DuctTape

I had a dream they decided to reprint the HandBook and Fieldbook from the 1950s. It was just a dream.

The type of human waste disposal system emplyed at a location is less about convenience for the visitors (and their desires) and almost entirely based upon volume of use. No facilities are appropriate in locations which get so few visitors. Front country locations might have pit toilets or outhouses. Areas with many visitors require more extensive systems to handle the volume.

Agreed. That is the main reason I dont care about market share, or the number of scouts nationally. I do care about shifts in the program away from the outdoors which makes scouts unique. What is called Scoutcraft; boys learning to do things for themselves. That WAS the mission.

One of my other volunteer jobs is helping maintain/repair/build lean-tos and outhouses/thunderboxes. The nastiest had to be after we dug a new hole for the outhouse. Usually we just tip the old one over and carry it to the new location. This nasty one required us to lift it about a foot first to avoid the seat decapitating the "cone of death".

Contrary to your belief that you are able to see things from the other side, clearly you either cannot or do not. That is too bad. I guess I will go back to being relatively silent and just wait out your remaining years.

I find your second paragraph interesting as it has felt for a very long time that much of the conservative agenda appears to be shoved down the throats of others. The idea that my council, district, troop, etc... could not have specific leaders they desired due to the jamming of others ideals down our throats. Why won't you et al allow us to live and let live and allow us to make our own choices as to who we allow as leaders? (Asked rhetorically). The slippery slope you fear has been our reality for the last few decades, at least now we can return to officially having the leaders we desired. We are not jamming our choice down your throat, we are glad you are no longer able to jam yours down our thoats.

Fyi, Devils Path is in the Catskills.

I have not done WB, but I have been a participant in many bsa trainings. Based on my experience, and what I have gleaned from this forum (and this specific thread) is the bsa ( national, council and district) have difficulty in designing and implementing the standards and curriculum. Perhaps it is my background as a professional educator that I am able to see not just the problem but the solution as well.

If memory serves me, First Class was supposed to be the highest rank; the complete outdoorsman. Everything beyond that was just to fulfill the boys desire to learn more about specific areas.

Unfortunately I think you would be correct in what would happen after some SMs get done interpreting. Too bad.

I agree in principle. The adventure need not be a one size fits all either. Imagine if thus quest was designed, planned and rhen executed by the Scout. It could be a backpacking adventure along a trail like the AT, or a canoe trip along a route in the BWCA or an off trail canping trip into the Adirondacks. While the "alone" aspect is a great idea, I think a significant adventure with two boys together would be fantastic. Perhaps one of the "requirements" would involve some aspect of soloing. Jyst thinking aloud here. While the Eagle award has a project, perhaps the FC rank could have the quest , and each succeeding award would entail another adventure? The FC Quest, The Star Search, The Life Journey, The Eagle Adventure.

I dont think the majority of the "hot button issues" would exist. I would guess it wouldbe a smaller organization, with a more limited focus on the Scoutcraft. It would fill the small niche left vacant and not try to be everything to everybody. I suppose I see it as beginning the same way it did at the beginning if the last century.

If by the time a boy makes it to life he hasnt internalized a meaning or drive ir what have you for Eagle, then the entire process from the beginning was lost on him. Many laugh at me when I bring up the 1911 handbook and say it is outdated, times have changed etc... I disagree, I believe the values espoused, specifically the "boys learning to do things for themselves" as the primary (sole) purpose of Scouting as the hb describes, it is those things which allow a scout to live up to his duty. Too much time and energy is focused on the abstract "values" and ethical decisions and not on the practical application. If by the time a boy has reached life scout and does not desire nor have the knowledge, skill, and understanding to complete the rest of his journey on his own (knowing and turning to resources for help of course) then he hasnt demonstrated fulfillment of the mission of scouting let alone demonstrated fulfillment of its highest award. The awards beyond first class rank are a fulfillment of Scoutings purpose, the practical application. IMO, the most important requirements are the most pencil whipped. Not the scoutcraft, or POR, but Demonstrating Scout Spirit. The boy's practical application of Scoutings mission and purpose. Do a good turn daily is too often just a phrase and rarely manifests itself in reality.

I still do not like the"work on any requirements for any rank at any time" business. This perpetuates the "one and done" problem as well as the "doing the bare minimum". Eliminating it would force real growth of the scout with those skills as they move along the continuum.

Yep, and SM Jones is a man and CM Smith is a woman. They are living together unmarried.

I agree with Stosh that other "experts" can and should be used as resources. I will add that scouting adventures at their core are led by the boy leader. Built into the boy led and patrol method is (or should be) a continuum of adventure led by the boys as their experience and knowledge grows. A patrol might want to go on some extreme type of adventure, but to get there they will need to plan a series of smaller adventures to build the knowledge and experience of the patrol and the boy leaders. The SM role is not to be a "wilderness guide", that is the job of the boy leader. The SM is there as a resource for the patrol. Some might say that the boys "cant do xyz, so how can they lead the trip?" My immediate response is then what level are they capable of, and encourage them to start there. Crawl, walk, run. This is Scouting, otherwise it is just a paid guide service staffed by unpaid guides.

I would recommend Chapter 1, Specifically the Aim of the Scout Movement. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29558/29558-h/29558-h.htm

It is expected the boys are able to explain, demonstrate etc... for their requirements. For adults they need to show up to be "trained". Many of the adult trainings I went to while they may have had good stuff in the curriculum, there was zero assessment let alone any follow-up to ensure understanding or putting theory into practice. Thus I would add some level of testing and/or accountability to the adult training.

The earlier and earlier they keep pushing the web-bs crossover I think is misguided. I know requirements have changed, but as we often bemoan here, not all are for the better. I also understand the rationale of the troop wanting more time with the new scouts before camp. I remember when the new scouts didnt really start with the troop until the fall. They were a bit older, having completed the 5th grade and this gave them and the troop a full year of integration, campouts etc... before summer camp.

No, my conclusion that your simplistic use of statistical modeling (ie linear model), assumptions, cherry picking of data intervals makes your conclusion nebulous at best. In the field this is calling into question the methodology. It is a common practice. If one were interested in actually determining something, they would accept critique if their methodology, improve on it, etc... instead of holding fast to their desired outcome.

Yes you said you concluded. I apologize for stating it as proof. However, the rest of what I said stands, replace proof with conclude.

Yes modeling is important, and complex and incolve both long term and shortvterm forecasting and causes are multi-variate. Yet, in this specific issue, you attempt to simplify it down to a single cause, with the only evidence being something changed, and you also force it to be linear by using an average, and you select only a subset of the data. That is not how modeling nor statistics are done except if one is looking to "prove" their preconceived notion.

Bad Wolf, your signature line is apropos. So why choose a linear model based solely on the last few years?

I hesitate to mention this, but so far we have only heard one side of the story. I agree with the general responses operating under the assumption that the side we heard was true. While we have no reason to doubt the accuracy, I am certain if the others involved had their say, the picture would appear much different. That said, we can all learn from the experience and how to deal with a similar situation.

Why not a patrol activity where they make their own?