Eagle94-A1

With the tone and body language he was using, he insulted every single Scout by calling them "children." As I stated in another post, THEY ARE MY SCOUTS (emphasis) Just as I am sure you get quite ticked off and defensive of your sons when others insult them, YOU INSULT MY SCOUTS AND YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH ME ( again emphasis). Further, as a registered Cub leader, he should know about all the safety guidelines and policies that BSA has implemented. Since his wife went to summer camp, he should know that we had Scouters renewing their certifications so we can do things safely, instead of hovering over Scouts at classes like his wife did with her son. The 18 to 24 month long Webelos Program is suppose to the the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. I've worked with 2 Webelos dens, and both implemented that transition. Those parents when they move up get it. No problems. But through observation and talking to a freind who is with the pack these parents came from, the pack treats Webelos as Cub Scouts, and has the habit of pencil whipping requirements. We got three Cubs crossing over tomorrow. I've only seen 1 visit us at a meeting. Same one also went camping with us. So the question is How did they earn AOL without the visits and camp out/ outdoor activity? To me that is an identifiable problem. Again their is suppose to be an 18 to 24 month long transition period called Webelos. Again the two Webelos dens I worked with, their members have had no problems integrating with the troop. 3rd patrol from that pack had a member with issues because he had patrol mates in his NSP that came from packs that did not implement such a program. He was so frustrated b/c Scouting was not what he was promised and almost quit. Regarding advancement, that is now part of the AOL's Scouting Adventure, specifically 2. Visit a Boy Scout troop meeting with your parent or guardian and, if possible, with your den members and leaders. After the meeting, do the following: Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement. Describe ranks in Boy Scouting and how they are earned. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned. Upon reflection, I do not think the helicopter parents sons ever did the troop visit either. Maybe that is the problem, the pencil whipping? Yes, we have gone over things over and over and over and over. And as I stated, they are not listening. It almost as if they do not care how things are suppose to be, how they are hurting the other Scouts, nor even listening to their own sons. THEY WANT EAGLE SCOUTS. (emphasis) An aside, the two sets of helicopter have both mentioned at various times how their sons are either "not interested" or "losing interest fast." Why are they forcing their sons to do something they are not interested in? No, there is nothing wrong. I earned several MBs before First Class, in addition to the required First Aid MB at the time. Both my sons have MBs they earned before First Class. But instead of having them focus on the basics, which they need to go camping and do activities, it's as if they are pushing their sons to do MBs. If the family is willing to learn, I am OK with being patient. But when a family is unwilling to be patient themselves That's a problem. When a family ignores multiple conversations and meeting and wants things done their way. I have a problem. When a family attempts to play 2 ASMs against the SM to get what they want, I have a problem. When a family is jealous about one Scout advancing faster than their son and complains, I have a problem. Further when the Scout shows no interest in the program, refuses to do his share of the work, and causes problems, for is patrol mates to the point that adults are having to intervene all the time, then YES I do wish that scout would quit. I had a problem Scout in my patrol briefly, and it almost destroyed the patrol. We had such a Scout in the troop's NSP, and he is oneof the reasons why we do not use NSPs. That's what talking to your son about his trips is suppose to be about. Heck I am at most camp outs, by I let my sons alone for th most part. It's on the ride home that I get the details. More later.

Mom is doing the dragging. Kid is more interested in Pokemon Go. They were some of the biggest complainers about advancement, wanting to know why we discourage Merit Badge Universities (because they give away MBs) to why we some Scouts get so many at one time and not their son ( because they may have started work on a 3, 6,9, 18,.48 months previously and finally completed it) to why don't we recommend MBs before First Class ( so they can focus on the basic Scouting skills), to why can't we sign off on advancement ( this is not Cub Scouts, we want not only qualified people signing off, but we also want no appearance of favoritism). I am hoping the parents realize he has no interest.

To true. 90% of the problems we have in my troop are adult related. Good news is that my sons don't see the problems and want to stay. But they know I got the Scouts interest.

