Eagle94-A1

The lodge I grew up in has had mixed relations with the local tribe, despite having members in the lodge. At one time, we had excellent relations, then a group of yahoos got involved int he lodge. I do not know the full story, but the local tribe asked us to disband the dance team, which we did. While the yahoos did their own thing still, eventually AIA died. Then we got some youth who were really interested in AIA. They reestablished the relationship, helps when one of your fellow Arrowman is kin to the principle chief , and we got it back up and running with their blessing. And we have helped each other out when I was down there. Current lodge has an extremely amiable relationship with local tribes. I discovered that one of the local drums was formed by members of the lodge at the primary Scout camp years ago. Several of our AIA folks are on that drum, and one or two others. One of our Arrowman was head male dancer at one of the local powwows.

I think you are missing my point: the double standard. While you can have two females working with an all male den, you MUST have a female working with an all girl den. In my experience as a DL, it was the fathers who stayed around and helped out. Occasionally mothers were there and helped. But for the most part the mothers would always gravitate to committee roles. While I know first hand that 2 adults, and in some cases even more, are needed to work with dens, under BSA's new rules, YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE FEMALE TO WORK WITH THE GIRLS BUT YOU DO NOT NEED ONE MALE TO WORK WITH THE BOYS! ( caps for emphasis) So you cannot have a bunch of dads working with their daughters. But a bunch of moms can work with their sons. BSA needs to either keep the current policy, or change it to a fairer one.

Correct. Or keep it as it is currently which is X=Male Y=Female CS= Cub Scout of either gender Den Leaders Single Gender Den XX or YY or XY CS, CS, CS, CS

" REALLY?"

Well if we don't want men alone with girls, why allow women to be alone with boys? As I see it, the girls are not in the program yet, but their is already a double standard in how we treat them.

Notice that a FEMALE leader is required for the girls, but a male leader is not required for the boys. Irony for me is that the one person I know a female Scouter who had their membership revoked.

One of the challenges is that a lot of folks do not know how the OA actually helped the 500+ different Native American cultures in North America. I know Arrowman, who have done research for local, state recognized to help get them federal recognition. I know an Arrowmen who have done research to help reintroduce lost arts. And I can go on and on.

Regarding two deep leadership, anyone notice the double standard? An all boys den only needs 'One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old" whereas an all girl den requires "One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old, and a Youth Protection trained adult female must be present." (bold for emphasis, underline in original) See the screen capture from the video.

Sorry, getting confused with my old age. Correct WC earned up until August 1, 1989 ( when I was in the middle of earning it in Canada ) I read somewhere, Mike Walton perhaps, that the flag was worn when doing international activities. Don't quote me on that.

Call me cynical, but I would not be surprised if they allow her to do it. Just finished watching the webinar, and they want any girls joining January 15th to cram 7 months of work in 4 months.

Cub Scouts in the 1980s had it over the right pocket. I want to say in 1989, when the flag came with the uniform, was when it went on the right sleeve for Cubs. Boy Scouts had to earn it at one point I am told. Then it was placed onthe sleeve.

SO.VERY.TRUE. That is the challenge, getting both sides to sit down and talk out the issues. If one or both sides will not sit down and talk, it will only get worse. When my troop was having major adult issues last year, it wasn't until we all sat down by ourselves and talked it over. Neither side got everything they wanted, but compromise was made. IMHO, I think I made a few converts to for the Patrol Method. Now if I could just make them realize they need to give responsibility and authority to the Scouts, and have them sitting down, playing card games, and drinkin coffee. But we got a goal, and worked in it. Conflct between the two groups ceased. Sadly we have some of the new parents who either have not attended any of the adult meetings, or refuse to follow the policies implemented by the troop to insure the Scouts get the most out of their experience. We have meeting for every adult involved in the troop this weekend since we have a day activity scheduled for the Scouts. Word has gotten out that it is important that everyone attend. Unfortunately it seems as if the most challenging new parents, the ones causing so many problems that 4 Scouters are saying the heck with it, (and all 4 have kids in the troop and have less than 6 years with the troop, Don't know if you would call them "Old Guard" or "Expereinced"), look as if they will not attend due to "other commitments." Yet this is the date everyone agreed upon, except me and one other person. And we will both be there.

Apparently, National is allowing councils the option to "soft launch" allowing girls in grades 1-4, NO 5TH GRADERS ALLOWED, as early as January 1st to test out implementing girls. IMHO this should have been thought out before they even announced allowing girls into the program. 5th grade girls won't be allowed until the 10-18 year old Girl program is unveiled. I'm getting this from a FB post of a letter sent to council and area key 3s. There is a webinar tonite in Livestream about the soft implementation. And from reading that letter, it looks like June 1 will be when girls are allowed officially.

