Eagle94-A1

Yes it is allowed for Cub Scouts. But I'm talking at the 11-17 yo Scout level. Already have folks mention how if they cannot get females to camp with the girls, or camp in general since some troops have stated they will go coed anyway, that as long as dad is camping, daughter can camp too. Which as some know from Venturing / Exploring experience, that is not the case.

Additionally, some of the same folks thinks that since Cub Scout family camping has no requirements on the genders of the adults attending, i.e. all dads could camp with their sons and daughters or all moms camp with with their sons and daughters, that if no ladies can attend a camp out, as long as the female Scout's dad is in attendance, it will be allowed. All because BSA is using "Family Scouting."

Actually have folk in my district who believe that the 11-17 year old program will have a new role for parents and younger siblings because the BSA keeps using "Family." They think it will be a continuation of Cub Scouts.

Not only is training needed, but mentoring as well. and even more important, A WILLINGNESS TO LEARN! We have one parent who is a wilderness survival freak. Been to multiple survival schools and programs, certified to teach some of the levels with one program, etc. But zero experience as a Boy Scout or Boy Scout leader. Still in Cub Scout leader mode: complaining the boys aren't doing some things, jumping in and doing things for the boys, etc. Trying to talk top him is a chore as he won't listen.

I've done USS ALABAMA, USS YORKTOWN as well as the USS KIDD as a Scout, Scouter, and employee (yeah I did nite time tours back in the day ) The KIDD may be smaller, but the restoration to WWII status is 99.5% accurate (Yes I know what the Korean War item that was added to the KIDD is that cannot be removed is )They have the best overnight program. Although I admit to some bias. A lot of blood, sweat, tears and money have gone into restoring the KIDD.

well if you are adding food joints to. then MOTHERS restaurant for an Everything Po'Boy. Regarding WWII Museum, I went there twice when it was still the D-Day Museum, and still have not seen everything. MUST GO BACK FOR A FEW DAYS Me personally, I'd rather go next door to the University of New Orleans' Eisenhower Center and go through their archives.

While many pros are Eagles, there is a substantial number who have little to no experience, especially at the national level. When I was a DE, while many had Scouting experience, the ones that stayed around usually didn't. At my national owned scout shop, neither of my managers had any Scouting experience as a youth or adult, save being an employee. Until I started recruiting friends to work with me, no one had any youth experience, and 1 coworker had experience as a den leader only. And that moves up the organization. Other examples would be the marketing folks BSA have used in the past. Anyone remember the dog wearing the anniversary "bandanna" or the Arrow of Light belt buckle? Also when you become a professional, scouting is no longer a "movement for youth" but a business. You begin to lose focus on what is truly important, bringing the best possible program to youth, and begin focusing on goals that result in pay raises and promotions. Scouts become membership numbers, advancement becomes a metric to show how well the program is doing, and volunteers are to be used until they either become a nuisance, or burn out. As a DE you either adapt, or leave. And even if you stick to you idealism, and get promoted, the idealism will eventually hurt you. One extremely good pro managed to keep his idealism and be successful. Then he found out about some shenanigans, reported it, and was rewarded with a "promotion" that essentially ended his career. He went from a DFS with 2 field directors and finance director under him,with approximately 14-16 folks under the directors, to a SE with 1 FD and 3 DEs.

Bit of a drive, approx 1.25 hours away, but Salman Scout Reservation is in Perkinstion, MS and is the council camp. City Park had a campsite called Scout Island, but do not know if they still allow camping. I haven't camped there since 1985. I believe the National WWII Museum has an overnite program. I'd call and find out. Another option, see what affilaited COs with yours are down there and work out something where you stay there and/or do something with the other troop. Other things to do in New Orleans are the Museum of Art, Audubon Zoo, and The Aquarium. There was the Old Spanish Fort Trail if your troop is into hiking and learning history. That one starts in the Mid City area and ends at the Old Spanish Fort on Lake Pontchartrain. Another trail is the Carrolton Trail that takes you along the oldest streetcar line in the US down St. Charles Avenue. Nice thing about that one is that you can park in one location, hike to the end of the trail, and take the street car back. About 1.25 - 1.5 hours away is Baton Rouge. There is the USS KIDD, a Fletcher Class WWII destroyer that has been restored. They also have an overniter program, has excellent tours ( night tours are better than day tours since you have all night to explore the ship AND they take you into areas normally off limits due to time), and will work with you if you stay multiple nights. There are other museums there as well, but I'm partial to the KIDD since I worked there in grad school. Good luck Other things to do i

Actually William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt was a Scout in Denmark, earning teh Knight Scout rank, their Eagle Scout, and went to the first 2 WSJs as part of the Danish contingent.

