Eagle94-A1

Towards the bottom of the page on November 9th.

It hurts the Scouts. No MBCs who know what they are doing so the Scouts could work with. Grant you, I can count on two hands the number of times I've been contacted to work on a MB outside of summer camp or a MBU in the past 25 years. But my son has had to contact MBCs, and they were all unit leaders too. In my neck of the woods, the Cub program was under a micromanager who ran off anyone willing to help. We are slowly recovering. Everyone involved with district level Cub programs is a unit leader,whether Cub Scout or Boy Scout: Cubmobile (Cub Scout Leader), Pinewood Derby and Webeloree (Boy Scouters), Day Camp (mix of both). While I wish we had enough volunteers so I can relinquish my district hats, we don't. heck the DE is panicking b/c I've been doing both RTs for 2 years now, and I tenderd my resignation effective May 3rd.

It is to me since I am dealing with the situation. Even after the 3rd group meeting, and individual one on ones, they still don't get it. Here irony. I quoted the line 'Failure, the best teacher it is" in regards to Scouting. And one of the Helicopters gives it a thumbs up. yet she won't let her son try stuff on his own in case he fails.

DSA is a very rare knot. Outside of NOAC and Jambo, I've only met 3 individuals with it, and they helped create OA Trail Crew.

Chess is a lot more than setting up a board and playing 3 games. It's about history, strategies, maneuvers, etc. Both of my Scouts have been playing competitvely for years, and some of the requirements they knew nothing about until they started teaching it at meetings. Oldest still doesn't know Scholar's Mate.

We already know what National will do if there is pushback on tougher requirements: CAVE IN (emphasis). I say that because National caved in on the new Cub Scout requirements less than 18 months after they came out. National also caved in on the camping requirements for Second and First Class within 18 months of them becoming required. And National caved in on the Eagle Palms TWICE! First time they ignored 94% of those polled who believe strongly or very strongly that palms should not be awarded instantly and the 3 months tenure is important. Then when people were upset with the arbitrary deadline, they decided to retroactively award all the palms for current Boy Scouts as many demanded.

I've told the Tale of Two Eagles often enough on this website that I don't think I need to repeat it. But suffice to say my cousin earned Eagle with my uncle pushing Eagle at 13 and quit shortly thereafter. I was Life at 13, completed the project at 14 years, 7 months and I don't remember how many days. I had fun prior to earning Life, the real adventures came afterward: Brownsea 22, OA, jamboree, Canada trek. Earned the last MB, Personal Management, 5 days before 18. I had a blast. Don't know how much fun cousin had as a youth, but as a Scouter, he didn't push his son to get Eagle. But son is an Eagle, and stayed around until going to college.

Interesting question. For some Scouters, and most especially parents, not getting Eagle is considered failure. To them I quote: "Failure, the best teacher it is." BUT WHAT DID THE SCOUT FAIL AT REALLY? The goal of Scouting is NOT earning Eagle, but "...helping boys become men, training them for citizenship." Will that "Life for life" be a good citizen? That is what we should be asking. The Scout who saved my life in Canada never got past Star. Do I consider him a failure because he didn't earn Eagle and I did. No I do not. Do I consider the Scout who has no interest at all on working on advancement a failure because he is happy to remain a First Class Scout, despite meeting the requirements for Star? No I do not. He's been a great PL, SPL and other roles. As others said, it's a journey. Key is to have fun and learn.

The problem lies when MBCs do not do there jobs properly and award MBs that the Scouts could not earn in a few hours. And there is pressure for MBCs at these events to award MBs. I'd rather someone earn a partial and learn something about a topic and have a good time, than just receive a MB for showing up. I find that it cheapens the work others do to actually earn the award. I'll take Chess MB as an example. One camp essentially gives it away after a Scout plays 3 or 4 games. There is actually a lot more to it than playing games. Oldest has been playing Chess competitively since Cub Scouts, and started the MB at the first event he attended as a Boy Scout, a troop chess tourney. He never got around to finishing it because when he went to summer camp, that camp was giving the MB away. It lost all appeal to him. While he has taught parts of the MB to his troop, including those who already have the MB and should know this stuff, he could care less about it.

