SSF

I appreciate where you're coming from but I do believe that scout parents can be just as aggressive and demanding - if not more so - than any sports parents ever could. In my own experience, as an Eagle Scout and as a parent of two Eagle Scouts who are both athletes, I have experienced some minor 'politics' in terms of their competing in sports, but that pales in comparison to the level of pettiness and egotism that I have seen displayed first hand by multiple scout leaders. I've also heard too many similar accounts from other scout parents, as well as posts on this board, over how some troops choose to operate by adding requirements or using their own subjective, or judgmental, biases to deny rank advancement. I can only go by my own personal experience and I've only seen true pettiness and egotism in scouts, not in sports.

I'd beg to differ here. Scouts does very much mandate participation. All troops do require a minimal level of participation to demonstrate that they are "active." "Active participation" is loosely defined by the BSA intentionally so that units can determine what level of participation is required. Troops vary greatly in this. Some are very strict and demanding of meeting attendance and camping participation, whereas others are more lax, but scouts who fall short of their troop's participation standards do not get the opportunity to advance, just like an athlete who does not attend practice regularly will not have the opportunity to play.

This is a very anti-sports article and many of the criticisms can also be applied to scout parents as easily as they could to sports parents

So you feel there should be separate standards of justice?

Our unit and the others in my area that I'm familiar with just aren't as active as others I guess...I'm still amazed by the unit that holds an outdoor aquatics event in March You'll have to add your own scouts to the throw-down as well...I'd just hope that we could have fair and unbiased judging

I've never heard of the "rule of law" being applied to BSA advancement. You sound like a criminal defense attorney, defending a guilty client

So, you're doing everything possible to ensure that these girls advance quickly. Are the girls being tested? Are they actually learning the skills?

That's an incredibly packed schedule. Your son's unit seems to be the exception. Back to back day hikes in addition to camping trips. Definitely a very full calendar. You listed the district's aquatics day as an outdoor activity in March though...did you list that as an outdoor activity by mistake? I'm presuming that was done at an indoor pool.

Yes, it's possible, but IMHO, this would be an extremely ambitious for most scouts, and unless this girl is solely involved in scouting without any other extracurriculars, part time job, etc. then that would also pose some challenges to actually completing these without a tail wind in her favor.

Who is the "their" that you're referring to? BSA or people opposed to girls in Boy Scouts. Yes, this girl supposedly completed these requirements in very quick time, as you admit. Does it not strike you as odd that girls are racing towards advancement so rapidly? Correct we have no evidence that she did not complete the requirements properly. We also have no evidence to indicate that she actually did. All of this stems from the girl posting on social media. If I were a gambler, I'd wager that some shortcuts were taken.

I can't fathom how any unit could hold ten events, six of which must be outdoor events or camping trips, within a three months span. What unit is that active...??? I don't see how anyone could have realistically met that particular requirement between 2/1 and 5/04. It is possible for her to have achieved this under advancement guidelines, but realistically, the probability of any scout actually doing this is extremely low. If this girl actually did what she has claimed, I have no doubt that requirements were either overlooked, held to a ridiculously low standard, or her leaders may have allowed her to double-dip, or even triple-dip.

Nicely put qwazse, I really like this response!

You are clearly troubled by any criticism against girls in the BSA. I'm not sure why you keep responding, and with the same copied and pasted response no less. In my original post that got removed, I called out the absurdity that was highlighted in the shameful and biased, "Girl Power" 'reporting' from the article that cocomax shared. If you put something out there that others find objectionable, then someone is likely to let you know that. And, just for the record, this is not a blog. It's a forum. That's why it's called "Scouter Forum."

I see that this message board continues to live in a bubble of 'we think.' Only the views of the elites are allowed and anyone who disagrees is silenced. So much for the freedom to disagree on what is supposed to be an open forum. Cburkhardt I hope that your efforts to feminize the BSA fail, but as I said in my post that was removed, this war has already been lost. The real BSA is dead. Congratulations to you on your victory in contributing to that.

I reacted too hastily in my previous response. (Bad SSF, bad!) I do see that you condemn the scoring used and I presume that's where the upvotes come from. I agree that scouts and units should vote with their feet and avoid this camporee if biased judging of any form is going to be taking place.

I don't know if I'm more surprised by this comment you made or the fact that others actually support your position on this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by either. You've said that you believe its acceptable for judges to award competitors and determine order of finish (1st, 2nd, 3rd place etc.) irregardless of a patrol's actual performance...? If the rules for this camporee did clearly state that's how judging was going to be conducted then you are technically correct and the girls did not cheat and the adults running the event were within their right to just give out awards to whoever they wanted to for no real valid reasons at all, but if that is the case then this camporee was a complete sham. I feel sorry for the boys, leaders and units that were duped by the organizers and planners of this "competition" who probably had a rightful expectation that all competitors would be judged fairly, evenly and without bias. But, you believe that biases whether, conscious or unconscious, are acceptable...okay, got it. I will very much keep that in mind when a girl boy scout contacts me to work on a merit badge.

