Eagle94-A1

Understatement. We had a group that started pushing back, but as the adults did more and took decisions away from them, they appear to have said "The heck with it."

David, First off, THANK YOU for doing the COR job likes it's suppose to be done. Sadly, in my 25 years as a Scouter, i can count on one hand how many did what they were suppose to do. All, This exact situation, having experienced Boy Scouters go back and help Webelos is something I too have seen done. ASM saw some challenges with the WDLs, and ended up becoming the WDL. Unlike David, the COR is a paper one with that pack & troop, so when the paperwork came across, it was signed automatically by the CO. One reason why I was thinking of going back to Cubs, to work with the Webelos and make the transition a lot better. The new Scouts from that pack, and especially the parents, are still in Cub Scout mode. Kinda sad when Scouts viewing some of the posts on Facebook that the new parents are making are saying 'we need to limit who can post on the facebook page," and " It's starting to turn into Cub Scouts."

Ah ringer patrols. True story, we had one troop put all their older Scouts, specifically all the ones who went to Philmont that summer into a single patrol. It was quite humorous in that they didn't do to well, and were in fact the lower half of the patrols. That was a few years back. Closest we had to a ringer this year was a combined patrol. Long story short, one patrol had the bare minimum to compete, 4 Scouts, and the other patrol had only 3. They merged into a 7 man patrol for the weekend. Last year one of the two merged patrols was 2nd overall while the other patrol was in the top 5 overall. I think think they turned in their orienteering scorecard without their name on it, and lost a bunch of points as a result. If the score sheet I think was theirs was indeed theirs, they would have been second or third overall, instead of the top 10.

I agree partially Stosh. I agree that you need to get the Scouts' input as to what events to do. They know what they like to do. I disagree with him in having them run events. That's because i feel the event is for them and they should be having fun. BUT I would not stop them from helping if that is what they want to do. In fact I had two JASMs from 1 troop run an event at my camporee due to mobility issues with their adults. I did camporee for 2 years. First year it was thrown together in 2 months since the person in charge dropped the ball and quit. I used the Scouts in my troop, and some in my church, as a sounding board. Many, but not all, of their ideas were used. Some we just didn't have the time to put together, After the campfire the first year, I had a campwide PLC to get feedback and ideas from the Scouts. Very productive, and almost all of their ideas from that meeting were used. We had a planning meeting in which Scouts were invited. Tweeks to the ideas from the PLC, and some different, better ideas that the Scouts at the meeting had were incorporated. We had a lot of folks leave after campfire the second year, so the second campwide PLC was not as robust, but lots of good ideas came about and there is a consensus on next year's theme; Pioneering. Now what did my Scouts like? They like the Air-to Ground signals event with a drone. The troop running it has a drone up and take pictures to show the guys what it actually appears. Plus the drone simulated arial responses. Another event was the three fires with no matches. Blowguns was popular, but they rather do archery. Qwazse mentions getting some influential folks to back the more adventurous camporee ideas. THAT IS 110% CORRECT!!!!! The idea from the Scouts was survival and getting away from the trailers. I had so many complaints about not having trailers from adults, that I said the heck with it. We had one troop that did backpack i though. I really wish I could have gotten them to push the no trailer idea.

National did just that, in the 1970s, and look what happened.

Boy can I relate. Still did some of the fun, but not alot to do. I tried Sea Scouts, but the ship was "interesting." What did it for me was OA. Got super active in the lodge.

From the Congressional Charter, The purposes of the corporation [bSA] are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Don't read anything about "youth"

Atlanta Area Council made the ad, and others, a few years back.

I attribute it to the DL. While I like the new program, it got watered down in December 2016. We had 2 batches of Webelos cross over: one in January, and one in April. Both groups started with the new, 2015 program. The January group had two outstanding WDLs who made the transition smooth.The April Group started with the June 2015 program, but 1/2 ended up using the easier December 2016 requirements to get AOL, and one had to get his Webelos Badge under the 2016 requirements! Some things the January DLs did were the following: 1) Took WDL training and IOLS instead of WLOT. Not only did we not have WLOT available, the idea was he wanted to know what Boy Scouts was like, might as well take the training. 2) Used the denner position and gave them responsibilities . Grant you the pack didn't use them until Webelos. 3) gave expectations to the Webelos. 4) Had a chat with the parents while is AWDL ( she became the WDL when he became a TigerDL) about how Boy Scouts is about growing, accepting responsibility, etc. Told the parents they need to start backing off and letting the Webelos do things on their own. He then reminded the parents they needed to back off when they started to interfere during the year he had them. Aside: I believe this was the #1 most important thing in the transition: getting the parents to back off and not hover. Every issue I've faced workign with Boy Scouts is new Scout parents interfering. That is a major issue with my current troop. 5) If it hasn't happened already, take them camping. I know LDS packs has limitations on that. 6) Hook up with a troop and camp with them. be advised, Good luck and have fun.