I know when I Crossed Over in 1985, my buddies signed up for First Year Camper, and the rest of those going to summer camp signed up for MB classes. I didn't go that summer, so I cannot comment. When I did go to summer camp in '86, I was taking MB classes. That troop, the one I grew up in, essentially had a policy: 5 MBs classes max, preferably 4. Everyone, adults and Scouts, wanted you to have at least 1 free period to have fun doing free swim, boating, and shooting. Plus a lot of the MBs required extra work outside of class. I remember many a night that I was working on MBs under a lantern. Only exceptions to the rule were 1st Year Camper and the HA program. 1st year was essentially an all day class. HA took you out of the base camp for 3.5 days. At some point in the 1990s, my council came up with "Winter Camp," December 26th -31st. It was popular then, and I believe it still is. Thankfully I didn't have to work it since that is when national does inventory. When I moved to NC, that is when I first felt pressure to give MBs to folk and saw my first MBU. When I taught Lifesaving MB at summer camp, my class was too big, about 25-30 Scouts. I had discipline problems too that affected me teaching everyone. After I sent them back to the campsite the first day, I was told I cannot do that. The Scouts must stay in class. So I was unable to work on all of the skills needed for the MB due to size and discipline. I refuse to give MBs away, and no one got Lifesaving that week. I had so many complaints, especially form the troublemakers SM, that the CD no longer let me teach Lifesaving MB. That was almost 20 years ago. I heard improvements to the camp had been made. And from what I heard it got better. But that was not the case. When the troop went to that camp in 2016, we had Scouts "earn" MBs that the didn't really earn. In one case, a Scout decided to quit a MB after the first session and switch to another MB instead. He got both! We got Scouts who "earned" Canoeing or Kayaking MB, but could not paddle in a straight line, or longer that 20 minutes. And those classes were 2 hour ones! As for the MBU, I taught at them 2 times, and had my oldest go to one. I taught the first year they had it, and told folks it would be a partial unless they did stuff prior to coming. I also gave everyone my contact info. Out of 30 people in the class, 2 did the paperwork before hand, and 1 contacted me afterwards to finish up. I was not asked to come back and teach that MB the next year. My suspicion is that folks expected a completion instead of a partial. Several years later, my son went to the MBU, and I asked if they wanted Indian Lore again. They accepted. Again advertised it was a partial unless paperwork done before hand and gave out contact info. 1 person turned in paperwork, and no one followed up. And I was not asked back. Son "earned" two MBs that day. I had reservations. One he did all the requirements for. It was a very small class, and non stop from his description. He learned something and actually earned that first MB. The second MB was a completely different story. Not only did he not do all of the requirements, the MBC was using 10+ year old requirements for the ones they did. In essence, only 1 requirement was completed, but he "earned" the MB. After a long chat with him, we came to an understanding, he would complete ALL the requirements from the year his MBC started. Thankfully they were either very similar or identical to the current ones. When I told the SM and ASM about what happened, ASM told me his story about when he taught a MB at the MBU previously. Long story short, class advertised as a partial. Scouts came in expecting completions to the points they rudely demanded the MBCs teaching the class to "Just sign off the freaking MB." Needless to say we discourage MBUs.

With all do respect, I disagree. Yes the COR works in the background, But I bet you a Dutch oven pizza that you have been to activities with your units: whether it was Scout Sunday services, Blue and Gold, Court of Honor, and that people at least know your face. IMHO part of being a good COR is checking on your units time to time. While our CC/COR is very hands off, he still does BORs to keep a pulse on the troop. He attended a Cross Over, and questioned why we were not getting any of those Scouts in our troop (different story for another time, CC/COR was cool with it though). And he is there for Scout Sunday. The handful of CORS I've seen at least came to functions on occasion. So do you owe me a DO pizza or I owe you?

