SSF

You seem to be suggesting that we not have actual requirements for Eagle, but rather to allow SM's and other leaders to make subjective, and perhaps not unbiased, determinations as to which scouts are worth" of being an Eagle Scout. Under the BSA's advancement system, requirements are clearly outlined. The scout sees the requirements, the scout works on meeting the requirements and then the scout achieves and completes the requirements. Of course as we know, in some cases, a scout will successfully complete the established requirements, only to have his SM - and/or someone else - begin to make subjective determinations on the scout and then add additional requirements as a way to justify their own subjective criticisms or judgments against that scout. Is that fair in any way to the scout? If there are disciplinary issues and if the scout is not living by the scout oath and law, then that's another matter, but as long as the scout meets the requirements, and challenges, that have been put before him, then why try to hold them back or deprive them of what they've rightfully earned. Who's interests in those instances are really being served? Certainly not those of the scout.

Krampus, Stosh, Tahawk, Meyerc - many thanks for the words of support and Krampus thank you especially for the retort to Beavah. I also have the dilemma of what to do about my younger son. He has many friends in his current troop. Beavah, do keep up 'da' snarky comments, they speak volumes. To be clear though the people "burning the bridges" and "sinking the ferries" were the SM and the CC...not me, and definitely not my son. Oh...and since you mention my son's ECOH, he's made it clear that he no longer has any interest in having an ECOH. He did when he was younger, as all young scouts do, but right now he just wants to earn his Eagle and then put scouting behind him. Scouting is supposed to be all about the scouts, but sometimes, and too often, it's all about the scouters.

My son and I had a meeting with the SM, CC and Unit Commissioner. That meeting was an absolute travesty and I regret that I even allowed my son to be placed into that kind of situation. The SM and CC bristled with animosity and hostility throughout the meeting and accused my son of "making excuses." The SM said outright that if he wants to make Eagle in the troop, that he’ll “have to put scouting first†ahead of his other extracurriculars. My son and I both cited that he had already completed his more than six months of active participation and that the troop could not retroactively apply a new requirement on active participation to a scout who has already fulfilled that requirement. The SM and CC didn't care and were insistent that since the troop committee approved the new camping requirement that they could apply it. Most surprisingly - the Unit Commissioner acted as an agent on the behalf of the SM and CC and he did not hold them accountable for not in any way to adhering to the GTA. Our hope was to achieve some kind of compromise but even that was not accepted. The meeting became extremely heated and contentious and the SM and CC were just as contentious with my son as they were with me. When my son specified and outlined the GTA standards, the SM and CC both became especially defensive and angry. At one point the SM said - directly to my son - "I don't care if you bring in the President of the United States, the only way you're making Eagle in this troop is if you make ten (additional) nights of camping." The Unit Commissioner said to my son (after he cited the GTA rules) "forget about the rules.†My son and I both got the impression that he was kind and was genuinely trying to help but that he was also deeply misguided. The SM also took no accountability over the fact that he had misled my son over his completion of the one remaining requirement that he must complete to lock up his final Eagle required merit badge. That meeting was by far the lowest moment that i have ever witnessed in scouting, by far. Nothing else even comes close. My son was literally bullied (psychologically and mentally) by his own SM and CC. I could not have been more proud of my son for the way that he stood up for himself, but he was extremely demoralized by this experience. No scout should ever be subjected to this. That same night, I contacted the Council Advancement Chair. He was shocked by what he heard and looped in the District Commissioner and the District Advancement Chair. My son and I then met with the Council Advancement Chair, District Commissioner and the District Advancement Chair the following week. The SM and CC were not involved with this meeting. This meeting was very successful. What was especially nice was that the CAC took time to speak with my son and provide some very meaningful words of encouragement and support after what he had been subjected to by his SM and CC. Both the CAC and DAC affirmed that the UC had been remiss in not calling out the SM and the CC on their flagrant disregard of allowing the them to apply an active participation. The DC is looking into the conduct of the SM and CC and the DAC is working with my son on the process for applying for Eagle under disputed circumstances. While that meeting was successful, it doesn't erase what he had been subjected to the week before. I'm an Eagle myself, but getting my sons involved in scouting was a huge mistake. One that I’ll always regret deeply.