So, Scouting has been stressing, me out as of late as evidenced in other threads. Need to focus on the good things to keep me going a little longer. So this thread is POSITIVE, things that you think about when things go south. Or as SGT. Oddball would say, 'Knock it off with them negative waves." I'll start. 1) View of the lake this weekend at sunrise. The sun was barely over the trees, the fog was on the lake, and the only thing up and about was the geese. Wish I had a camera with me. 2) Middle son's costume in the costume contest. He came really close to getting third as the Grim Reaper. 1 vote difference. 3) Friend's son winning First Place in the costume contest. The kid missed the morning portion of camporee, but had a blast that afternoon. He was looking forward to the contest because his costume took several months to make, and he made it from scratch. Everyone agreed it was the best one. 4) Having an out of district unit attend camporee, because the events looked like fun and they wanted to try it. They had a blast and are planning on attending next year. 5) We had 3 troops and 1 Webelos Den in attendance that normally do not attend district/council events. Do not know why they decided to attend this year's district camporee but was glad they had a positive experience. Cubmaster is now planning to attend the Webeloree in the spring. And I believe the three troops will be back. 6) One of the Life Scouts is busting butt to finish his Eagle requirements before his 18th Birthday this month. Seeing him grow up and take responsibility is a great motivator for being a Scouter. So what are some of yours?

Was it Mark Twain that said, " There are lies. There are damned lies. And then there are statistics."

Had the meeting and it was in one ear and out the other. If you try to enforce it, you are the bad guy. Give you an example. One of the Scouts on 3 camp outs now has snuck back into his parents' tent or shelter. Try to correct the situation and dad doesn't do a thing to encourage doing the right thing. This weekend he sat the first nite next to his son's tent until he fell asleep. When I treid to get dad away, I was told "Do yo want me to leave, because if you force this we will." Now I had enough to deal with running camporee, and went to talk to the adults that would be with the troop about the situation. They all knew about it, had no problems and one commented "glad he isn't leaving the shelter, baby steps." I walked off thinking "THIS IS FREAKING BOY SCOUTS!" Had a chat with the SM about all this. He does not see any problems with siblings tagging along. Part of that is his daughter will tag along on occasion. He says as long as they stay out of the way it should not be a problem. But the siblings do not. His daughter has jumped right in and do activities with the boys. The Tiger I mentioned above I spotted hanging around another unit's Webelos, and was all over the place getting in the thick of things. This morning while the troop was trying to pack up, he starts kicking around his soccer ball into shelters. The Scouts get and start playing a kicking game with him until the APL spots this and get the Scouts back to work. When the APL tells him he needs to kick elsewhere and points in a direction wher he could go and not be in the way, the Tiger yells "NO!" and then kicks the ball back towards the shelters, actually hitting it with the ball. That's when I told him he needed to go else where. Anyway, it appears that the bulk of the adults. want it to be "Family Friendly." There is suppose to be a meeting with all the adults to set up some ground rules up. Don't know if they will get any input form the Scouts or not. I am staying with the troop until after the meeting. After that I don't know. I do know that one small, struggling troop will shortly need an ASM. Something my wife suggested, and I have been invited to do, is getting back involved with the OA as an associate chapter adviser. A third idea that popped up is starting a Venturing crew.Out of the 16+ year old Scouts, only 1 showed up, and he was getting frustrated with the younger guys. I saw him away from the rest of the troop and start ranting to himself to release tension . As for the 14-15 year olds, the usual suspects were there, but I do not know how they felt. But I am going to find out. I know when they did the AT, they were vibrant and alive, now bored out of their gourd.

From previous conversations with him, there were only 2 adults willing to camp. One had to bring the daughter at times, the other a Cub aged grandson. The grandson who tagged along is his nephew. Good question. Answer, they have never been asked. The troop has been very much adult led, not youth led. As soon as we begin starting getting on track, something happens.