Please do not take offense, as it is not meant as a criticism of you. Let's face it, active CORs are so rare, that most people do not know anything about the role. Heck, I was a trained ASM and sitting on the district committee, and I didn't know anything about the position, except you had to have one in order to recharter. It wasn't until I was a DE, 3 years after joining a district committee, and was in DE school that I learned of the responsibilities it entailed. So most folks do not understand that ultimately the COR is responsible for Scouting at the CO, and htey sit on both the district and council committees with full voting rights. Because they are not seen or involved in the program, many people will view the uninvolved COR as uninformed and interfering when they finally start doing their job. And sometimes even CORs do not understand their role and responsibilities. We had a pack in deep trouble, and it was all adult leadership caused. It was affecting not only the Cubs who dropped, but also the troop since they were getting no Scouts. I and my boss had a meeting with the COR to discuss the matter and offer suggestions. THEY DID NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED! (emphasis). The COR was duel registered as an ASM with the troop, knew exactly what the problem was, knew he had the ability to fix it, but viewed it as a Cub Scout pack problem for them to solve, not him. So the problem continued for several years. And how many CORs get involved at the district and council levels/ I know neither my pack's COR nor my troop's COR attend either of those meetings.

One of the reasons why the Nazis feared Scouting, and placed Lord and Lady BP on the "Operation Sea Lion" list of those to be arrested and terminated if the Nazis were successful in invading the UK. If memory serves, BP personally met with Hitler in 1933 or 34 to save Scouting in Germany. Obviously it was not successful as Hitler turn the various Scout organizations into the Hitler Youth, and mimicked Scouting. I've seen copies of the same knife, one produced before the Scouting ban with Scout logo, and one produced after the ban with the Nazi swastika and eagle. In every country the Germans occupied, Scouting was banned. Lots of interesting tales about Scouts in occupied Europe. I remember reading about some of them in Boys' Life back in the day. In the Netherlands, Scouting's highest heroism award is the Jan van Hoof Cross. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_van_Hoof Edited: BP did NOT meet with Hitler, but sent a letter requesting an audience to discuss the matter.

Sadly this is something I saw still being done in the late 1990s. One of the reasons I quit as a pro, I refused to do it. When I left, my district "lost" a large portion of it's members. Sometimes I wish I would have waited to quit. We got a new SE and he cleaned house.

I wear my international issue only because I have 1 US patch left. It is worn above the right pocket, unless you are wearing a NSJ patch. Then WSJ is on the pocket. EDITED: What the G2AI says found here https://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066_Section1.pdf Jamboree Insignia Jamboree emblems for Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, or Venturers are worn only by registered jamboree participants and staff and are centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip, the Venturing strip, or the Sea Scout strip. No more than two jamboree patches may be worn on the shirt—one current national jamboree patch above the right pocket and one current world jamboree patch on the right pocket. If the wearer has an interpreter strip above the pocket, merely move the jamboree emblem upward sufficiently to accommodate it.

IMHO Current WB is a problem because it is now a management course and not a leadership course. As someone stated the pre-WB21C courses were different than today's course. Back then there were 2 to 3 different WB courses ( Boy Scout, Cub Scout, and briefly an Explorer courses). Not only did you have to complete specific basic training for the course, you also had to have 2 years tenure in the program was for. Only way to waive that was the 18 and 19 year olds who went straight from Scout to Scouter. Now WB is a one size fits all management course. And from everything I hear and read, including the syllabi for the different courses, the new course is a shadow of the original courses. One of the challenges with female Scouters, is that they have no points of reference in boys' development, nor experience in the Boy Scout program. At least with male Scouters no involved as youth, they will have some references to boys's development because they were young once. Also I see the proliferation of rules and regs as a result of women in Scouting. A lot of things Scouts use to be able to do are no more, and it has been since the 1989 decision to allow women as SMs and ASMs. No more pioneering towers, no more water guns, no more using wagons unless 14 ad nauseum. That may not be the case, but isn't it strange that there is a chronological correlation? Then there is the mothering factor. let's face it, women have it. They are biologically born with the instinct to nurture and care. Nothing wrong with that, but it is something they need to learn to overcome. From watching my wife's interaction, it is a long, hard, painfully slow process. But she sees the value of letting the boys be independent, explore, and do things for themselves. Sadly a lot of moms are not like that. And notice the introduction of mandatory training in some councils. We are getting more and more folks with little to no experience in the outdoors coming into the program. In the past, experienced Scouters in the troops worked with the new Scouters to get them up to speed. Now the new parents are overwhelming the experienced ones. And BSA is not helping. There was an effort to put more OUTING in Cub ScOUTING, and in less than 18 months national watered down the new Cub Scout requirements. They also watered down the new outdoor requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class.. Now they are watering down training. Then they introduce STEM Scouts, which is taking resources away from the traditional program.

