requiring dad to stay with him at night. Soif dad cannot go he cannot either. That's valid. But we got moms who will not let the sons camp without her or dad. We got a dad who lets his son sneak into the tent with him. So yes, the troop is adult led. A lot of factors were involved in it too.

It could also be that they see something they look forward to being so watered down that they do not see the purpose. When the Scouts are polite and tell the new parents that they got it, and the parents ignore them, so the older Scouts just walk away and let the parents do their work. Sadly in my instance the "Come to Jesus" meetings, yes plural" have had no effect and the new parents are doing what they want. Heck now the parents have some financial influence they "gave" the troop $3000 from a joint pack/troop fundraiser. Troop only sold $600 worth of tickets, while the pack, which has done it for 3 or 4 years now, sold over $6000 worth. But the troop cancelled their planed camping trip to work the fundraiser, and provided 95+% of the manpower to do the fundraiser. SO the helicopters, who ran the event, are giving us 1/2 of the money, as long as we buy equipment. From the sounds of it, it is equipment THEY want to buy. Waiting for a Scouters' meeting to find out what is going on.

Or the Scouts are so fed up with adults taking over and overruling what they want that they say "WHATEVER." Man this is starting to sound like some of the stuff going on in my troop in the Helicopter parent thread.

In 2016, my troop did have two separate backpacking trips. One was the AT, and the requirements were First Class or higher, and do two of the three prep trips. The only exception was an ASM who didn't do any of the prep trips, and had not backpacked in over 18 years. He was the one with major issues, to the point that he collapsed on the trail. Now the standard is do the prep trips OR completed a previous AT trip. I know I got my work cut out for me if I can schedule the vacation. The second trip was the weekend of the AT. Anyone could go, and it was much, much shorter. Out of 18 Scouts who were not on the AT, only 4 decided to do the second, shorter trip. The Scouts did not want to bother with the non-AT trip because it was not the AT. Funny thing is, all 4 of those Scouts did the AT this year, and the other adult I backpacked with. We had 2 crews on the AT, and it strained resources. part of it is the WFA requirement. Currently we only have 3 folks with it, and only 2 could go that week.

How ironic. I bet the folks who came up with this never read B-P's Aids to Scoutmasters since Scouting is NOT suppose to be like school. In fact, I found quotes from BP who said school teachers should not be Scouters since they would try to turn the program into school. If that is what the current WB course teaches, I will never take it as it is so far from BP's vision. And if that is what new Scouters are being taught, then I see an uphill battle on keeping traditional Scouting alive. My thoughts on quality control is MENTORING. Training only gets you the basics. Without experience training only gets you so far. That is why experienced Scouters need to work with new Scouters. It worked with me and I've mentored many new leaders over the years. But it is a two way street. Not only do you need to have experienced Scouters who want to mentor, but also inexperienced Scouters who are willing to be mentored. That's the current situation in my troop. We have a bunch of new parents with 4.5 years of Cub Scouter experience, but zero Boy Scout or Boy Scouter experience. Several have completed SM Specific and IOLS. But they still have no idea despite the training. They are constantly questioning why things are done, why their sons are not advancing as fast as others, etc. They do not want to talk rationally, they confront and complain. They are not willing to listen.

Tell me about it. I still have not told SWMBO how much her uniform actually cost, nor how long it took to collect the pieces (hint: as soon as oldest was a Tiger, I started collecting pieces and she became an ADL when youngest was a Wolf). Suffice to say it was a Christmas present, and the only one she got, that year. With the exception of the "NC" everything is period authentic. Do not know if she will keep it after youngest crosses over or not. But if not, it will be sold on the Big Auction Site or donated to a museum. And you would think NC would be easy to find.

Grant you it's been 20+ years, but Youlbury International Scout Campsite ( world's oldest continually used Scout camp by the way ) didn't have individual cubicals when I worked there. Regarding informing the parents, that concerns me, and over here that would be a major Youth Protection violation.

True. But if national and councils can use reproductions for various functions, why not those in the field? I've been to Jambo and a NOAC where reproductions were being worn. Ditto at council events.

We have a unit that still use the red and whites. They have someone producing repros for them. I got one of their state repros for the wife's uniform.

Baptist church locally has said "NO!" to girls because they view the Boy Scout troop as an outreach ministry for boys. None of the adults involved in any position are female. 2 other troops are borderline on accepting girls are not. The adults, and Scouts too, have major reservations about accepting girls. My sons' troop has no problem with going coed. In fact they are looking to merge their Frontier Girls program with the troop. Yes, my troop has said they will go coed despite what national says because of lack of resources and manpower. Heck the only reason Frontier Girls is still active is because they got an aged out girl as an assistant adult volunteer now.

Yes, it is mostly mothers, especially those who were den leaders and are use to being in charge, but also a few dads as well.

They attend MB weekends, colleges, etc. Long story short,if the MBC says it's earned they get credit. Good news is that the troop got fresh blood in adults, and looks to get some more. Hoping it turns around. Update: We now have a date for a meeting of all adults. It will be during an event the Scouts will be at. It's going to be intersting. Also, the old saying he who controls the purse controls everything appears to be true. And I think I know how the helicopters are gaining control. We had a joint fundraiser with the pack, and the folks running it are the helicopter parents who just crossed over. Long story short, pack sold more tickets, but we provided the 95% of the manpower during the event. Helicopters running the event decided to give the troop more money IF the troop uses it to buy the equipment they want the troop to have. Here is the the first funny, helicopter parent is making all kinds of comments about taking care of gear, if you break it you buy it etc, and the Scouts are rolling their eyes because they have heard this before. And the system of maintaining the equipment is very adult oriented and DOES NOT WORK as this is the same system that has been in place since before oldest joined. There is no individual accountability as if something breaks, it is very easy to slip it back into the system. My suggestion is to tell the patrols how much they have to spend and let them decide on gear. Also insatead of having troop gear, brak it down into individual patrols. Sadly my idea is being ignored. Hopefully the new PLC will bring this up at their first meeting and can get the adutls to see the light. Another funny. One of our new Scouts earned Second Class last night. He's the first to do so. After the meeting, one of the helicopters goes up to the SM complaining about how her son is not Second Class and how can this other guy earn his if her son hasn't. When explained, she then goes on about why hasn't his book been signed off since he 's done the stuff too. When that too is explained, she goes off in a huff.