I did try to address this directly with the SM and with the CC and they both dug their feet in deeply and made it clear that they were not going to budge. That's when I decided to take this to Council. Considering the resistance from the SM and CC as well as the time sensitivity, I had to. The consequence of not going to council in this case was too great. Krampus, Fred, Hedgehog, Stosh, Calico, Sentinel and all who have expressed support for my son - and support for open and honest communications and conducting advancements, by the book - thank you, with my greatest sincerity, thank you. My older son is a wonderful young man by all measures. He would make you all very proud. I will definitely let everyone know how this unfolds.

Thanks again everyone. This is very much a case of a troop that wants to run their own program, as opposed to the BSA program, but even regardless of that the SM has acted in an extremely egregious manner. The SM has made comments to me essentially saying that he does not feel that my son is worthy of being an Eagle Scout, that’s what this all comes down to. Thanks Beavah, I hear what you’re saying and I've always let my son fight his own battles in scouts, but this situation is so far off the charts that no scout should have to address something like this on their own. To add a little more context to this, my son completed his project in November. Long story short, he faced a lot of obstacles, challenges and setbacks for his project, but he did not give up, he stayed the course and in the end, his project was a great success and the beneficiary couldn't have been more pleased. As my son was going through the final steps of compiling all of his project numbers and doing the final report, he was consistently asking the SM about what he needed to do next to move things along. At that time and then over the next several months, the SM seemed to be very disinterested in discussing the project with my son, and it seemed to be a very low priority for him. This was painfully apparent to both my son and I. Ultimately my son got his book done and he asked the SM if they could review his book and get it signed. He also asked if he could have his SM conference. The SM said that "signing the book is the last thing we do." My son and I both thought that was a little odd. Did it not make sense to sign the workbook after the project was completed? My son also asked if he could schedule time with the beneficiary to go through the book to request their approval and signature, but the SM said that he should not do that. The SM had previously given my son a rundown of the final things he would need to do towards Eagle, those being to complete the Eagle Application, have his reference letters mailed and write his statement of ambition and complete his merit badge partial. So, over the next few weeks my son did all of that, and using his cards, he included his rank advancement dates and merit badge dates on the application. The SM told my son though that the dates on the Eagle application had to come from Council and that he can't just put them in himself. The SM insists that he has to obtain the dates from Council and that he will do that. The following week my son asks the SM if he had a chance to obtain the dates from Council for the application, the SM says he hasn’t had a chance to, but he will. About three weeks go by, and my son asks, and reminds, the SM each week about the dates for the application. The SM tells my son that he’s been very busy but that he is going to do it. At this stage, my son and I are both extremely frustrated and I myself am trying very hard not to get directly involved. Keep in mind also that throughout this time the project workbook has been fully completed and is ready to be signed, but again, the SM will not sign himself nor will he allow my son to seek the signature of the beneficiary. This nearly brings us right to the present. Earlier this month, my son sent the SM an e-mail asking if he had an idea about when he might be able to get the dates for the application. He also expressed essentially, that he would like to speed up the process and that he would like to see if his SM Conference (where his workbook would supposedly be signed) could be scheduled. The SM replied to my son’s e-mail four days later and he told my son in his very brief e-mail that he would need to complete a double digit number of additional nights of camping this year in order for him to be eligible for Eagle within the troop. That was the first time, since September 2015, that the SM had ever made any mention to my son whatsoever that he needed to complete additional nights of camping. Again, my son had already completed his six months of active participation, long before the new camping-participation-scout spirit requirement was put in place. Yet, the SM and the troop committee are applying this after the fact. I believe that from the SM’s view, my son would have to complete double the camping quota for next year to make up for the nights he missed this year. Even if you were to, hypothetically, overlook the fact that my son has already successfully completed his six months of active participation, and that the troop is essentially adding an additional rank requirement for him to complete Eagle, how and why did the SM wait seven and a half months before telling my son that he needed an additional ten nights of camping. As a final side note, regarding my son’s merit badge partial. He had actually completed the partial in the Spring of 2014. He showed the SM his work and the SM said it was fine and my son believed he had completed the badge. When he didn’t get the badge at the COH, he mentioned to the SM that he had not received and the SM said he would look into it to see what happened, My son never heard anything back and unfortunately he and I both forgot about it as his focus had shifted towards preparing for his Eagle Project. He is now re-doing this requirement with the troop’s MB counselor. I’m not at all in favor of my son having to re-do a requirement, but at this point, and considering the timing this is the fastest option towards getting the blue card signed.