THEY. STILL. DO. NOT. GET. IT! After the meeting on Saturday where we went over the entire advancement process, i.e. how meetings and activities are not meant to earn awards but work on skills, etc, as well as how the PLC plans the program not the adults, they still don't get it. We had our Christmas party last night, and all the adults ended up together and talking. Some of the discussion was talking about trips done in the past, and how we hope the PLC plans some cool trips this year. Two of the dads started talking about places they've been to on their own, and how they talked with officials at these places so that the Scouts can earn XYZ MBs that weekend. They started going on and on about it. Since it was a Christmas party, I didn't say a word. But man I was tempted to say it's about the knowledge, skills, and abilities, not the badges. SM tactfully stated it's something for the PLC to consider. At one point the topic became a possible AT trip this summer. OK PLC has not planned anything yet for 2018, but there has been enough talk about it that the adults are looking into it to give the Scouts some options: time of year, section, etc. Only thing set is one of the prep trips, the one we had to cancel 2 hours before kick off. And we don't have a date for that yet. Mom pipes in about how that would be great for her Tenderfoot son to do since he needs a 5 mile hike with map and compass to earn Second Class. Now this is the Scout whose Mom a) refuses to let him camp without her, b) has camped with the troop only once, besides summer camp (and on the camp out he snuck into Mom's tent the first nite), and c) has told mom he is not interested in Boy Scouts. Now the Scouter who heads up these has 2 requirements in order for the Scouts to go: #1 Must be First Class or higher and #2 Must go on at least 1 prep trip prior to the AT trek OR been on a previous AT trek. For adults to go on the trek, they must have gone on the prep trips, or a previous, AT trek. He mentioned this to her, and she was questioning this policy since it isn't BSA's but his. He mentioned how it's a safety factor. If a Scout or Scouter cannot pull his share , he jeopardizes the entire crew. Then goes on about how the one time he allowed an exception, for an adult with previous backpacking experience as a youth. However the adults was not ready for the trek, and it caused issues that almost turned into a survival situation. Adult got dehydrated and collapsed. His group of Scouts took care of him until the trek leader could get to him. Thankfully nothing serious, water and rest took care of it. I then mentioned that one troop I know of also puts an age limit on HA trips:13. Basically mimicking the HA bases policy. Hopefully that will lose mom's interest. I know the trek leader doesn't want to put an age on it. The first AT trek he did with the troop, was a trek he did with his then 9 year old son. Son would have been 12 when the first trek was done, and with a 13 year old rule, son would have not went. So dad would not have got the trek going. Why does everything have to be about advancement?

AAAAHHHHHH, the CC is also COR. That changes things a bit. As David CO points out, the COR has the ability to decide who the Scouters in a unit are. Only person who can override the COR is the IH, and I've only seen that happen once. So in theory the CC/COR could fire you for not following his directives. And the CC/COR is doing his job in promoting the CO's troop. To expect anything less, is them not doing their job. Plus the CC/COR wants to keep the troop alive, so they need fresh blood. So it is understandable. The problem I have is not so much forcing the den to look only at one troop, but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TROOP THAT IT IS ABOUT TO DIE? ( caps for emphasis, this is a major concern.) Normally the COR covers all units at a CO: Pack, Troop, Ship, and Crew. If problems arise between troop and pack, he is responsible for working them out. If the pack has concerns about the troop, the COR is suppose to mediate and reconcile them. So why has this not been done until now? I think there is a back story and we are missing it.