IMHO we got too many ASMs in my sons' troop. And some have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to not only survive in the outdoors, but also work with the Scouts. And some do not. One thing I am seeing having so many adults: adults thinking camp outs are covered so we are not having enough adults with the KSAs attending. We are ending up with one or two experienced adults and a bunch of new parents with nothing but Cub Scout experience.

Trust me, being a Boy Scout is nothing compared to being a male nurse. Only thing harder is being a male certified nurse midwife. Yeah, we have one of those at my hospital.

Growing up, as a PL my mentors were the two SPLs I served under, and the older Scouts in the Leadership Corps. When I was ASPL, it was the SPL, and sometimes when they were home from college or military leave the former Scouts I worked under. I can count on one hand the number of times I was mentored by an adult. It was when I was acting in the SPL role, and it was the SM doing the mentoring. The more adults involved in a troop, the more problems will arise.The committee doesn't need to be involved in supervising the leaders. They need to support them by getting the resources they need to have their program.

No, not my intention at all. And I want to apologize. In rereading my post, it comes across as very negative. Part of that is the ADD. One problem we suffer from is our minds are going a mile-a-minute, and we can switch from one topic to another, and it makes sense to us. But when expressed,it makes no sense. Part of it is my own frustration with this situation, as you will see. So How did I go from "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." to "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." to "...why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering." ? And it relates to the topic at hand. Back in the day, Webelos, heck Cub Scouts in general, were limited in their outdoor experiences. "Dad and Lad" was the only time Cubs could camp, Webelos could camp with a troop 1 time. My WDL, started the transition by giving us more repsonibilties, visiting a troop, and then modeling the patrol method. When we finally camped, we were integrated into patrols that we later joined. FYI, New Scout Patrols didn't exist until 1989, and some troop still do not use them because they found traditional, mixed-aged patrols better.Anyway that is the "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." This is where the "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." comes in. After Webelos were allowed to do more outdoor activities,and not limited to"dad and lad" type stuff. My troop had a camp out planned that almost turned into a fiasco. Night before the camp out, we discovered tents, tarps, lanterns, and other gear destroyed. Long story short, another group at the CO used out brand new fiberglass shed as a dartboard. Instead of canceling, we decided to turn the weekend into a quasi-wilderness survival camp. It was a huge success and morphed over time due to ideas from the PLC. To help aid in the transition, we provided den chiefs to the feeder pack we eventually got. This also covers part of the boy-led because the adults wanted to cancel initially. Now to the "I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering. " Again this is more commentary on my sons' troop more than anything.If you search some of my previous posts from a year or longer ago, you would see that the troop has had some issues with adults taking over from the Scouts. A little over a year ago, things started to get better. that was due to a change in SMs and a meeting of adults to get us on one page. The improvements were going well until this last batch of parents came in. Orientation meeting was in one ear and out the other. Trying to chat, mentor, etc with multiple people doing the talking has not worked.Several of the adults who have tried to talk to them have either backed away, helping only when absolutely needed, or quit outright. The one who quit outright is a real loss because A, he did high adventure andB, he helped some of the adults sitting on the fence last year about the Patrol Method and Youth led see what can happen when you " Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" The new parents keep interfering and not letting Scouts do what they need to do. Best example is the adults attempting to fix a problem that really did not need fixing.Instead of listening to the Scouts, the adults ended up destroying a tarp. Another example with this bunch of new parents would be when the new Scouts were still Webelos. One of the Boy Scouts, working with the SM, two CMs, and two WDLS was suppose to have worked with to different dens from different packs on Castaway. Instruction was going to be done at their meeting location. Long story short, the adults ignored the meeting plans, the other den, and the Boy Scout to do their own thing. The WDL was embarrased, and the visiting WDL invited the Boy Scout to their place to finish up, which he did. Then the meeting before the camp out, the adults getytheSPL upset because they finally realized that they