Regarding camporee, due to size restrictions, 3 troops will be in the same campsite. Patrols will be lucky if they are 10' apart. And unfortunately I cannot convince the other adults to let their kids go 300' even before this last batch came in. Regarding Youth Protection, not only will you get called out, yuo will be reminded of "Family Camping," "Scouting is for the whole family," and the other family catchphrases used by national to promote going coed. Yes, that happened today.

Here's the irony. We have one troop that had helicopters take over. As their son's Eagled, they lessened their involvement to the point they scramble to get a 2nd adult at times to camp. They didn't recruit for several years, and were dying. Another friend of mine joined them, and is very slowly getting them on track. They got a btach of Webelos who had 2 good WDLs who really transitioned them well. The four that joined us are doing very well and no issues. So I was talking to the wife about Post #29. She made the comment that if the current troop wants to become Webelos 3s, I should go to the other troop once the SM steps down (probably between May and August 2018) and work for my friend as an ASM since he knows how things are supposed to be, and more importantly the new batch of parents know how things are suppose to be.

Well it just got escalated. Long story short, an online discussion noted how one of the new scouters is now bringing his wife and Tiger to the camporee this weekend. I made comments about how this is a Boy Scout event, and Cubs are not suppose to be there. Major pushback about how the troop had allowed 10-15 years ago siblings to camp with them, and other major pushback. Noted all the factors involved in why Cubs do not need to be there. More push back. Then 2 other private discussions on push back. One ASM of the troop is one of those pushing back. Apparently his troop growing up allowed siblings and did a lot of family camping. So he sees nothing wrong and thinks I am overreacting. He also stated " you are fighting a battle you will lose." The troop is no longer fun anymore. One good friend has backed off because of the new parents. Officially a second has backed off a lot due to other obligations. But I think he is disgusted with things and doesn't want to deal with the drama. And a 3rd experienced Scouter has expressed a desire to transfer to another troop. I'll be active a little longer, long enough for a leaders' meeting the current SM wants because of all the crap going on. I know he is tired of all the garbage going on, and hopefully he will get things straight. But it is definitely no longer fun. I already told my oldest I am backing away as It is stressing me out.

New one today. So the SPL and SM both mentioned after 1 incident that if the Scouts do not take care of their tents, which were donated to the troop, they could stay under the stars or sleep under tarps so that they could learn why they need to take care of the tents. They didn't take care of the tents. SPL announced that they troop will be under tarps this weekend. The helicopters are complaining because it is taking advancement opportunity away from their Scouts and 'Punishing Scouts is violating BSA policy and that taking their tents away is way overboard." Funny thing is I always thought Scouting was a place for Scouts to screw up, live with their consequences, and learn from their mistakes. So glad the Charter Organization did not take me up on the offer to take over as SM. Heck even SWMBO commented on that, and stated she knows a troop that will be losing their SM soon, and the guy to take over will need help.

These two made my day

My replies in Red

So I ran into an old friend today who is also involved in Scouting. Sounds like he is having similar issues with helicopter parents like my troop is having, except worse. He said One helicopter in his troop has caused a long time Scouter to quit as he cannot take the hovering and passive aggressiveness. Parents also keep thinking it's all about the bling and pushing advancement. Another helicopter organized a Radio MB and JOTA weekened without consulting with any other adults in the troop the week before a scheduled camp out., A third helicopter was whining that her son coudn't do the Radio MB and JOTA, and wanted to know how to go about getting a MBC and doing it locally with 2 weeks notice! Then the mom tried to say it wasn't fair that her son couldn't meet xyz requirements for Citizenship in the World since he couldn't do JOTA. Finally, the helicopters complained that they had to a camp fee for a campout and they didn't know anything about it. That has been mentioned for 2 months now, all the Scouts knew about it, and it event guidebook was posted on the troop's facebook page. It's to the point that my is thinking of quitting and going to another troop. So what are some ideas to help my buddy, and if my troop keeps it up then me too, out? I talked to him about coming up with activities for the adults to do to keep them out of the Scouts' hair. I talked about having 2 experienced Scouters herding the new adults. I talked about 300' rule. I mentioned I am thinking about going back to Webelos after my youngest crosses over, and work on truly transitioning the Webelos dens from our pack into the troop. I did not mentioning one-on-one mentoring, but have seen that done. Need to email him that one. Another thing I know my troop growing up did was new volunteers were in a committee member role for 1 year minimum, and longer if they didn't complete the required training for an ASM. Again need to mention it to him. So, what are some of the things you've done or seen do.