Keep talking like that and you'll be invited to be a judge at this camporee next year

The OP and planner of the camporee said the girls took home the top troop in the district award, which to me sounds like they won the camporee. It's a bit far fetched to say that the scout skills of girls who may have learned a few scout skills here or there, on the occasional sporadic basis from their brothers, is equivalent to the same focused and immersive instruction that the scouts themselves had been receiving. Again, the probability of inexperienced brand new scouts beating far more experienced scouts, with previous competition experience under their belts, is unlikely...possible yes, but probable...no.

Fred, it is true that a brand new patrol of new scouts (all Scout or Tenderfoot presumably) could potentially win a camporee over vastly more experienced scouts (1C, Star, Life, Eagle) who have competed previously in multiple camporees and klondikes, but the odds and probability of them actually doing that without some outside assistance is relatively slim. I myself have personally witnessed biased judging at camporees, so I know first hand that it exists and I could easily foresee pro-girl judges, being more lenient and generous in their scoring of the girl patrols. The fact that the planner of this camporee has also expressed great glee in the girl's victory, raises questions as to whether or not the judging was truly objective and unbiased. I would wager that there was a pre-conceived plan to ensure that all of the girl patrols had a very positive experience at this camporee. The BSA could not really afford to have brand new girl units go to a competition, get beaten, get discouraged and decide that they wanted to quit...that would not fit the narrative that the BSA is trying to sell about girls in the boy scouts.

So a group of girls who are all brand new to the BSA outperformed boys, many of whom presume, have been in scouts for a number of years, but the brand new girls still outperformed the more experienced boys for the top district award...interesting. I'm presuming that there was a judges meeting before the competition. Did you, as planner inform the judges beforehand that you wanted to ensure that the girls would not be judged unfairly? We have to bear in mind that judging for many camporee or klondike events is heavily subjective. Going a step further biased judging is also not uncommon. My troop had for many years attended a camporee that every year was won by a different patrol but always from the host troop; every single year. For our troop this camporee was not really about winning but more so about the experience. We always took it with a grain of salt that we knew in advance who was going to win and figured that most of the other troops had a similar approach and mindset to it.

Homesickness at summer camp for most scouts wears off by the second or third day. Homesickness also lessens once they become occupied with their activities and the boys begin to bond and mesh as a group. IMHO, that's really the greatest thing about summer camp. No other time of the year (except for possibly High Adventure outings) allows for that same level of building camaraderie and brotherhood. Again, the vast majority of kids who do experience homesickness do adjust in the first few days, and then do just fine, but there are more extreme cases. A few years ago, there was a second year scout in our troop who went as far as to actually stop eating, or eat very little, in order to make himself sick with the hope that his parents would be forced to come and get him. I don't remember if he had gone to summer camp for his first year or not. He actually did make it through the full week of camp but he was completely miserable the whole time and sadly never really adjusted. Suffice it to say, he quit scouts. If you go with your son this year, will he feel more comfortable about going solo next year? Or will your being there strengthen his dependence on you being present next summer also? I'd recommend having him not attend summer camp this year. Let him get to know the scouts and other leaders more over the year and hopefully he will be ready to go next year. When he sees that the other boys who did go have a leg up on advancement, that may also motivate him to attend next year.

And you're saying her leaving would be a bad thing...?

Would you argue that chartered organizations that choose not to support girl packs or troops are also guilty of discrimination? Would you argue that the BSA "discriminated" against girls for the first 100 plus years of its existence? Was that also inappropriate? Would you accuse Baden Powell of being a misogynist for not allowing girls to join?

You have to admit that' your own anecdotal viewing of some hiking show you saw, doesn't exactly constitute strong data. The real data I am actually very interested in seeing, is on financial contributions, or other forms of support, from organizations like the National Organization of Women (NOW), that had previously attacked the BSA for previously excluding girls. Surely they must love the new Scouts BSA and are willing and eager to contribute to and support the BSA's new found commitment to girls I don't know what NOW has or hasn't done for Scout Me In...and I could very well be wrong, but my hunch is that they've done absolutely nothing. I stand by my original prediction though that I don't think there are enough girls and female leaders, to make girls in the boy scouts viable in the long run.

And perhaps it was ado about something. I'm sure there are girls who genuinely want to do boy scout oriented activities but they are more the exception than the norm. I'm sure there are also a lot of other girls joining right now because of the hype and hoopla of girls in the boy scouts, and perhaps because they or their parents want to virtue signal in some way...after their first real camping trip, those girls in the latter, and their moms, though may decide that boy scouts really isn't quite their cup of tea... I don't think the numbers will be there in the long term to make Scout Me In viable...just my prediction