I think what started the 'pencil whipping' was Operation First Class that started in 1989. That was when the push for First Class in a year came about.

Well, today was the day we had the parent's meeting. Here is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. The Good: We now have a committee that will do the work. We have a mix of old and new parents involved. part of the hope is that by given everyone a job, they won't bug the Scouts. Fingers are crossed. The Bad: Some issues, i.e. problems with families, needing to use more of the Patrol method, etc were glossed over. Mostly due to the.... The Ugly: Several uglies to be exact. One was concerning advancement. How advancement is done has been gone over 2 or more times, depending upon the new parent, was gone over again, and some of them still don't get it. They expect their Scouts to earn something EVERY meeting and camp out. One of my friends posted a head banging on the wall gif. Very frustrating. But worse, was the comment that insulted me and several other Scouters. The dad of the Scout who is not allowed to camp unless mom camps too, a dad who has never been on a single camp out with us ever, questioned the safety of his son on trips since we are not essentially hovering over the Scouts. THAT. TICKED.ME OFF. Especially since he is a registered Cub Scout leader, and supposedly knows about the G2SS, etc. Apparently he wants us hovering over the Scouts all the time since "they are just children." I admit the "just children" comment ticked me off to no end. As an 11 year old "child," I had to do basic first aid until EMTs arrived and brought someone to the ER. When I got hypothermia in Canada, it was a 15 year old "child" who recognized I had hypothermia and started treatment. It was the 13 to 17 year old "children" in my patrol who continued treating me. And when I was injured returning from a water rescue, it was a 15 year old "child" who recognized that I was not OK, and was in shock and that the "shoulder looks funny." We follow the guidelines. We have multiple people with certifications and training, just in case. I was involved in a water rescue of a Scout that resulted in me spending 4 weeks in a sling waiting to have surgery .That surgery left a 1" and a 5.5" scars as a reminder of that day. Then I spent another 7.5 weeks in an arm immobilizer so my shoulder could heal. Then I did another 6 months doing rehab so I could get some of my mobility and strength back.. I still do not have 100% mobility, and suffer pain when it gets cold or rains. But I am not concerned about safety because I am not hovering over their scout all the time? We had another Scouter willing to spend over $300 and a weekend to get the needed WFA certification to take the guys on the AT. He also purchased a PLB and WFA kit supplies, but we are not concerned about safety? We have 4 first aid kits, plus several of us carry our own kits, but we are not concerned about safety? That ticked several of us off. And one Scouter is very concerned. His impression of the conversation is that if anything happens to that guy's son, he'll be suing. He is now considering taking out personal liability insurance because of this one parent. One thing I was heard part of the conversation dealt with equipment. #1 priority is new stoves. The ones we have are 30+ years old, and are unreliable. We are down to one that works most of the time, and adults have been lending personal stoves to the patrols to cook on. The Scouts also want some other equipment. including tents. Some of the tents are damaged and not usable, and others missing pieces due to neglect But they can be cannibalized and are still viable. But these tents are not the best, and the troop is looking into phasing in new backpacking tents, one patrol at a time. I wasn't there for the rest of the conversation, but apparently this ticked off the dad above. He wanted to know why his son had to deal with old tents that someone else damaged and not use a new tent. Do not know how that went. We got another meeting next month set up. I'm taking this a month at a time.

Considering some of my Scouts have kids who are Scouts themselves, I feel that remark. One of my Eagles had his son's troop within 20 miles of my troop on the AT. They started a few days before my troop started, but part of their trek was our trek.

Guide to Advancement section 5.0.4.0 Covers "Youth From Other Countries," but considering she is a US citizen, I do not think it will apply. BUT if BSA decides to allow her credit for any advancement up to Life, then that is their loophole.