Since we got a negative sterotype of old school Scouters, let me offer this negative stereotype of new volunteers. You have these just crossed over parents who had little to no interaction with the troop their sons have joined who try and take over. Since they never visited the troop, let alone camped with them, while their sons were Webelos, they do not understand the "unorganized chaos" of the Patrol Method. They complain that the leaders are not doing an effective job and want the Scouters to jump in and do stuff that the Scouts are fully capable of doing. Just not up to an adult standard yet. They complain that meetings are not advancement oriented and their sons are not earning anything. They complain when other Scouts who joined at the same time as their son is advancing ahead of their son. They are constantly following their child around on camp outs, jumping in and helping their child until either A) they finally listen to the SM and ASMs or B) they throw a temper tantrum and threaten to leave (if I'd known that that one was not going to fully complete a commitment he made, I would have said "Go.") When work on a MB isn't fully done by a campout, they expect the Scouters to change the PLC's plans so that their sons can earn a MB. They are constantly trying to get their sons signed off on advancement, even when not fully earned. And they try to play two different ASMs against the SM trying to find a MBC for their new Scout ( SM was trying to find a MBC since the one the troop used was dying. Mom would not take "let me work on it as an answer"). And when they are not getting their way, they go around the SM, find MBCs from other councils they know, and organize their own trips, which can cause conflicts with existing plans the PLC has made. In essence it is all about their son getting Eagle as soon as possible. They do not understand the goals and methods of Scouting. They see Eagle as the only thing.

Why national wants to standardize all the training courses.

FYI, they will ALWAYS be your Scouts. When they graduate from boot camp, college, etc they will be YOUR Scouts. When they celebrate marriages and births, they will be YOUR Scouts. When they are in their 30s and have sons, and soon daughters, in the program, They will be your Scouts. Once yours, always yours.

NYLT is a week long course similar to WB. except there is no ticket. Rock Doc's program sound more like the old training from the 1980s, or maybe older, that I took to be "trained" as a PL. My course was TLT, but on a camp out.

Well Said!

Good for you for going to the SM to propose a fundraiser for the PLC to approve. Maybe they were not interested. One challenge we had was new parents "persuading" the PLC to do a joint fundraiser with the pack. PLC had to cancel their trip in order to do it. While the Cubs sold the bulk of the tickets, I discovered the troop 95% of the manpower. And that 5% was either parents in both the troop and pack, or about to cross over parents. And you are not mandating what the monies are going to. We got some extra money from the fundraiser due to providing manpower. However, the folks in charge said the troop can have the money only if we put it towards equipment, and nothing else. Fair enough. I just hope they don't want us to buy what they want to get. Looking at some of the stuff they proposed in the past, it was not practical, nor cost efficient. Plus the Scouts won't have ownership, and will not take care of it.

One of the things I remember not only being taught when I did BA 22, but also taught when staffing JLT was "Counseling." I remember when I had issues, I went to the ASPL or SPL. They were my mentors, not the adults. Even when I was ASPL and acting SPL, it was my peers I went to, not the adults. @Col. Flagg brings up a very good point regarding adult intervention. Heck it is even discouraged that Scouts deal with discipline problems in their units anymore.

I got both noble and selfish reasons. Noble: I want to pay back the adults who were involved in Scouting when I was a youth. I want my sons and their friends to have as good, if nor better, experience in Scouting than I had. I want to be a positive influence in my community. Selfish: SCOUTING IS FUN! "SCOUTING IS OUTING" I get a "rush" talking to my Scouts and hearing about their lives journeys and seeing their successes. This topic came up at a funeral this weekend. Oldest son's first SM, "went home." He left instructions as to what he wanted done. Scouting was such a factor in his life, he was buried in his uniform. Our Honor Guard detail provided a color guard for his service. 98% of the troop showed up and in full uniform (we haven't gotten this ever, including COHs!) It was standing room only as many folks who were Scouts under him, or served with him as a Scouter came from out of town to pay their last respects. The "eulogies" were all reminiscing about Scouting events in the past. When the service was over, and folks went to pay their respects to the family, Scouting was the topic of conversation, and it lasted so long that many had to leave and could not attend the graveside service. Long story short, this one guy made that much of an impact on many peoples lives. I hope the same can be said when my time comes.

Yes, I've encountered situations where Explorers/Venturers here in the States have hooked up on outings. One case involved two summer camp staffers, one of whom was the director of support services's daughter. In another, the young lady ran away from home because she disagreed with parents. As she was 18, nothing the parents could do, but the council pros involved were in a very uncomfortable situation. Thankfully everything worked out with her family, and the couple are married.

