DuctTape

I wish all people would show respect to others and treat them with kindness more than they do for symbols.

That is fantastic! I agree the old handbooks were much better written than the current. The inspiring prose is accentuated by providing specific examples for the boys. Both in story form, as a parable but also simple ideas of "how tos". The current books speak of ideas, with no practical application attached. Even if a boy wanted to do something, he has little to start with. But I digress. The collection you were gifted is certainly a treasure. One I am trying to build myself. Fortunately I already have a first edition I found at an estate sale among other old tattered books. I picked it up for 50 cents!

Not really. The "fair tax" is basically a national sales tax which would mean scouts would likely need to collect it based on sales, as the proposed "fair tax" in the early 2000s included food.

I would ask the adult who is questioning this whether the COH is for the scouts or for the parents since the only rationale given for interfering with what the scouts do is boredom for parents. This isn't to suggest that none of the other suggestions are bad, in fact I typically remind scouts that they are in charge and they have the power and authority to use the plan that has been used by others before them or change it.

My general reply is usually, "is this really a safety issue, or is someone just using safety as an excuse to interfere?"

I am not sure what you mean here. I am especially wary of an absolutist criteria since sales tax is governed by state and local law which can and do differ greatly.

I have seen "safety" as the excuse for adult interference taken to some ridiculous extremes. I am in no way suggesting this is the case for anyone here. Some extreme examples I have seen or heard in my past: 1. Adults must approve meal plans because proper nutrition is a matter of safety. 2. Adults will cook the food because they will follow safe food prep. 3. Scouts must camp close to the parking lot for emergency situations.

I also think the scouts should be doing the planning for the troop/patrol trips, and not the adult committees. I disagree that seeing is believing; doing isbelieving.

Deadlines and responsibility need not be a separate lesson just to avoid procrastination for the eagle award. These values can and should be part of the entire program as standard operating procedure. Jimmy doesn't sign up on time for the patrol campout, i guess he diesn't go. Timmy forgets to bring his medical form for the patrol swim, I guess he has to watch. Sounds harsh I know, but as long as adults keep bailing them out for the small things, they never need to be responsible or plan ahead. Then the big things they might miss out on. Better to miss a small thing and learn the value of responsibility and preparedness than miss out on something bigger later on.

And it gets even messier because of these "sales" even if for non-profits should be collected sales tax in many cases.

That is unfortunate. What is odd is how many businesses (big, small, non-profit...) fail to see how these types of partnerships are a benefit to their bottom line. Usually the small family owned businesses understand, because it is necessary for their survival.

Do the boys (eg. PLs) also "have the authority" to tear up another scout's totin chip card? I ask for discussion purposes for the rest of the readers.

Short, Simple, Effective. When it comes to training, only choose 2. In the attempt to "get everyone trained", the councils have chosen the first 2, subsequently sacrificing the 3rd.

I think kelty might have hip belts and shoulder straps which would fit as well. Could be a neat project for a patrol to make some too if they were so inclined.

When I was growing up my parents said that their responsibility was to provide a roof over my head, clothing on my back, and food on the plate. Since they were paying for it all, they made the choices on where we live, what we wore and what food we had at dinner. If we wanted extra or something different they were willing to pay for half. So if we came up with 50% of the money for something, they would cover the rest. Doing odd jobs around the neighborhood was the quickest way to earn a buck, but hard work so the dollar meant something which then translated into me caring for the item I purchased. Birthdays and holidays we received gifts, but looking back I took better care of the items I saved my own money for.

It doesn't need to be 100% to be done. No need to sacrfice the good in search of the perfect. If the boys are leading (financially) for 80%, that is good albeit not perfect. Using your accounts which the parents fund, each patrol member could go to the treasurer and withdraw the cash needed (as determined by the patrol) for the campout then give tbat cash to the grubmaster. Then proceed as ken described. In fact this is exactly what I am trying to encourage in my troop since they operate in a manner which is closer to 0%, so any step in the finance-boy-led direction is better.

I disagree that the money aspect is jyst static in the background. It is an integral part of the program. One could make the argument that meal planning is just a distraction and a bother... and they learn nutrition in school, etc...just have the adults plan it. The entirety of the campout, from the idea to execution including finance should and could be part of the the program. The patrol method, leadership and character are promoted by including the financial piece just as any other part. I try to anchor my thoughts to the maxim, don't do for the scouts what they can do for themselves.

Unfortunately the finance piece of scouting seems to have been taken over almost completely by adults. It is a shame as the financing of campouts, camporees, etc... is an awesome experience for scouts to learn. This is a battle I have been trying to fight at my own troop. The adults are extremely reluctant to allow to boys to do anything with money, except collect 25cents for dues by patrol each week. Often it seems the adults are more of a work in progress than the boys.

This is an application of Attribution theory. It isn't new by any means, but seems to have been forgotten in the last 20-30 years. The basics can be summed up by how one internalizes the answer to the question, "to what do I attribute my success"? Thus the issue isn't praise vs no praise, but instead how one praises, and what the child is praised for. Praise for effort when successful over time helps a child attribute their own effort as a driver for their success (contrast with praise success for "being smart" which over time a child will learn to attribute success /failure as a result of their own being). Of course all of this is a small subset of human development and many other factors play an integral role. Such is true of all science, we look at subsets to gain a better understanding of how they integrate into the whole. I think I need a beer now.

That is my point. The meaning is important, but we still expect the recitation as an affirmation of the ideals. Putting it into practice is then where the rubber meets the road. We don't just say, "well living the scout law is what's important so memorizing the 12 points is a waste if time".

I agree with stosh. Too much pomp and circumstance for "cross over".

And Stosh, replace the outdoor code with the scout law in your anecdote.

Of course living the outdoor code is more important than simple recitation. The same is true for the oath and law. Scouts should be demonstrating those virtues on site as well. To dismiss the outdoor code and claim only doing it onsite is also justification for eliminating the oath and law. The purpose of faithful recitation of these codes is a constant reaffirmation of the ideals, they are not the end of the journey but the map by which a scout follows.

As with all things in scouting, EDGE is a basic skill of teaching. It is not the end-all-be-all, it is just the beginning.

My point was not to explain all aspects or causes of intersex, but simply to point out that this isn't some new idea and in some cases (albeit rare) we do understand the genetic component as it relates chromosomally. In future we will likely learn more about specific gene sequences which trigger other gender expressions. I stand by my comment that this is not some dangerous idea, it is an acknowledgement of reality.