DuctTape

GM, et al I can appreciate the needs for some accommodations. I don't think anyone is advocating for the complete removal of all scouting situations where cars, electricity, indoor plumbing, etc... are available. I can only speak for myself, my issue is the apparent lack of any of the wilderness type opportunities for the boys. This needs not be an either/or proposition. Instead I advocate for both. Yes, I lean more towards the wilderness mountain man/boy type, and I press for it. But that is only because I see the program is so far out of balance and little/no opportunities exist for the boys to experience the out of doors away from all of the comforts of home or the trailer. The program itself seems to shun it as well. I am all for a continuum of scouting adventures, but that means that some activities won't be available nor desirable to all scouts or scouters. I think that is what Stosh was alluding to in his LCD comment and i agree with it. A wilderness trail ceases to be a wilderness trail when it becomes a paved road, thus paving the trail doesn't give people access to the trail it eliminates it for all.

It is ironic so many council are finding the need to shut down camps due to financial reasons when the most expensive part of a camp is the infrastructure. eliminate the dining hall and the extra resort style accomodations and activity areas and make the camp a "high adventure" wilderness type area. I wonder if there is any council in the US which operates a camp as a "wilderness area" with designated campsites only accessible by foot and/or canoe. Zero amenities except a fire ring and a thunderbox at the well dispersed campsites. The only expensive infrastructure would be a "ranger cabin" at the parking area for check-in, etc...A camp like this would encourage the patrol method as the campsites would be small and unable to accommodate in excess of 10 people. I know some camps in NY use portions of their property for this type of activity, but they seem to be used less and less as the adults do not want to venture too far away from the mess hall and their evening cracker barrels with other adults. Just thinking out loud here.

A also do not think it is the panacea either. I don't think there is one. However of all the things you listed, how many of them are boy-led issues. Is the group of boys who happen to be scouts going to go decorate the headstones without the push and prompt by an adult with an agenda? If the problem is the "brand", is that the boys issue or the adults worried about the BSA from a business perspective? Publicizing the actions of boys' good turns or using them as fronts for any agenda are adult decisions for the purpose of the "organization", not for the boys in it.

The value scouting brings to the table hasn't changed. A boys sense of adventure, playing in the woods, exploring, building "forts", being with buddies, cooking hotdogs over an open fire they built, etc... The adults are getting in the way. I agree the BSA needs to market itself better. Not by trying to be something which it is not, but by going back to what it was. The BSA isn't leadership development, it is not character development, it isn't religious training, it is embracing the boys sense of adventure and letting the boys do those things boys like to do in the out of doors.

Scoutcraft and Woodcraft were the standard operating procedure for the trips. Scout skills weren't just demonstration activities to watch while camping next to the troop trailer with all the stuff from home, The scout skills which are delineated in the advancement requirements were actually used on a regular basis. Use lashings to make a useful camp gadget wasn't a one-and-done requirement. It was done on every trip because it was truly a useful gadget and the scout only needed to carry a small amount of twine/rope. Once the boys start camping away from the cars and carrying less stuff, they begin to see the need for the woodcraft skills. Another eg: no more two burner coleman stoves, now they learn to cook on an open fire. (Unfortunately some places this cannot be done due to regulations/fire bans.) The old timers didn't carry a lot of weight even with the canvas and wooden pack boards, they carried little else besides their basic gear. I think I carried more weight in the 70s and 80's with the lighter nylons because we thought we needed the full sized tents and too much other stuff.

The policy is fine. It just needs to be followed. If National HQ is worried about their "brand", they would follow their own policies which mitigate loss of quality. Instead, while they promote excellence in words, actions show they care more about volume of awards and not quality. It is the Walmart philosophy of business. It is a quality vs quantity. HQ needs to ask themselves whether they want the Eagles Scout and the BSA brand to be the Walmart or Saks. I know some will say it is important to encourage as many boys as possible to participate. I agree, but advancement and awards should be based on standards. Participation in scouting does not require one to earn MBs and handing them out as parting gifts for attending summer camp or universities devalues the brand. strange how HQ is so caught up with the religious aspect of scouting and declarations of other "values", yet consistently allows for scouts to advance by promoting the ignoring of the actual requirements (via willful non-enforcement of policy). A Scout is Trustworthy, and all adults who deal in this type of "advancement" are not being scout-like IMO.

Keep a journal for each boy. All the funny stories and memories will be useful when writing a speech to give at say his Eagle COH.

I concur with KDD. I will also add to try to not make it into a "class". Scouting isn't school.

While I can appreciate the sentiments about wanting the boys to have fun at summer camp and learn with/from their peers without the judgy adults around as well as avoid the school like classes, this is different from merit badges. The boys can and should do all of those things, however these activities are not equivalent to calling up,learning from, and being tested by an adult merit badge instructor. By all means use summer camp as a place for boys to have fun and learn from each other in a non-school setting. when they return they can call up a merit badge counselor (adult) and proceed to actually earn the merit badge. I still do not know how councils and camps get away with having boys sign merit badge cards, or the adults signing them after abdicating their responsibility to a boy. The ways camps run merit badges is one of the most untrustworthy things I have witnessed as a scouter. I feel for the boys who miss out on a quality program.

I completely disagree. I find camps are the easiest places to get merit badges, but not one of the better places to earn them. There are exceptions of course. Counselors are not supposed to "let some requirements slide". Counselors that do this should be removed. One may not add nor subtract... If the requirement was to "perform", or "demonstrate" etc... listening to someone describe it is not the same. Not only does this mean the scout did not earn the badge, but they were denied the opportunity to explore and learn. Sorry for being so blunt, but it is these types of counselors who ruin the program for the boys by denying them the real program.

