Eagle94-A1

Only reason I know is that I was told by him to count the ballots. When i counted the ballots initially it was a tie, and I went to him for clarification. I am use to the SPL no longer being a patrol member, and thus not being able to vote for a PL. That's when he mentioned the absentee vote and gave it to me to count. Personally I wish the SPL would not have voted with the patrol, excuse was he is still a member until next week, and that the SPL, or outgoing PL, counted the votes. Agree completely. I know dad is pushing him to get Eagle, and I beleive he is really the one that wants son to be SPL or ASPL. My impression from working with him as a MBC is that he has fun with his buddies, but is only advancing to please dad. And the impression he is giving the Scouts is he doesn't want the POR. BUT back on topic, how can we get the adults to realize that the kids know who the better leaders will be and that they will vote accordingly? Piggy backing on David CO's comment, how can we get adults to realize that there is nothing wrong with a Scout not holding XYZ position?

I agree. Especially on that last sentence. Unfortunately the troop is very adult led. I got a compromise of sorts last year, and with the Scouts having more responsibility it was working. Regarding earning respect, THAT IS KEY! We have one Scout who is also complaining about not getting elected. But he has not earned the respect. In the past he has complained about duties and work. And the Scouts remember that stuff. They want someone they can depend upon. That's part of the problem. IMHO they are not being cultivated. We do not have regular PLCs, meetings before and/or after meetings, etc. Adults tend to jump in and take over instead of mentoring and having the Scouts learn from their mistakes. I've tried to talk and advise. but part of the problem is the frustration the Scouts feel due to adult. Give you a good example. SPL was working with new Scouts, when a parent took over the job. SPL just walked away and started goofing off.

Instead of putting this in Helicopter thread, starting a new one based on as specific issue, and one that will be raised at the upcoming adult meeting: troop elections. Here's background. currently the Scouts can have 1 six month term of office, and then cannot run for again for that position for six months. So I Sammy Second Class is PL from January to June, he cannot run for reelection until the next January. That was the rule before my son joined, and I've been told it is to spread the leadership roles around. Several ASMs and committee members are complaining that the same Scouts keep getting elected over and over again. They want to place term limits i.e. you can only hold a position twice. This has been mentioned before, but one of the MCs was complaining about it last night. Said her Scout is frustrated that the same people keep getting elected, and that he has never been elected PL or SPL, only appointed to another position. He ran for SPL, and didn't get it. He ran for PL, AND VOTED FOR THE OTHER PERSON! (emphasis) I know this because he wrote his ballot, gave it to the SM, and had to leave due to family issues. Again HE VOTED FOR THE OTHER PERSON! (emphasis). I mentioned this to the MC, and was told "he didn't want PL, he wanted SPL or ASPL, because no one listens to the PLs." (not listening to the PLS is another issue, focusing on the election one first.) Now here's the deal. I've talked to my sons to get a feel for what is going on in the troop. Regarding this particular Scout, my younger son told me who he voted for the PL who wanted the position, and that the Scout above doesn't seem to want to be PL. He didn't know about the absentee vote. Both sons stated they voted for the ones who they thought not only wanted the job, but would be good at it. And they commented on the entire slate of candidates. Some they didn't think would do a good job, The SPL elected had been SPL before and did a good job, so they voted for him. One is involved with sports, and they were concerned his sport would interfere as it had in the past when he was SPL. One they were concerned about his lack of expereince. And the Scout above they thought was not really interested in the job, and therefor would not do a good job. My thoughts are that the Scouts know who will, and who will not do a good job. I think they know better than the adults honestly because they are in the patrols with them and know them better. I also think expereinced Scouts know better than to make elections a popularity contest. The NSP that failed miserably had a popular PL, who was not truly interested in doing the job, and complained about it the entire term of office. So to prepare for this discussion, I want your thoughts, times you've been in this situation, and how you countered the arguments for adult interference. I am one of those who cannot think fast on my feet, but rather need to think ahead and come up with points deliberatively. So your help is welcomed. Thanks in advance.

It's British. http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/18314-58-pattern-sleeping-bag/ suggest using a NikWax wash. REI has this advice for down. https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/caring-sleeping-bag.html

Yes, they can call law enforcement on you for trespassing if you don't follow the rules. We had a group at camp setting off fireworks, and they were kicked out of camp. Another time one "Scout" was causing so much trouble at summer camp, that the SM wanted him gone and contacted the parents. When the parents said no, they would not pick him up, it went to the camp director. Camp director discussed it with the parents and gave them a time limit to settle their bill, come home from their second honeymoon at Disney, and pick up the "Scout." Otherwise he would be turned over to authorities as trespassing.

