SSF

The Boy Scouts of America are becoming "family friendly" (a huge mistake) and the troop in question is being overrun by parents who don't value the patrol method. What is the solution?

I don't know why so many Boy Scout leaders keep insisting that boys just want to have "fun." There are scouts who actually do want to work towards advancement and no, that doesn't always meant that their mom or dad are ardently pushing them from behind the scenes.

Those guys look like Boy Scouts for sure Someone is mocking Cooking merit badge...oh no!!!!

Let's deal with the facts as we have them and avoid hypotheticals. In this particular case, there were three separate rooms available. One for the adults and two for the scouts. The adults collectively agreed that they would stay in one room and the scouts would be divided in the two others. The scouter in question - regardless of his motive or intention - chose to remove himself from the adults room to go and sleep in one of the other room with the scouts at a very late hour and without informing any of the other adults that he was planning to do this. That's troubling to me. Whether wilful or not, this is a violation of YP. Ignorance of the law (or YP rules in this case) is, and has never been an excuse for violation of the law/rules. He violated YP rules and that needs to be reported to both the council and to the CO so that they can evaluate and make a determination as to what action may be necessary. For all we know, this may not be the first time that this scouter has done this, so it very much needs to be documented with the council and the CO. This scouter chose to go into the scouts sleeping area when it had been clearly and rightfully established that the adults would sleep in their own separate room. The snoring excuse hold absolutely zero credibility or validity. Also,why did he not alert one or more of the other adults to the fact that he would be going into the other room? The fact that adults were sleeping and he may not have wanted to wake anyone up so as not to disturb them also holds no credibility. If he was having trouble for whatever reason that night he should have spoken to the other adults.

Not sure why you are even asking this question. There was a clear violation here and it should be reported. Council and perhaps the COR can make the final determination on whether or not there was a violation, but as a responsible scouter you need to report this. Snoring...give me a break.

But what was Rotten Tomatoes audience score...? You didn't mention that. Did the audience also rate it at 90%? No, the audience score is an abysmal 50%...lower than any of the prequels; yeah, I think the audience did hate this movie. Let's also look at the numbers of the sample sizes of the critics vs. audience ratings. We have 318 critics who collectively loved the movie and gave it that average of 90%, but on the flip side we have nearly 170,000 audience ratings from people who thought the movie sucked. If you want to delude yourselves into believing that the mass audiences loved the Last Jedi, then that's up to you, but you'd be wrong. The approval rating on girls in the Boy Scouts is much harder to come by, but again, let's be truly honest...this has not been well received by the majority of scouts and scouters, or Americans. It was forced through by Surbaugh just like Kathleen Kennedy forced her belief of "strong women and incompetent men" into the Last Jedi. If you favor girls in the Boy Scouts, then congrats on your victory. if you like the new feminist direction of Star Wars, and that's your cup of tea, then congrats there as well. Again, I've said my peace...that's it for me on this topic.

Yeah, I remember that poll on this site...again though, let's be honest, the idea of girls in the Boy Scouts has not been well received. For my one vote, I'm an Eagle and I think girls in Boy Scouts is absurd. Complacency is a big problem, IMHO, among scouters in the BSA. All too often, they're willing to just look the other way or do nothing. When people sit by and let the special interest proponents do whatever they want, we end up with girls in the Boy Scouts...

Fair enough about wanting to see evidence. Let's be realistic and honest though...Americans are not onboard and do not fully support the idea of girls joining the Boy Scouts. This was very much pushed through by Surbaugh with the intent of getting it done quickly and quietly. Practically overnight, the BSA went from "we're just considering this" to "welcome girls!" I have no doubt that a lot of people are afraid to share their true feelings for fear of being labeled a misogynist or being ostracized in some way. The BSA, and Boy Scout leaders in particular, have a long bad history of choosing to look the other way when something isn't right. Last Jedi has been a huge box office success, as I noted in my original post. but that does not make it a good movie . Profitable yes, good no. People saw this based on hype and the Star Wars brand. The story itself was poorly written, too many sublots, too many holes...sorry, it was a badly written movie with too much ideological preaching about the glory and brilliance of women. Again, if you liked the movie, that's great but you're in the minority. Check out Rotten Tomatoes, IMDd, Fandangp, Youtube...fans are seething over this movie. Come on...let's not pretend that this movie was well received. Yeah, I forgot about the new Islamic Ms. Marvel. Carol Danvers was the original Ms. Marvel and they made her into the new Captain Marvel. Mar-Vell was the original Captain Marvel, back in the day. They killed him off and apparently have no plans of ever bringing him back, I'm presuming. So we now have the new female Captain Marvel, in place of the original male Captain Marvel.