I got the specialties and I got the standards. Some are old CSPs from when I was a DE, one is a 100th anniversary CSP, and one is an Eagle CSP. The anniversary and Eagle are duplicates in my collections. I have one CSP that means a lot. Not only is it numbered, it is a gift. I've seen a few folks wear theirs, but not me. But the one that means the most is from my last year on camp staff at the camp I grew up at. A very limited run celebrated an international encampment we had. It's so rare, that last time I checked the CSP books, it was not even listed. But that is not the reason why I saved it when I could wear it. It's because it is a memopry of my old camp.

Don't go there. So much has been lost, it is incredible. Last time I taught ITOLS, I had to go through my collection and make copies to provide the info they need. Today's handbook and field book are shadows of what they were when William 'Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt wrote them.

I agree with partial funding, you want folks to have skin in the game. I've seen first hand folks who get a free ride, and do not take full advantage. Heck one guy got a scholarship from council to attend, only to back out at the last minute. Talk about making folks angry. And if you go with it, make it anonymous. There can be hard feelings for those who do not get it. I received a full scholarship for youth training back in the day, and my friend was ticked off. We worked it out, we each got 1/2. Since he paid for 1/2 the week, when an opportunity to do something else came up, he turned it down because he was vested into taking the training.

I know when my father walked out, my mom was very glad I had postive male role models in the form of my SM and ASMs. Over the years, I lost track of the number of single moms looking for male role models. Most of the Troops I've been in had all male direct contact Scouters, females have been on the committee. I've seen one outstanding unit with a female SM. Troop growing up had a female ASM once I became a Scouter, and she was fine. Grant you, she served on committee for a long number of years before becoming ASM. However I've seen female ASMs, and male ASMs too, that baby the Scouts, treating them as Cubs still.

Forgot to add, there are ways to permanently remove and intimidate opposition. My SE had one long time volunteer permanently removed from the BSA when he opposed the SE and some of his decisions. This act intimidated some of the opposition. It also caused some to feel hopeless, as if nothing could be done to get things back on track. When the new SE showed up, he cleaned house real quick.

My SE did NOT have the trust of those in the field. Best example of that was when he finally left. folks were throwing champagne parties to celebrate. He was able to maintain being SE, and not get removed from his position, because he got "Yes Men" to be in key council positions. Those who opposed him were eventually removed from the council executive board. Funny thing is that when we got a new SE, those who were removed from the board got reinstated over time. One thing I learned being in 5 different councils and under a bunch of pros; every situation is different and every person is different. There wil be those who manipulate the system to get what they want.

The people to be appointed to the nominating committee have to be approved by the SE on the council level, and both the SE, or is designate, and the DE. When I was a DE, my SE would not allow any of the folks suggested on the district nominating committee, and as a result we didn't have one. Everyone on the list for positions were selected by the SE.

A few comments from a former pro. 1) While the council president selectes the nominating committee, the Scout Executive (SE) wields enormous power behind the scenes. I've seen good people who were proposed for council level position, but because they were not 'Yes Men" and the SE said they would be a bad choice. Even when those of us in the field wanted someone in particular. We currently have someone who would like to fill a district Key 3 role, but will not be allowed to serve in that role due to the SE. Like Tahawk, that position has been vacant for 2+ years. 2) While national does not control who is on district committees, the SE and DE do indeed play a large role. I know I was under pressure to get rid of some folks. While some I was able to keep, others were not put on the slate of candidates per the SE. Got around it by having the district chairman appoint them into position. 3) Do not know about the legal side, but do know that what DavidCO said happen in Chicago did indeed happen. many folks here and elsewhere reported about it.

I am no longer doing FOS and it is National's fault: The increase in registration is affecting me financially. $34 (we pay $1 extra for insurance), per person per year for 4 is $136 due at one time since both units charter at the same time. It would be $170 if my wife officially registered since becoming a WDL 3 years ago. However, since none of the applications had been processed over a 2 year period, despite paying the fee, she has said it aint worth the frustration. I will play Devil's Advocate for the council though: One reason why some councils may not have had town halls on the matter was due to how National told them they needed to go about it and when the deadline was. My SE was furious with how National not only wanted it done, with all three Key Three members reading a set script, but also with the time frame National gave them. National informed the councils they wanted these town hall done the day before many council jamboree contingents were set to leave. If you consider how many Key 3s staff the Jambo, many were already at the jambo site prepping when the orders were issued.Then all responses had to be submitted within 17 days after Jambo was finished (16 days for staff). I know my council had a hard time setting up the first one. I do not know if those who attended the second town hall that was extremeley last minute, 3 days notice for the meeting) had a chance to receive the surveys and complete them before the deadline. What I found interesting is that the video that needed to be watched, and the scripts that needed to be read, were posted on a national website in June, a full month before councils were notified about them it's almost as if National wanted limited responses to the surveys. Plus the surveys were very slanted towards accepting girls into the BSA. I remember answering almost every question with "NO, girls have GSUSA, and if they want a program more like the BSA, then they need to work on fixing their program" or words to that affect.