Eagle94-A1

I got the specialties and I got the standards. Some are old CSPs from when I was a DE, one is a 100th anniversary CSP, and one is an Eagle CSP. The anniversary and Eagle are duplicates in my collections. I have one CSP that means a lot. Not only is it numbered, it is a gift. I've seen a few folks wear theirs, but not me. But the one that means the most is from my last year on camp staff at the camp I grew up at. A very limited run celebrated an international encampment we had. It's so rare, that last time I checked the CSP books, it was not even listed. But that is not the reason why I saved it when I could wear it. It's because it is a memopry of my old camp.

Don't go there. So much has been lost, it is incredible. Last time I taught ITOLS, I had to go through my collection and make copies to provide the info they need. Today's handbook and field book are shadows of what they were when William 'Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt wrote them.

I agree with partial funding, you want folks to have skin in the game. I've seen first hand folks who get a free ride, and do not take full advantage. Heck one guy got a scholarship from council to attend, only to back out at the last minute. Talk about making folks angry. And if you go with it, make it anonymous. There can be hard feelings for those who do not get it. I received a full scholarship for youth training back in the day, and my friend was ticked off. We worked it out, we each got 1/2. Since he paid for 1/2 the week, when an opportunity to do something else came up, he turned it down because he was vested into taking the training.

I know when my father walked out, my mom was very glad I had postive male role models in the form of my SM and ASMs. Over the years, I lost track of the number of single moms looking for male role models. Most of the Troops I've been in had all male direct contact Scouters, females have been on the committee. I've seen one outstanding unit with a female SM. Troop growing up had a female ASM once I became a Scouter, and she was fine. Grant you, she served on committee for a long number of years before becoming ASM. However I've seen female ASMs, and male ASMs too, that baby the Scouts, treating them as Cubs still.

Forgot to add, there are ways to permanently remove and intimidate opposition. My SE had one long time volunteer permanently removed from the BSA when he opposed the SE and some of his decisions. This act intimidated some of the opposition. It also caused some to feel hopeless, as if nothing could be done to get things back on track. When the new SE showed up, he cleaned house real quick.

My SE did NOT have the trust of those in the field. Best example of that was when he finally left. folks were throwing champagne parties to celebrate. He was able to maintain being SE, and not get removed from his position, because he got "Yes Men" to be in key council positions. Those who opposed him were eventually removed from the council executive board. Funny thing is that when we got a new SE, those who were removed from the board got reinstated over time. One thing I learned being in 5 different councils and under a bunch of pros; every situation is different and every person is different. There wil be those who manipulate the system to get what they want.

The people to be appointed to the nominating committee have to be approved by the SE on the council level, and both the SE, or is designate, and the DE. When I was a DE, my SE would not allow any of the folks suggested on the district nominating committee, and as a result we didn't have one. Everyone on the list for positions were selected by the SE.

A few comments from a former pro. 1) While the council president selectes the nominating committee, the Scout Executive (SE) wields enormous power behind the scenes. I've seen good people who were proposed for council level position, but because they were not 'Yes Men" and the SE said they would be a bad choice. Even when those of us in the field wanted someone in particular. We currently have someone who would like to fill a district Key 3 role, but will not be allowed to serve in that role due to the SE. Like Tahawk, that position has been vacant for 2+ years. 2) While national does not control who is on district committees, the SE and DE do indeed play a large role. I know I was under pressure to get rid of some folks. While some I was able to keep, others were not put on the slate of candidates per the SE. Got around it by having the district chairman appoint them into position. 3) Do not know about the legal side, but do know that what DavidCO said happen in Chicago did indeed happen. many folks here and elsewhere reported about it.

I am no longer doing FOS and it is National's fault: The increase in registration is affecting me financially. $34 (we pay $1 extra for insurance), per person per year for 4 is $136 due at one time since both units charter at the same time. It would be $170 if my wife officially registered since becoming a WDL 3 years ago. However, since none of the applications had been processed over a 2 year period, despite paying the fee, she has said it aint worth the frustration. I will play Devil's Advocate for the council though: One reason why some councils may not have had town halls on the matter was due to how National told them they needed to go about it and when the deadline was. My SE was furious with how National not only wanted it done, with all three Key Three members reading a set script, but also with the time frame National gave them. National informed the councils they wanted these town hall done the day before many council jamboree contingents were set to leave. If you consider how many Key 3s staff the Jambo, many were already at the jambo site prepping when the orders were issued.Then all responses had to be submitted within 17 days after Jambo was finished (16 days for staff). I know my council had a hard time setting up the first one. I do not know if those who attended the second town hall that was extremeley last minute, 3 days notice for the meeting) had a chance to receive the surveys and complete them before the deadline. What I found interesting is that the video that needed to be watched, and the scripts that needed to be read, were posted on a national website in June, a full month before councils were notified about them it's almost as if National wanted limited responses to the surveys. Plus the surveys were very slanted towards accepting girls into the BSA. I remember answering almost every question with "NO, girls have GSUSA, and if they want a program more like the BSA, then they need to work on fixing their program" or words to that affect.