I originally posted this to highlight the parallel between the backlash against the overt feminism and social justice propaganda in the Last Jedi to the backlash that the BSA has faced over opening its doors to girls. In both cases, a small minority of individuals in power positions – who held divergent and extreme views, not shared by the vast majority of their respective constituents – managed to successfully force their views and agenda on their constituents; despite the fact that the vast majorities were strongly opposed to such. Yes, there are those who support girls being able to join the Boy Scouts and there are those who feel that the Last Jedi was a good movie. However, the reality is that the vast majority of scouts and scouters do not believe that girls should be able to join the Boy Scouts and the vast majority of Star Wars fans and movie goers did not at all like the Last Jedi and strongly objected to the overt feminism and social justice themes. The greater issue though is not the movie itself and how bad it was, or whether or not I personally liked it or not, but the fact that we live in a day and age in which the views and beliefs of the majority can be so quickly and easily destroyed by a small but powerful groups of individuals who appear to be very intent on imposing their will or agenda on the greater organization or franchise as a whole. Some people may see all of this as “progress.” Others, myself included, see it as nothing more than overt political correctness. What is the answer to all of this…? I don’t know, but as others have noted, I am planning to vote with my feet and my wallet. Also, just to confirm, Ms. Marvel is no more. She’s now the new “Captain Marvel,” and a much different character, than when she was Ms. Marvel.

I'm glad you and your son liked the movie. A lot of people who saw it were pretty let down by it though, but if what this movies conveyed is your thing, then I'm glad it worked for you.

True, it's an old gag about "smart women and dim witted men" in comedies (as well as a lot of commercials) but I think we can agree that Star Wars isn't a tongue in cheek or low brow comedy. Sorry, the banter between Leia and Han in the original trilogy hardly constitutes a feminist agenda in the movie. Lucas never made Han seem like an incompetent moron while Leia was perfect and always had the solution for everything. That's just not an accurate comparison at all. When SW, ESB and ROTJ came out, there was no mass backlash against the movie because of subvert themes of feminism or any other social/political agendas...because there were none. Can the same be said of the Last Jedi...? Obviously, I have a very different take on the portrayal of the Last Jedi characters than you do though, as do many others. I'm genuinely glad you liked the movie though. If you liked it, then continue to support it and go see the sequel. A lot of people, myself included, have already written that off and washed our hands of Star Wars.

I don't use the the word propaganda lightly, but this extreme force feeding of feminism and anti-male, anti-capitalism, anti-religion, social justice, was most definitely propaganda and social engineering, aka indoctrination. Whether you loved or hated this movie, you have to appreciate that scores of longtime Star Wars fans were nothing short of disgusted by this movie. Yes, lots of movies have a message, and that's all fine and good, as long as that message is in-line with the story arc, but there was no basis for any of the crap that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson insisted on shoving down the throats of audiences for the Last Jedi. I have no issues with strong female characters. Princess Leia, in the original trilogy, was most definitely a strong female character. Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games is also another great example of a strong female character. Neither of those characters, or their movies, though had the underlying theme of "women rule and men drool." Leia was smart and tough in the original trilogy and she was never made to look weak or incapable, but just about every single man in the Last Jedi was made out to be incompetent (Poe Damron), stupid (Finn), lazy and complacent (Luke) or just evil (Kylo). There was not one single redeeming male in this movie. The Last Jedi had a very clear connotation that women are superior to men - not equal - superior. Here's an article on "The Women Who Run (More Accurately Ruin) Star Wars." There was most definitely an agenda at play in the Last Jedi... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html To anyone who enjoyed this movie, I say that I'm glad you enjoyed it, but bear in mind that this movie also successfully alienated and outraged legions of longtime Star Wars fans who have basically written off the entire franchise (myself included) because of the embedded messaging of this movie. Again, back to my original point...here we are in 2018 and the "Boy" Scouts of America is now open to girls despite a vast majority of scouts and scouters who are opposed to that...

This wasn't a movie. This was propaganda masquerading itself as family entertainment. This is how real social engineering occurs.