never had any instruction and were not prepared . Again the adults interfered, and it caused problems for their sons. The other den had a blast. A third example that thankfully the SPL handled in a firm, but polite manner was these same new parents trying to change 2 months of meetings so that their sons could possibly get a MB. SPL stated plans were made, the Scouts need to prepare for the next two campouts, and hey will have time to earn the MB some other time. So that is how I got from Point A to B to C. I'm sure you are now understanding this since many ADHD suffers are the same way. No, not my intention at all. And I want to apologize. In rereading my post, it comes across as very negative. Part of that is the ADD. One problem we suffer from is our minds are going a mile-a-minute, and we can switch from one topic to another, and it makes sense to us. But when expressed,it makes no sense. So How did I go from "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." to "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." to "...why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering." ? And it relates to the topic at hand. Back in the day, Webelos, heck Cub Scouts in general, were limited in their outdoor experiences. "Dad and Lad" was the only time Cubs could camp, Webelos could camp with a troop 1 time. My WDL, started the transition by giving us more repsonibilties, visiting a troop, and then modeling the patrol method. When we finally camped, we were integrated into patrols that we later joined. FYI, New Scout Patrols didn't exist until 1989, and some troop still do not use them because they found traditional, mixed-aged patrols better.Anyway that is the "That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time." This is where the "Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas,...." comes in. After Webelos were allowed to do more outdoor activities,and not limited to"dad and lad" type stuff. My troop had a camp out planned that almost turned into a fiasco. Night before the camp out, we discovered tents, tarps, lanterns, and other gear destroyed. Long story short, another group at the CO used out brand new fiberglass shed as a dartboard. Instead of canceling, we decided to turn the weekend into a quasi-wilderness survival camp. It was a huge success and morphed over time due to ideas from the PLC. To help aid in the transition, we provided den chiefs to the feeder pack we eventually got. This also covers part of the boy-led because the adults wanted to cancel initially. Now to the "I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering. " This is more commentary on my sons' troop more than anything.If you search some of my previous posts from a year or longer ago, you would see that the troop has had some issues with adults taking over from the Scouts. A little over a year ago, things started to get better. that was due to a change in SMs and a meeting of adults to get us on one page. The improvements were going well until this last batch of parents came in. Orientation meeting was in one ear and out the other. Trying to chat, mentor, etc with multiple people doing the talking has not worked. They keep interfering and not letting Scouts do what they need to do. Best example is the adults attempting to fix a problem that really did not need fixing.Instead of listening to the Scouts, the adults ended up destroying a tarp. Another example with this bunch would be when the Scouts were still Webelos. One of the Boy Scouts, working with the SM, two CMs, and two WDLS was suppose to have worked with to different dens from different packs on Castaway. Instruction was going to be done at their meeting location. Long story short, the adults ignored the meeting plans, the other den, and the Boy Scout to do their own thing. The WDL was embarrased, and the visiting WDL invited the Boy Scout to their place to finish up, which he did. Then the meeting before the camp out, the adults getytheSPL upset because they finally realized that they never had any instruction and were not prepared . Again the adults interfered, and it caused problems. A third example that thankfully the SPL handled in a firm, but polite manner was these same new parents trying to change 2 months of meetings so that their sons could possibly get a MB. So that is how we got from Point A to B to C. I'm sure you are now understanding this since many ADHD suffers are the same way.

Sadly, my PLC only meets twice a year, and one of those is the annual planning conference. Current SPL tried to have them 1 per month, but encountered some challenges They did meet twice in his 6 months. Part of the issue is the Scouts. They are use to a smaller 1- 2 patrol troop. Plus they are use to adults intervening. part of it is the adults. The ones that want to attend don't have the time.

That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time. When Webelos got to do more, my troop started doing the above. Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas, but for a troop without a feeder pack for a long time, it was extremely successful. I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering.