Thank you to everyone for responding, I appreciate all of these answers and information very much. Everything is just as I laid it out, complete transparency. There are no skeletons in the closet.

Thank you again to everyone for providing great insights and advice into my situation with my younger son, from my previous post. Sadly, I guess that it’s true that, when it rains it pours, because my older son is now facing a far more urgent situation with regard to his own advancement towards Eagle. My older son is 17, an honor student and highly involved with sports throughout the year. He has been consistently active as a Boy Scout since crossing over as a Webelo in the 5th grade. He has successfully completed his project and the final write-up in the workbook. He has completed all merit badges, with the exception of one required badge for which he has one remaining partial that he will have completed very soon. My son has been a Life Scout for more than two years and he has been on several camping trips in that time, including one long term camping excursion. He attends troop meetings regularly. He has held two acceptable PORs as a Life Scout and performed both admirably. While he has been on the several camping trips, including the one week long camping excursion, his Scoutmaster feels that he has not been “active enough†and indicated that he needs to complete a complete an impractical and unrealistic additional number of camping trips in order to earn his scout spirit to be eligible for Eagle. Both the scoutmaster and the troop committee chair, have both adamantly refused to sign my son’s completed Eagle project workbook, his Eagle application and the SM has stated that he refuses to grant a SM conference until these additional nights of camping are completed. At this stage of his life, and with the timing involved, it is not realistically possible for him to complete these additional nights of camping. The troop committee imposed new, and more demanding, scout spirit/active participation requirements, however, my son had already completed his camping trips and six months of active participation, many months prior to the new requirements being put in place. My older son has been very proactive in moving the Eagle Application and Workbook process forward and he and I have long suspected that the scoutmaster was intentionally delaying this process. His announcement to my older son just a few days ago that he was adamantly refusing to sign anything or grant a SM conference, marked the first time in the past year that he had made any mention of the additional nights of camping. If I were to share all of the details and specifics around this situation, this post would be the equivalent of a short novel, however, to give you the condensed version, it’s clear from the SM’s comments and the indifferent way in which he’s been working with my son (or rather not working with him) that he is doing his best to see that my son does not earn this rank that he has rightfully completed. I suspect that I know his reasons for this. The SM and the troop committee are very much in cahoots and the majority of the troop committee, or at least it’s loudest members, are all supporting the scoutmaster. I reported this to Council a few days ago and they are now investigating. I also hope to enlist the support of some other parents. There are a very small number who I believe have also had concerns. The majority of parents, however, just seem to do as their told essentially. Any additional advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful. My son is currently Star, so this was to be his BOR for Life. The SM insists that it was the troop committee, and not himself, that denied him the opportunity to have his BOR, however, I suspect that the SM influenced and encouraged that decision. In our troop, the troop committee does actually vote to approve or deny scout spirit for all scouts who are slated for rank advancement (and it sounds like in doing that, that they are not following BSA protocols properly). They have always linked the "scout spirit" requirement to active participation; e.g, anytime we have a service project for our charter org or provide some other level of assistance to our charter org, the "threat" is always made that scouts had better attend IF they want to receive "scout spirit" for their next BOR