Yes, the anti-religion propaganda was another issue with this movie

I actually haven't seen the movie. For a lot of reasons, I was disappointed with The Force Awakens and from what I was hearing about the The Last Jedi (i.e. the amped up feminism, the social justice themes and aspects of the story that seem to be aimed at destroying the original Star Wars legacy) I just couldn't support the movie, which is very sad to me as this was Carrie Fisher's final film and it also represented Mark Hamill's real return to the screen as Luke Skywalker; both of which I definitely would have ideally wanted to support fully. ****SPOILER**** From what I have heard though, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill, and their characters, were badly disrespected by the filmmakers of this movie. If either of my sons ask me to go see it, then I'll take them to see it...but I'm really hoping they won't ask

I can't help but draw a parallel to the recent backlash from many longtime Star Wars fans against the newest Star Wars movie just released, The Last Jed,i to some of the BSA's more recent decisions regarding its membership and leadership policies. In the case of both Star Wars and the Boy Scouts of America, for multiple decades, there has been a long standing franchise/organization which each had a deep rooted core audience which each embraced the fundamental philosophies, principles, legacy and history of the franchise/organization. Jump to 2017 though and in the case of both the Star Wars franchise and the Boy Scouts of America, the management regimes which oversee each made sweeping changes - which can certainly be called controversial - and ultimately created great divide among their respective consituencies; i.e. Star Wars fans and scouting supporters. To summarize the Star Wars issue, for those unfamiliar, there's been an extreme backlash from a large number of fans and movie goers who are nothing short of disgusted with the movie's story, direction, tone and political and social innuendos made in the movie; i.e. women are great at everything, men are less capable and need female leadership, capitalism is bad, white men and wealthy people are evil. Some who have seen the movie though, claim to love it and say it's the greatest Star Wars movie ever. This is just my quick account of the Star Wars backlash though. Please do your own research to make your own determinations... Regardless, of the backlash by a lot of fans, the movie has made a ton of money; albeit some say the initial box office numbers were based solely on hype and that now that word has gotten out, that box office numbers will soon take a nose dive. One final note, Kathleen Kennedy, the new head of Lucasfilms (now owned by Disney) which controls everything related to Star Wars (movies, TV shows, books, comics, etc.) has made numerous public statements highlighting her advocacy of having this new generation of Star Wars stories revolve around female characters. Again, this is just my quick account. Please do your own research to make your own determinations. Like Mike Surbaugh, Kathleen Kennedy is also facing extreme criticism. Whether you love or hate the Last Jedi and Kathleen Kennedy's new direction for the franchise and whether you love or hate the BSA's recent decisions on membership and leadership, and Mike Surbaugh's glowing insistence on its necessity, it goes without saying that the changes made to each, have not been well received by a large number of Star Wars fans and BSA supporters. I just thought this was an interesting parallel.

The BSA and Surbaugh opened the door to this as soon as they opened the door to girls joining Boy Scouts...it's like that one loose thread on a piece cloth, just waiting to be pulled on...inevitably the whole cloth will unravel

This is all a game for those old school scouters Wisconsin. They relish in patting themselves on the back for all that they do for their unit while simultaneously complaining about how clueless and ungrateful the parents are and how those parents never really volunteer to help. However, the caveat to that is that those leaders don't genuinely and sincerely invite the new parents to help and that's why so many new parents don't get more actively involved. Deep down I believe the old school scouters really love things just the way they are...they like to be in control, they like to be the center of attention at committee meetings and they like to have their egos stroked. There are a lot of good scouters out there, but there are also far too many bad ones, who are in this for all the wrong reasons.

I had a good experience as a scout and a lot of fond memories of my time as a scout and earning Eagle. I wanted my sons to have the same experience and I wanted to be actively involved to give back to the program. In hindsight, if I knew then what I know now, when I initially encouraged my older son to join the Cub Scouts, I would never have allowed he or my younger son to ever get involved with the Boy Scouts of America.

I guess I'm going to be the odd man out on this, since I have a bit of a different take. It does sound as though this mother has been a real pain for a long time and some steps have been taken to encourage her to amend her difficult ways. The Pack could reasonably make the case that this mother made her own bed and now she has to lie in it; i.e. that she should be kicked out and banned from all Pack functions. Barring any kind of issues of youth protection or safety, the act of removing a parent or a leader is an extreme one and should only be taken as an absolute last resort after all other methods or efforts to correct the problem at hand have been exhausted. Regarding the difficult mother, I would give her one final opportunity to allow her to correct her ways before removing her. At least that way, the Pack can assuredly say that it gave the mother every possible opportunity to amend her conduct before going to the extreme step of banning her altogether. Send her a letter outlining the problems her behavior has caused and outline in no uncertain terms that any additional outbursts, poor behavior or false claims will result in her being banned. You could also add that perhaps the next six months will probationary for her. When faced with the consequence of being banned from the Pack, hopefully, she will do what's in the best interest of her son;. i.e. she'll stop causing trouble. Alternatively, perhaps she will decide to take him out of the Pack herself, but even if that's the case, then the Pack still took the high road in allowing her this final opportunity to correct her mistakes. You yourself say that the scout in question is a good kid. Even if you're not willing to give the mother one last chance, do allow that opportunity for the scout. In the event that the mother is removed though, it should be made clear that the scout is welcome to continue with the Pack. He's done nothing wrong and should not be penalized. It's not for the Pack to determine how far is too far for the family to drive to get him to and from meetings. That would be their decision to make, if it comes to it; not the Pack's decision.