Question for ya @WisconsinMomma, what was the Webelos program like for your 13 year old? Did the DL treat it like a continuation of Cub Scouts, or started treating it more like a Boy Scout patrol? I ask because it seems from my experience that how the DL treats the Webelos is what makes the difference. Dens that begin transitioning Webelos I see have better rates of Scouts staying in the program, adapting to Scouts better etc. I know the dens my older 2 were in did just that, and there are no problems with them. Ditto with new Scouts who were in one of my Eagle's den. Cub Scouts in a good Webelos program should not have a big transition to make their first year. I too have... SQIRRELL Seriously, I too have ADHD. Those checklists were, and continue to be a Godsend.

Regarding learning, as my grandfather onme told me, 'the day you stop learning is the day you die." i would not consider a 13 year old a new guy. most of the PLs growing up were 13-14. I was ASPL at 13. And really, Anyone First Class or higher, regardless of age, should be able to handle themsleves, and teach others. dad should not have to double check. Going off on aside, I honestly beleive the problem stems somewhat from society.Let's face it, some people consider 25 year old children. At work, I have parents contacting me not only for their high school aged children, but also college age young adults, and in one case college graduate. Parents to not let their kids take responsibility for themselves. One of teh reasons I think Boy scouts is needed now more than ever. Sadly national will approve the Eagle anyway. We had an incident 19 years ago just like it. The bulk of the MBs were earned using Mom, dad, and grandpa as MBCs. Long story short, family was pushing paper for him to earn Eagle, and when discovered at the Eagle BOR, the family petitioned an appeal, and the appeal went to national. national agreed there were irregularities, but " we cannot penalize the Scout for the mistakes of teh adults involved." or words to that effect. That district advancement committee resigned in protest.

This is the Tale of the Two Eagles. Once there were two Eagles. The First Eagle was the son of a "Double Eagle," or an Eagle Scout and Explorer Silver recipient. "Double Eagle" dad pushed and pushed and pushed his son to earn Eagle at the ripe old age of 13. Since the Silver Award was no longer around for Exploring, dad did no pushing for that. Since the First Eagle met his dad's expectations, and thought his journey was over, he quit Scouting at 13, only to rejoin many years later when his own son became a Tiger Cub. Now the First Eagle had a cousin. Both "Double Eagle" Uncle and First Eagle Cousin pushed and pushed and pushed the Scout to earn his Eagle. As a 13 year old Life Scout, he was well on his way to becoming an Eagle at 14. But the Second Eagle took some winding trails after earning Life. First he did a local high adventure program instead of the traditional MB summer camp program, and he had FUN! A few months later he took the NYLT course of its day; Brownsea 22. It was a challenging week and he had FUN. Next Second Eagle was inducted into the OA, becoming a Brotherhood Member before earning eagle. Then Second Eagle went to a National Scout Jamboree and then did a Canadian canoeing trek. It it was FUN. Finally Second Eagle realized he was 17 and some odd months, and he needed to buckle down fast if he was to become an Eagle. He finished everything but his Eagle BOR 5 days before turning 18. And Second Eagle stayed active in Scouting. He got involved in Sea Scouts, earning Ordinary, and then the OA, becoming a Vigil. Second Eagle was selected to participate in the European camp Staff program and attend a World Scout Jamboree. He stayed active in a variety or roles, and was proudest when his three sons earned their Bobcat badge wit him as their DL. Now tell me who had more fun in Scouting, my cousin the First Eagle, or me the Second Eagle? Over the years, no one has asked me how old i was when i got it, or how many palms I earned. They ask if I am an Eagle, and what my adventures have been. And I can go on and on about my 35 years in Scouting as a youth and adult.

Again, in Red

or causes $1500 to $2000 worth of damage and gets the troop banned from staying at the location ever again. Yes, that happened in my old troop back in the day.