I have a question regarding the requirement, essentially required for all rank advancements, which indicates that a scout must demonstrate scout spirit and live by the scout oath and law in his everyday life. My son was recently denied the opportunity to have his BOR because the troop committee had voted against granting him approval for "scout spirit." My son is very well behaved, has no disciplinary issues whatsoever and does live by the scout oath and law, however, the SM cited specifically to my son that he was denied "scout spirit" because (according to the committee) he needed "one additional camping trip." If my son's camping participation was in question, then the scoutmaster should have explained that clearly during the SM conference, rather than leave him with the impression that he would be having his BOR the following week. He takes his BORs very seriously and, all week, had been asking me about what kind of questions to expect. What kind of scoutmaster goes out of his way to set kids up for disappointment? The SM claimed that it was "committee's vote," not his, however. I strongly suspect that the SM supported, encouraged and even guided this "vote." My primary concern is that this troop committee and group of leaders are leveraging "scout spirit" as a subjective way of holding back any scouts who have otherwise appropriately met all requirements as outlined, but whom the SM and leaders, feel may be advancing too quickly. My secondary concern is the fact that the scoutmaster ultimately set my son up for great disappointment. The troop "active participation" requirements have never been clearly outlined. To me, the requirement on scout spirit and living by the scout oath and law seems quite clear, and again, I feel that the SM, troop committee and adult leadership in our troop are abusing this requirement as a subjective 'tool' to hold back scouts who have otherwise rightfully earned their rank.

You came to the realization that "parents suck...?" You may feel a little differently when your son or daughter experiences some kind of issue with a coach, teacher, scout leader, etc.

Actually, my intent was not to say that youth or adults need to compete in sports in order to achieve optimal health. What I meant to indicate is that sports do offer a greater opportunity, than scouts, for youth to develop an exceptional degree of physical fitness and cardiovascular conditioning, which contributes tremendously towards achieving optimal health. One does not need to be a competitive athlete to achieve optimal health. Rather one must commit to leading a healthy lifestyle, i.e. abstinence from tobacco and smoking, minimal (if anything) alcohol use, maintaining a healthy diet and weight and exercising regularly. Granted as well there are certainly a number of unhealthy practices associated with some sports; e.g, tobacco chewing in baseball, steroid use and getting regularly pounded on in boxing, MMA or football all certainly detract from one's overall health. Ultimately though, sports participation does offer youth a tremendous opportunity to improve their level of physical conditioning (improved heart rate/pulse, increased aerobic capacity, strength building and maintenance of a healthy weight).

Rick, I would argue that injuries sustained by scouts on camping trips are just as severe, if not more so, than overuse injuries as well as injuries that they may encounter on the field. Effective cross-training and responsible coaches and parents who do not drive their kids to the point at which they develop overuse injuries is the key to preventing them. All of that said, and the greater issue though is that American youth are facing an epidemic of obesity. The level of physical conditioning, strength development and cardiovascular conditioning, that they gain through organized sports participation, whether participating at a recreational or travel level, is incredibly beneficial and necessary towards achieving optimal health.

Too many posters here seem to be of the mindset that all parents are in some delusional state and view their son's sports participation with rose colored glasses. While that is true for many parents, believe it or not, there are actually scouts who do have real athletic ability, who have proven it and who have the stats and results to back up their performance and ability. And as at least one other poster noted, yes, the Boy Scouts can be just as demanding, if not more so, of scouts when it comes to participation in meetings and camping trips as coaches can be of their athletes attending practices and games. That door swings both ways.

Thanks all. This is good information. The beneficiary agency who initially agreed to support the project, and was open to it, is now reluctant. They've cited timing issues, which I can understand, but they also now seem to not want to be bothered. Scout is a few months shy of 17. He's looking at other project ideas and beneficiaries. The experience of the scout who worked to build the bus shelter and who did not make Eagle is especially disheartening.

Curious as to whether anyone may have had any experiences with an Eagle Project beneficiary backing out of supporting a project, after signing the proposal agreement. If so, how was the situation handled.

I'm also an Eagle and I can relate to what you're going through. From the time my kids were born, it had always been my plan to be involved as an active leader within their troop. When my older son and I were looking at prospective troops my one caveat for joining was that i would be able to become a leader and go on camping trips. I didn't come across any troops that essentially said "sorry, not interested in having you as a leader," but if they had, I would have thanked them for their time and crossed them off our list as a potential troop. I understand though that your options, in terms of other troops in your area, may be limited. You said that the "strong personalities" were making it very hard for you to stay active. Would you be open to expanding on that a bit? What specifically are they doing to make you feel unwelcome? All in all, if this is the troop that your sons want to be part of then I would try to make things work with the other leaders. Granted that's much easier said than done.