Regarding the scout in question, are you saying that you actively plan to remove the scout from the Pack? Or are you presuming that when the mother is removed/banned that she will pull her son out of the Pack? The mother claiming that she is the Pack Treasurer is certainly a problem, if that's in fact the case. Did she ever previously occupy that role and if so, did you inform her that she was being removed from that position and/or that someone else would be taking over that role? Beyond the Treasurer's issue, can you provide some specifics or details on the concerns that this mother has? You mentioned the Pack's bylaws, code of conduct, meeting locations and times etc. but can you be a little more specific? Is her son being bullied? Are leaders trying to add rank requirements? Do the Pack's bylaws align to BSA standards and guidelines? Hypothetically speaking, if this other mother in question were to come to this message board, what would her account of this situation be? Finally, has any member of the committee or the charter organization spoken with this mother, sincerely, and made this mother aware of the concerns of the committee and how her conduct or concerns are affecting the Pack Committee? I think it's only fair and reasonable that this mother be given the opportunity to amend her conduct before she and her son are shown the door.

No judgement intended whatsoever and I readily admit that there are certainly parents out there who do try to steamroll through everything and do cross the line between supporting their sons and doing the work for them.

From my reading of what you've shared, a 17 year old scout wants to obtain Eagle. He is working towards that goal and you and the troop committee have put a plan in place as to what level of participation he must maintain to achieve that. The father appears to be very concerned about whether or not his son will achieve the rank. As the clock is ticking towards his 18th birthday, I can certainly appreciate his concern. You state that you don't like the father and you expect that soon you and he will "face off soon." Is it possible that some of this animosity towards the father is being directed at the scout and his efforts towards earning Eagle.

I've seen tons of posts on this board about the bane of "helicopter parents" and I've always thought that the level of animosity directed at this parents is a bit overkill. If I were an outsider (unfamiliar with the BSA) looking in at this, my first reaction would be "why are boy scout leaders so intent on separating boys from their parents and why are they so secretive and defensive?" I also realize that while the phenomenon of "helicopter parents" is not solely unique to scouting. Scout leaders seem to have the most animosity and anger over the topic of involved parents. When I read between the lines of many of these posts on how awful helicopter parents are, the overarching theme, and wish, of many scouters appears to be that parents should just stay out of scouting altogether...they should just pay their sons dues and registration fees, get them to the meetings and camp outs but otherwise never ask questions and never question the decisions of the scout leaders. This extremely rigid, "back off" approach will only lead to contention between scout leaders and parents. Let's be honest. Not every scoutmaster and scout leader is a saint. To say that favoritism and preferential treatment from scout leaders, simply doesn't exist at all in any troops, would be wishful thinking. There are times when parents have every right to be concerned and to ask questions about their sons' participation in scouting. I think it's also important to draw the distinction between concerned parents and helicopter parents. I would wager, and have no doubt that there are, overzealous scouters who automatically label any parent who may have any kind of dissenting view or disagreement over something as a meddlesome "helicopter parent." Ultimately I think it's very important to consider where parents are coming from. Fostering communication and educating parents in a sincere - not backhanded way - of how the BSA program works and showing that you genuinely welcome their input and do want to hear about their concerns will go a long way towards building trust.

The OP is looking for solutions to the dilemma that her son is in, not to be lectured on how her son should have been more detailed and thorough in outlining the scope of work in his proposal. I'm sure the scout himself regrets not being more detailed in his proposal and in his communications with the beneficiary. The vast majority of project beneficiaries are highly supportive. For whatever reason, this beneficiary is not. Either that or there's been some gross misunderstanding. Maybe they saw this as an opportunity to receive free labor and,nothing more and are now essentially holding the project "hostage" by refusing to sign off on it. As others have suggested, being diplomatic is the key to resolving this. Find out what their concerns and grievances are, but by the same token, be clear and be firm with them in noting that this is a community service project being led by a youth with the support of volunteers.