#1 Don't know #2 Partially Correct. One Scout came from either Argentina,or Chile I thought, to New York's 1939 World's Fair by himself. I forgot how long it took, but remember he started with his Patrol. Some got sick and returned home. 1 died on the trek. All malaria if I recall. The remaining patrol members got arrested as revolutionaries and imprisoned until released. That's when the bulk went home. Read a book on him back in the day. EDITED: Ok, found the reference Stosh was talking about. Two men walked 8,000 miles from Caracas, Venezuela to Washington D.C. in 1937. The men wanted to attend the Boy Scout Jamboree but didn't have the funds to pay for the trip. They departed from Caracas on January 11, 1935 and covered a distance of 25 miles a day for two years. The young men reached their destination on June 16, 1937, to register themselves for the jamboree. http://www.lifebuzz.com/how-far/?p=-1&utm_campaign=email&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email Trying to find the Scout from Chile who went to New York i 1939 or 40.

Forgot to add, I've carried a Bent's Fort Scalper and a Becker 21 knives.

I've known about the changes since August. The camporee I was in charge of was wilderness survival based, and a few events required a sheath knife. FWIW, the council does not have a policy against sheath knives at the local camp the event was held at. But they are prohibited at summer camp. So councils can make their own rules, even if legal in your jurisdiction. When I visited the neighboring council, i asked if they would sell those Helle knives, answer is no b/c that council prohibits them.

I notice there is still no date on any BSA publication except 'Fall 2018" But the National Catholic Committee on Scouting gives a date of January 1, 2018.

I'm going by memory, so bear with me. The PATROL came first. When BP wrote his Aids to Scouting: NCOs and Men prior to 1905, he was surprised to find many boys creating their patrols and doing what he wrote for the military on their own. These impromptu patrols are one of the things that led to the experiment at Brownsea Island in 1907. Even at Brownsea, he separated those first 22 Scouts into patrols: Wolves, Bulls, Ravens, and CURLEWS! ( yes I'm a Cocky Curlew of the Brownsea Camp...) No where was the term "troop" used at Brownsea as far as I recall. Here is where it gets interesting, and memory can prove wrong. When Scouting for Boys was printed in a series of articles, patrols were springing up everywhere. Patrols had no adult supervision, and were getting into trouble. One story I read involved a patrol trespassing on property they were camping on. All was well, but BP got wind of it, and decided Scoutmasters needed to be involved in the process for supervision. And Scouting For Boys the book was written with only 2 page references to Scoutmasters. At least in the World Brotherhood Edition of Scouting for Boys based upon William Hillcourt's version ( requirements for ranks were removed, more BP art, and oriented to the Canadian Scouts.') SO IT IS AN EDITED VERSION OF THE ORIGINAL BOOK! ( emphasis) In the book, "Patrol" is used on 29 Pages compared to "Troop" on 6 pages. So obviously B-P, and later William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, emphasized the importance of the patrol over the troop. BUT WHAT CAME FIRST, EAGLE94-A1, THE PATROL OR THE TROOP? Apparently it is the.... PATROL. On page 30 It states "To be a Scout you should join a Scout PATROL (emphasis added) or a Scout Troop in you neighborhood....." Page 38 defines a Scout Troop as "...two or more patrols of six to eight boys." So according to B-P, A troop cannot exist until 2 or more patrols are formed. Hope this helps.

Ok, I know I made the camporee Webelos Friendly. Heck all the events save one were based upon Wilderness Survival MB, and Castaway Adventure Badge is Wilderness Survival MB lite. So it was natural. Plus events were optional for the Webelos. Their 'camporee" comes in March. The purpose of Webelos attending is to A) get them use to their potential troop and help with Recruiting B) Show them what to expect as Boy Scouts, and C ) HAVE FUN! But "Cub Friendly?" An aside, we had one local camp ground reopen, and one new parents is happy b/c it is 500' from city limits. I have a feeling the PLC will be having a "Heck No" over that suggestion.