Thanks to all. I do sincerely appreciate, all of the comments, feeback and input. Fred, in answer to your question, my older son started as a Webelos II so he has been in scouts (Webelos and Boy Scouts combined) for about six years now.

This is not a question. I'm just venting frustration over something which over my years as a Scout Leader seems to be commonplace across the boys in the BSA as a whole, so call it a rant if you will. In addition to scouting, my sons have always been very actively involved in multiple sports throughout the year. From what I have observed, the kids who are also involved in sports are far more well behaved, considerate and respectful than the Boy Scouts; it's not even a close comparison and I am referring to comparable age groups, 11-18 essentially. Within the leagues that we're involved with there is great emphasis on the coaches and the players treating others with great respect, as adults. Often times the coaches will shake hands with the boys, even as young as 11 and 12, when they arrive for practice and again at the end of practices or games. The ultimate irony to me is that these athletes, very few of whom are scouts (I would presume) have (on the whole) always demonstrated a much greater display of living the Scout Oath and Law then the actual boys who are Boy Scouts. I realize I'm preaching against the choir, but in my experience so many - too many - of these scouts are just complete and total brats...selfish, spoiled and often mean spirited with no sense of self-control or boundaries with regards to proper behavior (cursing and swearing, rampant racial jokes, hitting or grabbing others impulsively, etc.) and these are often high ranking scouts! Unfortunately during BORs there is rarely any accountability for their conduct outside of the BOR room. They answer the questions as they know they should and then get a rubber stamp of approval. Granted my perceptions are largely colored by my experience within our troop but during summer camp and other district wide Camporees, Klondike, I have observed this to be common place across too many boys. I am an Eagle myself and got my kids involved in scouts so that they too could have the same positive experience that I had, however, in hindsight if I knew six years ago what I know now...I would never have gotten my kids involved with the BSA; and if asked the question, I would be very hard pressed to actually recommend the BSA to any boy or family who was looking for an experience that would benefit him and help him to build character. I do know that there are many scouts who do exemplify the Scout Oath and Law and who are genuinely exceptional individuals, however, they tend to be the exception rather than the rule; and that shouldn't be the case. Thanks for listening.

Stout, what were your times? Were you All State? Did you go to the Meet of Champions? Did you swim high school only, or were you on a USS club team? Just curious...

It's 2014, not 1974. Smoking and tobacco use has been taboo for a LONG time...that's not a recent change. Nonetheless, yes, a lot of people still smoke...perhaps the BSA is the new last bastion for smokers. The BSA should get rid of the BS around its smoking policy. Ban it for leaders when in uniform, ban it altogether on scout campgrounds and ban it during any and all scout sanctioned camping trips and functions. Yes, smoking leaders would be up in arms, but at least the scouts and those of us who don't want to choke on someone else's bad habit could breathe easy. The fact is that when the SM is proudly smoking away in front of his scouts he's subjecting them to secondhand smoke, which is a Class A carcinogen as affirmed by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That is an established fact. Like so many smokers, he seems completely oblivious to the impact of his smoking on those around him. The CC, COR and all adult leaders and the committee need to make it clear that smoking in front of the scouts not only sets an extremely bad example but is also hazardous to their health. If the SM wants to destroy his own health, that;s his choice, but he has no right to endanger the scouts. The t-shirts were inappropriate.

Thank you everyone. All of this information is very helpful.

Just looking for some comparisons. Our troop charges $75 per year per scout plus $10 per scout per month for dues. This is not including food for camping trips ($15 per scout), summer camp or other special trips or outings. The $75 registration rate is not really an issue, but the $10 per month seems a bit much and I can't fathom how they justify these costs. Our troop is largely comprised of working class families and we're not an affluent community by any means. Again, just looking for some comparisons.