I agree with much which has been said. In my mind I sum up the patrol method as "the troop is a collection of patrols" as opposed to "the troop is broken down into patrols".

The Central Park penguins are mentioned here as are other examples: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

IMO It is too bad the BSA (National, Council, district, CO, scouts,and scouters, etc...) don't simply accept "Faith in Action" as opposed to "Declaration of Faith". Actions vs words. All faiths have principles and tenets by which one is to live, There are similarities among many and certainly differences. There is no need to discuss them, argue about them, highlight the similarities and/or differences within the confines of the BSA program. There is no need to require individuals to make a declaration or sign a card, or do something required by another individual regarding faith. The Scout Oath and Law expect us to live up to the principles and tenets of our own beliefs, (not those dictated by someone else) and to respect those of others... specifically those which differ. If scouts/scouters at all levels would just live the principles and tenets of their own faith instead of worrying about others faiths or requiring others to do something we would be in a much better place. Now I am going to go outside and sit in the woods; the woods are my "church/synagogue/temple/mosque/gudwara/vihara".

I thought of another thing I would change. Thanks AZMike for reminding me. I would add pre-requisite merit badges as some of the requirements. for example, Wilderness Survival should have Camping MB as a requirement. If done right, this is an advanced merit badge and (along with my other ideas) should not be done in a group setting at summer camp with a 16 year old signing off on it. Other MB's should also have similar pre-requisites. Also in response to the response to my earlier post, while some MBs might be able to be done in groups, the vast reality is those which are done like this are far inferior. Also, while some MB's might be "good for first years", I still disagree. By allowing this, it removes the focus on the basic scouting outdoor skills enumerated in the T-1st class requirements. Based on a resurrected thread, I would also like to see the skill awards, or some version brought back. these could be used as pre-requisites for the MB's too. Obviously my gripe is the checklist mentality and the advancement as fast as possible without really knowing or applying skills. I like the original intent of the BSA (not the current values, citizen thingy)... To have boys learn to do things for themselves. If none of my ideas are good enough, scrap them and the current books and go back to the 1911 Handbook.

I know my suggestions would not be popular, but I would: Increase the rigor of the requirements for Tenderfoot through First Class. Prohibit the working on/earning of Merit Badges until the scout has earned First Class. Prohibit the use of non-adults as Merit Badge counselors at summer camp. Prohibit Large group Merit badge classes (MB universities/mills). I also agree with limiting the focus on religion. There are many other aspects of the oath and law which are just as important IMO. I do not see why we give special attention to one of them. we don't have a special declaration "to keep myself physically fit", nor do we remove scouts who are not "mentally awake", etc...

I had a similar discussion with non-scouters about what defines camping. This was while we backpacked a 30 mile loop. So we had quite a bit of time to discuss the concept. We discussed gear, sleeping, cooking, distance, activities, etc... We attempted to determine at what point did something become "camping". It became apparent that one item did not define something as camping, nor did the absence of it eliminate camping as the label. In the end, it we decided it was like Justice Stewart said about pornography, "I shall not today attempt further to define... I know it when I see it".

A pot blackened on the outside may be clean, or it may not. The same is true for a silver pot, it may be clean or not. I (we) see no need to spend the time to remove the blackening from the outside of the pot as it does not determine the cleanliness so it is a waste of time. Not to mention, the soap and soot removal is one of the messiest activities. Part of this is the soap the outside system has been used for so long by many, they think it must be the only correct way.

I never understood the soaping thing either, even as a scout. Growing up, all my cook gear was black on the bottom. In scouts we had to soap and clean the bottom of the patrol pots. I started to bring my own blackened ones. Still bring my own as a scouter and let the other adults soap and clean the bottom of theirs.

The farther one has to walk from the car to the campsite, the less cooking gear is carried. As Stosh discussed, less cooking gear doesn't require inferior meals. I personally do week long (or more) backpacking trips covering (sometimes) over 20 miles a day. My mess kit is a small pot and a cup. I eat very well. It takes practice and preparation. As stosh also said, the boys learn by watching. They saw me make a one pot jambalaya using the small 1.5qt from a patrol kit for the adults one night. The next meeting they asked me for the recipe. They made it for themselves on the next trip.

Cell phones are rendered moot when one is on a trail with no service.

Take a look here: http://www.onepanwonders.com/ to get some ideas, then you can get creative! Have fun.

Not on every trip. Take gear that is needed. Sime trips are pure adventure and the learning comes from the experience and testing skills and knowledge without having the resource at ones finger tips as a bailout. This type of learning promotes creative problem solving and adaptation. Some trips are learning with resources at ones finger tips, the goal is different. The right tool for the job.

Not on every trip. Take gear that is needed. Sime trips are pure adventure and the learning comes from the experience and testing skills and knowledge without having the resource at ones finger tips as a bailout. This type of learning promotes creative problem solving and adaptation. Some trips are learning with resources at ones finger tips, the goal is different. The right toil for the job.

IMO, if they are this young with such little experience in planning/buying/prepping/cooking for themselves let alone their patrols it is too early to even begin looking at the merit badge requirements. When they have significant experience, then they should make contact with a MB counselor and with a buddy work on the MB, but not as a whole class. MB's, IMO, should never be done "as a class".