I've seen pushy parents that cause their sons to lose interest and/or rebel. My uncle pushed my cousin to get Eagle at 13. As soon as he became an Eagle, he quit. Still had 5 more years of adventures left. Another Scout I know has been dragging his feet because he is not interested, but his dad wants another Eagle in the family. The troop changed from a hiking and camping troop, to a high speed, low drag advancement oriented troop because Dad is the SM and wants his son to be Eagle. Troop went from 3 active patrols (approximately 24 Scouts), to one patrol of 4 active Scouts. And 3 of them are new Scouts Everyone else has either quit, transferred, or Eagled and still registered, but not active, so they can get their palms. Some of the Eagles have not been on a camp out in years. One interesting Life Scout I knew had 63 MBs because he was pushed by parents/ He rebelled b/c he got ticked off at them pushing. Missed Eagle by a service project. Regarding change within a unit. You need adults who share the vision and are willing to back up and enforce the vision. One reason we got change going was the adults meeting and getting one vision. While it was not a 100% Scout-led vision, it was enough change to get it on the right path, and we had enough adults at the time agreeing to it. Now there is no enforcement, and the helicopter parents are taking over the troop now as they are ticking off the established Scouters to the point they are slowly backing away. I do not know who attended the leaders' meeting last weekend, but I do know all of the helicopters were there. Long story short, they started a mega fundraiser for the pack and are still in charge of it. Now that their sons are in the troop, the troop is involved with the fundraiser. I know two pro- Scout-led adults were not there because we were suppose to go backpacking today, and 1 was in the hospital. So I do not think enough of the experienced adults to fight for the Scouts, and we will now have a Webelos 3 den with the troop that the adults will teach.

My responses in red

While it's more personal, it is Scout related. We have a small group of 4 Scouts and 2 adults going backpacking. My middle son, the one who has been in the troop less than a year, wants to do the AT this summer, and this will be his second shakedown trip. When I came home from work, he was 95% packed. I did a shake down while he finished getting the gear. He's ready to go and he did it on their own. To make it more interesting, oldest just informed me that as an incentive for middle son to prep for the AT, everytime he does a certain distance with a full pack, the oldest will allow him 30 minutes on his gaming computer for one specific game. Now only if he would let ME play the game

May I quote the late William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the man who saved the BSA in 1979 for rule #3. Regarding Scouts, adults should "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" The successful troops I've been in all these years have followed that mantra. I'm use to sitting in my chair drinking coffee. Only the current troop I am with and one other had these type of adult issues.

I'm not a fan of by-laws because they are extremely legalistic, and someone can argue that according to XYZ rule they met the requirements, do whatever event, etc. In fact it's already happened. We have two Scouts who "earned" their Tenderfoot. But there was a lot of "discussion" about the requirements by their parents, and the SM signed off despite his, and other Scouters', reservations because of the legelese in advancment policy. Personally I do NOT like adults signing off on the S-T-2-1 requirements Since it's A) taking responsibility away from the PLs, Instructors, SPL, etc and B) The Scouts are better judges of other Scouts' abilities than the adults. Unfortunately one ASM, who lookes like he will become SM in the future, had a bad expereince as a Scout. Apparently he was denied Tenderfoot twice by the then allowed youthled BOR. Only when the adults intervened for the thrid BOR did he finally get Tenderfoot. My point in mentioning the Scout in question to the SM and ASM briefing me and the other adult who did not know about the meeting was to point out how making such a rule is nonsense. Sadly they did not see it that way. As for apologizing to the Scout, I do not know what for. He was not involved in the conversation, other than his name being mentioned by the SM or ASM as needing help camping. All I did was mention that the rule would still not apply since he is already Tenderfoot.

I do not think any of the youth know a thing about this yet. And I agree, it's not youth led. Scouts are not being given responsibility. What ticks me off is that we had this discussion a little over a year ago, some things were done to make it more youth led, AND IT WAS WORKING! Was it perfect? NO. Was it chaotic? YES. Did the Scouts make mistakes? ABSOLUTELY! And did they learn from those mistakes? YES INDEED! Did they have room to improve? OF COURSE THEY DID! But apparently the change is not fast enough for some folks, especially the new parents because I have heard them complain about how things are different from Cub Scouts. One mentor of mine said it takes 3 years to get a troop started. One year to get started, make mistakes, and see what is needed etc. Another year to fine tune it. And a third year establish customs, traditions, and procedures to pass along.