As others have said, another unit may be a better fit. Please do not take offense if I quote you and give my thoughts. Retention has been a problem with my troop, and your post has me thinking.

As I said all indications was that this decision was made at least a year ago, if not longer Heck I would say it was made before Wayne Brock retired as CSE. I stated previously I believed Surbaugh was selected to be CSE because of his experience in Exploring and Learning for Life. And after reviewing his wikipage and thinking about it, I bet Surbaugh had a major role in coming up with this. I bet the the research focused on those outside of Scouting and was left as generic as possible to avoid any hint of this coming out. That's why they have so much info on what non-Scouting families want. And I bet a plan was created, and we are seeing the general overview of it. Problem is that national didn't talk to us in the field about it in order to keep it from leaking out. Unfortunately the higher up you go with national, the less you know what the volunteers on the ground are thinking and doing. Heck when I was working for national I saw that with my Scout Shop manager. Manager had no clue about events, pack meetings COHs, sumemr camp, etc, only about selling merchandise, their field of expertise. And the manager interacted with volunteers on a weekly basis because "I'm in the field." Just think about the professionals in their offices at Irving who only come out at jamborees. We all know that the plan as presented will not work. Full integration is the only way.

Aquatics at night is not allowed in the G2SS unless it is a well light area. Actually national came up with a way to get around this at the local council's discretion. It was on Bryan's Blog a few weeks ago. A lot of controversy about this move, and I am against it. As for running, I don't recommend it in a campsite bc/ of the guy lines and tripping/tearing down a tent hazards. Other areas of a camp? Don't see why not. to cwoefully inadequate.re Regarding Scouters saying they don't need the skills, yep me too. One of the SM's I taught said that to me in person. And of course the professional national Health and Safety Team Leader in Irving stated it was the 21st century and pioneering skills are no longer needed. Guess he didn't hear about the Space Shuttle that had an Eagle on the crew use lashings to secure the robotic arm so they didn't have to jettison a multimillion dollar piece of equipment. As for running, in a campsite there is too much of a tripping/tearing down a tent chance. As for the rest of the camp, not to my knowledge. Otherwise Athletics and many first year camper programs would not be in operation or limited

Agreed, staying mad will not do anything. And as much as I would love to send no more money to national, I gotta stay registered. But as you mentioned national totally and completely botched it. And yes they wasted a heck of a lot of money this summer to promote this only to tick off the base in the manner they released the membership change. But here is the deal. You had some Scouters like myself with experience with coed Scouting both here and abroad. While my Sea Scouting experience with girls was negative, the overseas female Scouts was much more positive. Heck the female international Scouts even stated that the female Sea Scouts were "a bunch of wimps." As for Venturing, definitely had to keep an eye open. Know of 2 married couples as a result of Exploring/Venturing. What's interesting is the comment that one longtime Scouter opposed to this said, "They are rewarding those who broke the rules."

I had a conversation with a short lived pro who went to DE training in Dallas last year. From the conversation I had with them and other stuff I am seeing, I believe the volunteers, parents, and Scouts have been lied to. You read that correctly, I BELIEVE NATIONAL LIED TO US IN THE FIELD. They were not surprised in the least by the decision because Surbaugh hinted around at "making changes" when at the meet and greet. Also commented how Surbaugh never used the term "Boys," and "men," but always "youth" and "children." That commented was mentioned previously, and I noticed that since Surbaugh became CSE, he never uses the terms above. Then came the abruptness of the town halls with their slanted questions. Grant you I'm dense at times. But even I got it. and was ticked off. Then add the "family Scouting" and "family camping" campaign. Several of us pointed out the ridiculousness of the "Camping with the Fam" advertising campaign for Supply, the article in Scouting magazine, and a bunch of the girl related merchandise BSA started coming out with, specifically the pink and purple t-shirts. All that takes prep time. Several months or more prep time. I remember an article on my council was not published until 9 months after the event took place. Then you got the July 2017 applications. So yes, I believe I have been lied to. and I am ticked.