I do not consider myself "old guard" since I have sons in the troop. Now I do consider myself "Old School" since I believe BP was the greatest SM ever, and Green Bar Bill the greatest SPL, but that is a different story. All joking aside, I know it is hard to give up control of something you that you still have skin in the game. Especially when you invested so much blood, sweat, tears, and treasure on. When my middle son became a Tiger, and I had to be his partner at day camp, I gave up being the day camp program director. Which as some of you long timers know, I was doign that job AND the CD's job at the time. Handing over reigns to day camp was hard. I spent two years as PD, and more than doubled the attendance over that time. People were having a great time. I wanted that to continue. But the new PD had his own ideas. Despite my warnings about the CD, he ignored them, and there were challenges. Instead of listening to how and why I got things done, he did his own thing. That was hard, especially since some of the things I had experienced and knew would not work. Thankfully I got into a new hobby, and got out of his hair. But camp suffered that year. It was very hard dealing with that, especially since two of my sons were affected. I was asked to come back, and I did for one year. We fixed a lot of the issues, but we took a hit that year in attendance. Youngest became a Tiger and I had to step down again. The following year was the worse year ever at camp. We were so short staffed, that I spent more time running ranges than I did with my Tiger. The new CD and my replacement PD did not work well together, and camp suffered greatly. The following year there was no day camp in my district. So I can see why some are afraid to let go. Just like the youth, adults need to " Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" the new folks. BUT I recommend the new folks listen to the old guard sinc ethey have "been there, done that."

The lodge I grew up in has had mixed relations with the local tribe, despite having members in the lodge. At one time, we had excellent relations, then a group of yahoos got involved int he lodge. I do not know the full story, but the local tribe asked us to disband the dance team, which we did. While the yahoos did their own thing still, eventually AIA died. Then we got some youth who were really interested in AIA. They reestablished the relationship, helps when one of your fellow Arrowman is kin to the principle chief , and we got it back up and running with their blessing. And we have helped each other out when I was down there. Current lodge has an extremely amiable relationship with local tribes. I discovered that one of the local drums was formed by members of the lodge at the primary Scout camp years ago. Several of our AIA folks are on that drum, and one or two others. One of our Arrowman was head male dancer at one of the local powwows.

I think you are missing my point: the double standard. While you can have two females working with an all male den, you MUST have a female working with an all girl den. In my experience as a DL, it was the fathers who stayed around and helped out. Occasionally mothers were there and helped. But for the most part the mothers would always gravitate to committee roles. While I know first hand that 2 adults, and in some cases even more, are needed to work with dens, under BSA's new rules, YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE FEMALE TO WORK WITH THE GIRLS BUT YOU DO NOT NEED ONE MALE TO WORK WITH THE BOYS! ( caps for emphasis) So you cannot have a bunch of dads working with their daughters. But a bunch of moms can work with their sons. BSA needs to either keep the current policy, or change it to a fairer one.

Correct. Or keep it as it is currently which is X=Male Y=Female CS= Cub Scout of either gender Den Leaders Single Gender Den XX or YY or XY CS, CS, CS, CS

" REALLY?"

Well if we don't want men alone with girls, why allow women to be alone with boys? As I see it, the girls are not in the program yet, but their is already a double standard in how we treat them.

Notice that a FEMALE leader is required for the girls, but a male leader is not required for the boys. Irony for me is that the one person I know a female Scouter who had their membership revoked.

One of the challenges is that a lot of folks do not know how the OA actually helped the 500+ different Native American cultures in North America. I know Arrowman, who have done research for local, state recognized to help get them federal recognition. I know an Arrowmen who have done research to help reintroduce lost arts. And I can go on and on.

Regarding two deep leadership, anyone notice the double standard? An all boys den only needs 'One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old" whereas an all girl den requires "One registered leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old, and a Youth Protection trained adult female must be present." (bold for emphasis, underline in original) See the screen capture from the video.

Sorry, getting confused with my old age. Correct WC earned up until August 1, 1989 ( when I was in the middle of earning it in Canada ) I read somewhere, Mike Walton perhaps, that the flag was worn when doing international activities. Don't quote me on that.

Call me cynical, but I would not be surprised if they allow her to do it. Just finished watching the webinar, and they want any girls joining January 15th to cram 7 months of work in 4 months.