Correct. That is why I like folks to step away from Boy Scouts directly from Cub Scouts, observe what is being done, getting trained, and being mentored. Even I stepped away as an ASM when oldest joined, not only because I was a DL, but also observe troop dynamics and learn how things are doen in the troop. And this is from someone with years of experience, and has served as an ASM previously, and was a training chairman. I had to step back at times and remember it is not Cub Scouts that first year.

If your sons are Boy Scouts, they know about girls being able to join already. The word has been out since before Jamboree. Scouts in my troop know it is coming. That's nice you know parents, especially a mom, who will be involved. But will it be enough? For the trip that got cancelled, we have 9 active Scouters, plus the helicopter parents, yet only 3 adults were willing to go because it was backpacking. More importantly will the moms be comfortable doing the trips? One helicopter mom, who refuses to let her son camp without her, would not do the survival camp out, nor the survival camporee, nor the backpacking trip. Guess which Scout didn't attend these camp outs. And you never addressed the experienced factor. We have an avid outdoorsman and survivalist as a Scouter in the troop. I admit he knows more survival skills and techniques than me, or anyone else in the troop save the ASM who went through SERE. Great resource right? WRONG, AS THE EXPERIENCED SCOUTS HATE HIM! (caps for emphasis). He is constantly interfering, treating them like Cub Scouts. It got to the point that he started doing cooking and KP on two camp outs, and the older Scouts walked away as they were fed up with him. Since he is a nationally certified wilderness survival instructor with one of the survival schools, you would think he would teach great survival classes? SPL asked him to do just that. First session he did on shelters was boring as all get out, no hands on teaching, and was essentially doing the tarp shelter from Webelos. SPL got the SERE survivor to finish up the rest of the sessions instead because there was protest with the way he was doing things. The problem was that all his experience in Scouting has been Cub Scout based. He was never a Boy Scout, and while "trained," having completed online SM Specific and ITOLs at summer camp, he has not truly made the transition to Boy Scouter mode. He does not know how to interact with the Scouts. He does not know how to work with the Scouts, He does not know how to relate to the Scouts. And instead of being a blessing to the troop like all of us thought, he has turned into a big detriment. He is one of the helicopter parents we are having issues with. He is the one who lets his son sneak into his tent or shelter when Scout son is afraid. He is the one sitting outside the tent until his son falls asleep. He is the one who is taking over cooking and cleaning when son is suppose to do it. And according to National, he is a fully "trained" ASM entitled to wear the "Trained Strip." Outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities do not equate to being a good Boy Scouter. A lot more than knowing how to tie lashings, camp, etc is needed. You need to know how to work with YOUNG MEN ages 10 - 18. You need to be able to relate, mentor, and advise. And that does not come from training. And just being male, or growing up in the program make you an expert, it takes time and mentoring. For all my experience as a youth, I was a lousy ASM fro the first year. I kept going into SPL mode, and not Scouter mode. It took time and mentoring. That is one of the problems we are having. Unfortunately because we have been desperate for adults in the past, we didn't have the cooling off period. It is now biting us in the butt. Troop growing up made folks wait a year, sometimes longer, to become an ASM. The SM, and COR/CC vetted folks before making them an ASM. I think they may have had problems before I was in the troop. It's not that I am against adults around. I don't want adults INTERFERING (emphasis) with the Patrol Method. Growing up, the only time I had interactions with an adult was for a health and safety issue (MD gave me free summer camp physical and examined for a concussion on one camp out. Even when I got hypothermia in Canada, it was a Scout who treated me, not an adult), when I was acting as SPL, and my first time I was PL, when I modeled a leadership style from my original troop that the SM did not approve of ( Yelling and screaming at my Scouts). Even then, my SPL was the first invovled, and counseled me. THEN the SM came over and chatted with me. Otherwise all the adults did was sit around the campfire, drinking coffee, and doing their own thing.

Growing up in the 1980s, I too read BL cover to cover. I especially loved the comic serial, specifically the WHITE MOUNTAINS TRILOGY. I remember drooling over the gear they advertised, and when I found a Coleman Peak1 Ramflex backpack for $2.50 at a thrift store, I jumped at it, but gave it to the wife so that she would no longer use my internal frame pack. I was so in love with BL, I remember a neighbor who was in Boy Scouts was moving and the family had a garage sale. He was selling all of his BL magazines. I bought them all up. Sadly my BL collection from my youth was destroyed in a hurricane. But my wife and sis-in-law got a hold of the microfiche files of BL magazine from 1985-1990, and gave that to me as a Christmas present. Happy Scouter. But then I had the chance to look at older BL and Scouting magazines when a friend passed away, and I inherited some of his collection. WOW they were a lot better in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s.