HOLY CRAP! You now got me thinking about my camporee. My DE created a Cub Scout event the same weekend and location as our camporee. Initially no one knew about it, and I posted it was a mistake and that no Cub Scout event was planned. Then I got a nastygram from the DE saying in no uncertain terms that the Cub event WILL go on, and that it will not interfere with the Camporee. Well it did. I had to spend extra money buying supplies to mark off the Cub Scout area from a campsite that 2 troops were using. I also had to spend time rearranging events and reshooting the compass course since one event was now in the Cub area, and the course took them through the Cub area. Then when the DE could not make it, I got left hanging. And supposedly Cubs were not suppose to camp, but I know of at least 1 that did. And I got all kinds of heck when I tried to tell the troop that it wasn't allowed. Eventually I said the heck with it since I told the DE that there would be Cubs camping, even if they were not suppose to. Maybe getting the camporee "family friendly" was the point of him making a Cub event the same place and time?

I think what Col. Flagg is trying to point out is that national's marketing and publishing folks are pushing articles and merchandise in an attempt to get us use to the changes that are coming before they happen. And I do agree with him. It seems as if national is trying to get us acclimated to the idea before they announce it. And in addition to the family camping articles with Boy Scout age youth, has anyone seen some of the PSAs aout Scouting for the whole family that have the Boy Scouts camping and doing things with Cub Scouts? If I can find the link, i'll post

Going to go off on a tangent. And moderators, if this is going too far off base, let me know. A recent story I was told keeps hitting me when I see this thread. Not only should parents stay out of they way, but I'm thinking sometimes it's a good thing for adult Scouters to miss something so their sons can experience stuff with out them around. I say that because I was told about a Scout whose dad has been on every single trip since he has been a Cub Scout. Heck, the kid has never done anything outside of Scouting without either his dad or mom attending. Now the son is getting ready to graduate and is terrified of leaving home and being by himself. Scout has been offered several out of state athletic scholarships, but will not take them because he is afraid to leave home. Scout won't even look at in-state colleges, including the one where his aunt lives. She has offered to put him up. Instead he wants either to go tot he local private college, or go to the community college, and then transfer to an in-state college he can do online courses so he can stay home with dad.

To quote the Emperor, ' EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT!"

Oh man, this would be funny if it didn't hit close to home. We had one camp out with an extremely similar scenario. We were at the local scout camp and had several families show up. It wasn't suppose to be a family camp out, but it turned into one. Between that camp out and the Tiger and his family camping at camporee with older brother, I've seen the frustration with the older Scouts. When I mentioned about the families causing problems, I was told the troop "needs to be family friendly." I know my sons and one of their friends were not interested in this month's camp out because it was another "family " one since it was in conjunction with the joint pack-troop fundraiser. They rather go backpacking the following week.

Yes, the original 22 Boy Scouts at Brownsea were divided into 4 patrols: the Curlews, Ravens, Bulls, and Wolves. BP experimented with both 5 man and 6 man patrols. Eagle94-a1 Cocky Curlew, BA22

Have you asked your sons what they want you to do? When moms show up, the dynamics do change, whether consciously or unconsciously. When the 1989 decision to allow female ASMs and SM came, we did get one long time female MC switch over to ASM. She knew the deal: adults do not interfere unless safety is concerned, and acted accordingly. But her two sons DID act differently on the trips she attended. Somehow it got back to her that her sons didn't really want her around all the time because they felt she was hovering over them. She backed off and only did 3 camp outs after that in the 5 years she remained in the troop. two involved her hobby, cycling, and one was due to not having enough adults able to go, a 10 day trip to summer camp. That was the unconscious. My conscious one is a trip that we planned for almost a year that turned into a family camp out. Long story short, the mom's complained about the weather, and would not let the siblings do some of the activities. When the siblings started whining about the Scouts doing stuff and they couldn't, the mom's called off the activity. They were suppose to be support, and when they cancelled, it ruined the entire trip. And not only did we plan it for almost a year, it took us 7 hours one way to get there. Additionally one of the siblings caused $1500 to $2000 worth of damage ( this was almost 30 years ago, you can adjust for inflation) which caused us to be banned from the place we were staying at. Troop never did another family camp until every single Scout on that trip either left or aged out. Sadly my troop IS adult led. That is something I have been working on for several years. This time last year, we had major problems. They finally got worked out, and while not 100% Scout led, the batch of adults for adult led started seeing the light. Strides were made, and the troop was a heck of a lot better than just 6 months before. The first batch of new Scouts and parents we got in January were not a problem. Their WDLs trained them well and they integrated smoothly. This second batch however, has been extremely rough. The adults do not want to let go control and let their kids grow up. They want to control every aspect of their sons' Scouting. OK we got one Scout with a medical condition requiring dad to stay with him at night. Soif dad cannot go he cannot either. That's valid. But we got moms who will not let the sons camp without her or dad. We got a dad who lets his son sneak into the tent with him. So yes, the troop is adult led. A lot of factors were involved in it too.