Well here's another update. There was leaders' meeting at the camp out this past weekend. It was suppose to have been a weekday, but that didn't come through. All but 2 adults were at this impromptu meeting, me and one other. I admit I am a bit miffed because this is the second time they had a meeting on a camp out that I was unable to attend. And the SM and ASM who briefed us last nite both knew I wanted to talk about the troop situation at this meeting. But there is nothing I can do. I do not know what happened this weekend on the camp out, but something did regarding the new Scouts. Long story short, we will be taking those Scouts under a certain rank out of their current patrols, creating a NSP and having the adults, you read that right ADULTS, teach these guys how to set up tents, cook, the T-2-1 skills, etc. Yep they will be camping near the adults, cooking with adults, etc on camp outs. And the new Scouts we are getting in December will be joining them. Once they hit a certain rank, they get integrated into the rest of the troop.Originally it was mentioned once they get Tenderfoot, they get integrated. When one Scout's name was mentioned as needing the help, I reminded the adults he's already Tenderfoot, and it would not affect him. That's when they said Second Class. Since my middle son may be affected, he's Tenderfoot, I encouraged him tonite to finish ASAP his Second Class. He has some motivation, he wants to do the Appalachian Trail this summer, and needs to be First Class to go. Hopefully the backpacking trip this weekend will put his butt in gear. I know he wass tired of Cub Scouts, and has commented on how the newer Scouts act. It looks like the NSP will become; Webelos 3. I did not tell him what the adults want to do. Then again they may not do it to him since he was appointed APL of his patrol. Plus the adults thought he was already Second Class. I'm backing away. I'll maintain my registration, and go camping when needed. And help those Scouts with MBs who come to me. But that's pretty much it.

I've seen first hand what happens when Scouts who had Cub leaders "Forget about the requirement and pass him anyway." or got rather "creative" or "sea lawyery" in meeting AOL requirements so the Cub could move to Boy Scouts, and and it is not pretty. Out of the den we got just like that, we lost 3 outright,have one we have not seen since summer camp, have 1 who will not camp, and 2 who won't camp unless a parent is with them, and will sneak into parents tent at night. It's gotten to the point that the adults in the troop are reconsidering doing an NSP for the group, and having adults teach them how to do things before reintergration with the rest of the troop. Sad thing is that my youngest and his freinds will be affected since they have not met the proposed rank requirements for reintergration. Middle son is already complaining the campouts of late are boring, and skipped this past weekend where all this came about in order to go backpacking this weekend. Do the right thing talk to the parents, and let them and the Scout decide.

Even having another adult is not always safe. I was with 2 other adults and 3 other Scouts in the situation I had with the "Scout" above. Long story short until the 3 other youth told the contingent leaders the truth, that they snuck out after curfew and when we caught them and tried to take them back and they ran off, we were being blamed for allowing youth to be out on the college campus after the conference's lights out. Yep, only when the other youth told the truth were the 3 adults believed.

Sadly, YP and 2 deep do not cover everything. Nor is everyone in Scouting a true 'Scout.' We had a situation where one of our female Scouters was in the shower house during the scheduled time, which was after youth lights out. One youth was caught being a peeping Tom by her and she reported him. The Scout accused her of making a pass at him when confronted with being out after hours and being around the shower house. Because it was a case of "he said, she said," she had her membership as a volunteer permanently revoked by national and placed in the ineligible volunteer files. He got a slap on the wrist for being out after hours I have personal experience with this "Scout," and his attempt to lie himself out of a situation. I can vouch for that. Where there is a will there is a way.

Worst case scenario, one Life Scout back in the day was denied Eagle because when the council checked their records after his EBOR, they had him listed as a First Class Scout still. Thankfully between his handbook and the Advancement Reports that were indeed turned in, he was approved.

Sorry for the confusion. let me try and clarify. Not only do we have folks thinking 11-17 yo Scouting will become "Family camping" with siblings being able to tag along, but also that if there are no female Scouters attending, as long as dad of the female Scout attends, there is no YP violation since it is 'family camping." When I tried to explain the Venturing YP policies, i.e. female adult must attend, I'm told "no because as long as the dad attends, it's family camping."

Yes it is allowed for Cub Scouts. But I'm talking at the 11-17 yo Scout level. Already have folks mention how if they cannot get females to camp with the girls, or camp in general since some troops have stated they will go coed anyway, that as long as dad is camping, daughter can camp too. Which as some know from Venturing / Exploring experience, that is not the case.

Additionally, some of the same folks thinks that since Cub Scout family camping has no requirements on the genders of the adults attending, i.e. all dads could camp with their sons and daughters or all moms camp with with their sons and daughters, that if no ladies can attend a camp out, as long as the female Scout's dad is in attendance, it will be allowed. All because BSA is using "Family Scouting."

Actually have folk in my district who believe that the 11-17 year old program will have a new role for parents and younger siblings because the BSA keeps using "Family." They think it will be a continuation of Cub Scouts.

Not only is training needed, but mentoring as well. and even more important, A WILLINGNESS TO LEARN! We have one parent who is a wilderness survival freak. Been to multiple survival schools and programs, certified to teach some of the levels with one program, etc. But zero experience as a Boy Scout or Boy Scout leader. Still in Cub Scout leader mode: complaining the boys aren't doing some things, jumping in and doing things for the boys, etc. Trying to talk top him is a chore as he won't listen.