One things to remember about @David CO, he is a COR who is actually doing his job. I bet if there are problems between the pack and troop, he's doing his job and getting them ironed out. Sadly most of us are dealing with COs who are paper only. They provide us the minimum, meeting room and storage, and have a hands off approach. I know my pack's CO has no interest in Scouting. We've invited IH, COR, CC, etc to Blue and Golds, Cross Overs, etc and never attended. The troop at the CO scheduled an Eagle COH three months in advance with the church to make sure they could have the facilities, and it was approved. The a week before the Eagle COH, they said the troop need to cancel the COH b/c they needed the facility for something else. Luckily the troop that host the OA, opened up their facilities with open arms

The CC is wrong for all the reasons above. It is the Scout's decision to join the troop of his choice. That said, "Be Prepared" to be called a "traitor," "thief," "underhanded," and a hatred to be established. Even if you try and help the troop out, you will be blamed for their low numbers. We couldn't have joined the troop my pack's CO has because they meet on Tuesdays, which at the time was a very bad night for us. Plus the troop took a 180 degree turn around from Boy Led to Adult led, to the point where PLs and SPL were appointed by the SM. Despite my apprehension, I still wanted my son and his den to visit and camp with that troop. I had to beg the troop to allow the Webelos to camp with them. Only way I got them to let the den camp was when I told them I would ask another troop to camp with. Long story short, camp out was a disaster, and son refused to join them. He and a friend eventually crossed over to the troop we are with. Within 10 months, 2 of his den mates who joined the CO's troop quit and two transferred to my son's troop. I was blamed for stealing his Scouts. That troop did nothing with the pack for 2 years, and they shrank and shrank. They finally started working with the pack, and got 3 Scouts. But I am the reason they are now down to 4 active Scouts.

WOW, If you were not in Tampa, I'd say you were in my troop. The parent who brought up the tent issue has $$$$$. He also "persuaded" the PLC to switch their camp out to a fundraiser. All said and done, since the troop provided 95% of the manpower ( and the 5% are coming to us tonite) , we got a larger share of the profits than we were entitled to by ticket sales. BUT in order to get it, he made made so that the money is limited to what he wants to troop to get: equipment. It's not enough to outfit the entire troop in new tents. He wants to make a donation to get additional tents. What he fails to realize is that if the youth do not have a vested interest in what they get, i.e THEY ARE THE ONES DECIDING WHAT TO GET, they will not take the care it needs to keep it. EXTREMELY TRUE!!!!!! One of the Eagles wants the troop to replicate his troop growing up. I knew his SM, and the SM was a micromanager. Adults interfered alot. And his style is reflective. I'm on the opposote end. Very youth led. SM had high expectations, worked through the PLC, and didn't get invovled too much with the minutia. Outside of PLC duties and SMCs, I can count on one hand the number of times he intervened in something. And I really deserved the chat I got too.

In my experience, it's the Scouts are quicker on the noticing problems and initiating first aid, too. As for tents, personal tents are OK, but not hammocks. Only adults can hammock. Middle son and his buddy are nto happy about that since buddy has been hammocking since Cubs, and he converted my son to the Dark Side." Middle son has only used his hammock 2 times since getting it.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it does indeed help. I am still seeing things on the thread in the lens of this situation. Bear with me.

Yep. First time I saw snow, I was 25. I enjoyed the 3 inched of overnight snow for about 5 minutes. back inside for me.

Isn't that what the SMC is for, to find out what is going on with the Scout? Both Scouts in question have had 2 SMCs to date. That has not been brought to the SM's attention. As for having a conversation about how hovering actually hurts their Scouts, we have had it multiple times.