Back. Here are some examples of what I am talking about We have a committee member who is also a Wolf Den Leader. However he was a WDL, was fully trained as such, and got that the Webelos program of Cub Scouts is meant to transition both Cubs and their parents into Boy Scouts. He camps occasionally with us, but leaves the Scouts alone until the medical issue with his son arises. Only when it is a health and safety issue, specifically the medical issue his son has, does he get involved. He doesn't pack his son's clothes, go behind him when he camps to make sure the tent is up properly, interupts the PL or other older Scout doing instruction, od cooking and/or KP for the Scout. The new ASM above has indeed gone around checking and fixing tents, jumped in and taken over cooking and KP, and taken over instruction. Trying talk to get him and get him out of the Scouts' way results in being ignored or him getting angry. He is also the one who let his son sneak into the tent or shelter on 3 different occasions, then sat outside a shelter on a fourth until his son fell asleep. He has been talked to several times by me and others, yet continues to ignore us. One Scouter overheard him say he doesn't care what we say, if the son is scare and wants to sleep in his tent, he will let him. The parent does not see any harm in what he is doing. Nor does he encourage the Scout to be on his own. When I tried to talk the son into going back into the shelter, dad sat like a bump on the log not saying anything. We have some Moms that camp with us. They do not bring siblings, unless Webelos and invited. They do not go around making sure tents/hammocks are set up properly, cooking is done properly, etc. In fact the only time two of the moms got involved were for medical reasons. One did minor first aid on an adult, on another trip the other did first aid and then evacuated the adult. Again no going behind the Scouts, no trying to push advancement, just there for the trek. yes we have a mom whose soen will not camp unless she is there, and then goes around behind him. We had another new parent, CM of the feeder pack, who still believes that everything the Boy Scouts do they should get a badge for, just like Cub Scouts. He, and several of the new parents described above, got upset because one trip did not result in a merit badge that we covered some of the skills on. The CM then publicly posted how the PLC needs to change their meeting plans so that they would nto let the troop down and the Scouts could earn the MB. SPL handled it beautifully: he posted that programing is not suppose to result in MBs, but rather learn skills and having fun and that plans for the next 2 months, which would be needed to earn the MB in question, have already been made and needed to be followed to prepare for the next two camping trips. Then we got one parent who is so advancement focused, wanting her son to be an Eagle, that she has gone around the SM, and trying to play one Scouter against the other, so that her son can get MB counselor names and start earning them. The kid barely got Tenderfoot, hasn't been camping since summer camp b/c mom didn't want to do those camp outs or because they showed up late that it would not count towards adancement ( he didn't set up his own tent/shelter) and the leave because "what is the point of being here?" So my problem, and others, is not that parents are becoming involved. It is that parents are coming into the troop, ignoring the experienced leaders, doing their own thing, hurting their own sons, and the rest of the Scouts in the troop. It's to the point that some of the older Scouts will stop what they are doign and walk away from whaterver they are suppose to do because they know the interfering adults will do it for them. But give them the opportunity to do something away from the new parents, and they are jumping at the opportunity and begging their parent to let them go.

My replies will be in red

I wish it was as simple as sending a SAM up their exhaust pipes. They have a Gunship in their corner that provides suppressing fire on occasion (why I don't know because he is ticked off at some of their antics, and I bet his APL son didn't tell Gunship the situation he encountered this past camp out). Plus they are good at evading radar, nap of the earth flying, etc.

I got mixed emotions on the flag issue. If the purpose is just to get the flag and keep the SM ordering it and adding to the costs, I have an issue. If the purpose is to surprise the SM with the retired flag b/c he is stepping down, I'm cool with it. My troop did just that.

Wanted to give an update. Still waiting for the meeting. We lost 2 good Scouters last nite. One is moving out of state, And I hope I got him to believe in the Patrol Method. In the 3 years his son has been in the troop, I've watched the son mature and grow up. Dad didn't really believe in the PM in the beginning, and I had to reign him in at times. But I think once he realized if adults get out of the way, the kids perform. Sad loss for the troop, and especially the son's patrol. He was PL and had a lot of new guys he was working with. We also lost one because of the helicopters. He's doing one last trip. I hope that 2 things happen. #1 The Leaders meeting we will be happening soon will end all the Cub Scout babysitting. And #2 he will have fun on that last trip, and take a break and come back. As for me, I'm in a holding pattern. I am hoping and praying that this upcoming meeting will work out. Several other Scouters in the troop are tired of the helicoptering, including the SM. As for siblings, my goal is to help them realize that the parents are hurting their Scouts by not letting them get away, be independent, and try new things without the family around and B) hurting the sibling because by attending stuff with older brother, he will be bored when it is his turn because he has done it all already. It took me looking at my Webelos, who has family camped with his brothers since he was a toddler, and seeing him not want to do things because he has done them "forever."