It could also be that they see something they look forward to being so watered down that they do not see the purpose. When the Scouts are polite and tell the new parents that they got it, and the parents ignore them, so the older Scouts just walk away and let the parents do their work. Sadly in my instance the "Come to Jesus" meetings, yes plural" have had no effect and the new parents are doing what they want. Heck now the parents have some financial influence they "gave" the troop $3000 from a joint pack/troop fundraiser. Troop only sold $600 worth of tickets, while the pack, which has done it for 3 or 4 years now, sold over $6000 worth. But the troop cancelled their planed camping trip to work the fundraiser, and provided 95+% of the manpower to do the fundraiser. SO the helicopters, who ran the event, are giving us 1/2 of the money, as long as we buy equipment. From the sounds of it, it is equipment THEY want to buy. Waiting for a Scouters' meeting to find out what is going on.

Or the Scouts are so fed up with adults taking over and overruling what they want that they say "WHATEVER." Man this is starting to sound like some of the stuff going on in my troop in the Helicopter parent thread.

In 2016, my troop did have two separate backpacking trips. One was the AT, and the requirements were First Class or higher, and do two of the three prep trips. The only exception was an ASM who didn't do any of the prep trips, and had not backpacked in over 18 years. He was the one with major issues, to the point that he collapsed on the trail. Now the standard is do the prep trips OR completed a previous AT trip. I know I got my work cut out for me if I can schedule the vacation. The second trip was the weekend of the AT. Anyone could go, and it was much, much shorter. Out of 18 Scouts who were not on the AT, only 4 decided to do the second, shorter trip. The Scouts did not want to bother with the non-AT trip because it was not the AT. Funny thing is, all 4 of those Scouts did the AT this year, and the other adult I backpacked with. We had 2 crews on the AT, and it strained resources. part of it is the WFA requirement. Currently we only have 3 folks with it, and only 2 could go that week.

How ironic. I bet the folks who came up with this never read B-P's Aids to Scoutmasters since Scouting is NOT suppose to be like school. In fact, I found quotes from BP who said school teachers should not be Scouters since they would try to turn the program into school. If that is what the current WB course teaches, I will never take it as it is so far from BP's vision. And if that is what new Scouters are being taught, then I see an uphill battle on keeping traditional Scouting alive. My thoughts on quality control is MENTORING. Training only gets you the basics. Without experience training only gets you so far. That is why experienced Scouters need to work with new Scouters. It worked with me and I've mentored many new leaders over the years. But it is a two way street. Not only do you need to have experienced Scouters who want to mentor, but also inexperienced Scouters who are willing to be mentored. That's the current situation in my troop. We have a bunch of new parents with 4.5 years of Cub Scouter experience, but zero Boy Scout or Boy Scouter experience. Several have completed SM Specific and IOLS. But they still have no idea despite the training. They are constantly questioning why things are done, why their sons are not advancing as fast as others, etc. They do not want to talk rationally, they confront and complain. They are not willing to listen.

Tell me about it. I still have not told SWMBO how much her uniform actually cost, nor how long it took to collect the pieces (hint: as soon as oldest was a Tiger, I started collecting pieces and she became an ADL when youngest was a Wolf). Suffice to say it was a Christmas present, and the only one she got, that year. With the exception of the "NC" everything is period authentic. Do not know if she will keep it after youngest crosses over or not. But if not, it will be sold on the Big Auction Site or donated to a museum. And you would think NC would be easy to find.

Grant you it's been 20+ years, but Youlbury International Scout Campsite ( world's oldest continually used Scout camp by the way ) didn't have individual cubicals when I worked there. Regarding informing the parents, that concerns me, and over here that would be a major Youth Protection violation.

True. But if national and councils can use reproductions for various functions, why not those in the field? I've been to Jambo and a NOAC where reproductions were being worn. Ditto at council events.