Cub Scouts in the 1980s had it over the right pocket. I want to say in 1989, when the flag came with the uniform, was when it went on the right sleeve for Cubs. Boy Scouts had to earn it at one point I am told. Then it was placed onthe sleeve.

SO.VERY.TRUE. That is the challenge, getting both sides to sit down and talk out the issues. If one or both sides will not sit down and talk, it will only get worse. When my troop was having major adult issues last year, it wasn't until we all sat down by ourselves and talked it over. Neither side got everything they wanted, but compromise was made. IMHO, I think I made a few converts to for the Patrol Method. Now if I could just make them realize they need to give responsibility and authority to the Scouts, and have them sitting down, playing card games, and drinkin coffee. But we got a goal, and worked in it. Conflct between the two groups ceased. Sadly we have some of the new parents who either have not attended any of the adult meetings, or refuse to follow the policies implemented by the troop to insure the Scouts get the most out of their experience. We have meeting for every adult involved in the troop this weekend since we have a day activity scheduled for the Scouts. Word has gotten out that it is important that everyone attend. Unfortunately it seems as if the most challenging new parents, the ones causing so many problems that 4 Scouters are saying the heck with it, (and all 4 have kids in the troop and have less than 6 years with the troop, Don't know if you would call them "Old Guard" or "Expereinced"), look as if they will not attend due to "other commitments." Yet this is the date everyone agreed upon, except me and one other person. And we will both be there.

Apparently, National is allowing councils the option to "soft launch" allowing girls in grades 1-4, NO 5TH GRADERS ALLOWED, as early as January 1st to test out implementing girls. IMHO this should have been thought out before they even announced allowing girls into the program. 5th grade girls won't be allowed until the 10-18 year old Girl program is unveiled. I'm getting this from a FB post of a letter sent to council and area key 3s. There is a webinar tonite in Livestream about the soft implementation. And from reading that letter, it looks like June 1 will be when girls are allowed officially.

Since we got a negative sterotype of old school Scouters, let me offer this negative stereotype of new volunteers. You have these just crossed over parents who had little to no interaction with the troop their sons have joined who try and take over. Since they never visited the troop, let alone camped with them, while their sons were Webelos, they do not understand the "unorganized chaos" of the Patrol Method. They complain that the leaders are not doing an effective job and want the Scouters to jump in and do stuff that the Scouts are fully capable of doing. Just not up to an adult standard yet. They complain that meetings are not advancement oriented and their sons are not earning anything. They complain when other Scouts who joined at the same time as their son is advancing ahead of their son. They are constantly following their child around on camp outs, jumping in and helping their child until either A) they finally listen to the SM and ASMs or B) they throw a temper tantrum and threaten to leave (if I'd known that that one was not going to fully complete a commitment he made, I would have said "Go.") When work on a MB isn't fully done by a campout, they expect the Scouters to change the PLC's plans so that their sons can earn a MB. They are constantly trying to get their sons signed off on advancement, even when not fully earned. And they try to play two different ASMs against the SM trying to find a MBC for their new Scout ( SM was trying to find a MBC since the one the troop used was dying. Mom would not take "let me work on it as an answer"). And when they are not getting their way, they go around the SM, find MBCs from other councils they know, and organize their own trips, which can cause conflicts with existing plans the PLC has made. In essence it is all about their son getting Eagle as soon as possible. They do not understand the goals and methods of Scouting. They see Eagle as the only thing.

Why national wants to standardize all the training courses.

FYI, they will ALWAYS be your Scouts. When they graduate from boot camp, college, etc they will be YOUR Scouts. When they celebrate marriages and births, they will be YOUR Scouts. When they are in their 30s and have sons, and soon daughters, in the program, They will be your Scouts. Once yours, always yours.

NYLT is a week long course similar to WB. except there is no ticket. Rock Doc's program sound more like the old training from the 1980s, or maybe older, that I took to be "trained" as a PL. My course was TLT, but on a camp out.