DuctTape

Translating differences require an agreed upon definition. The difference between kill and murder really comes down to whether the killing was ethical. This now begs the question and demonstrates the non-absolutism of the commandment itself.

If one is a leader, they have influence. Assuming one is a leader, then we can measure their effectiveness as a degree of influence. But the converse is not necessarily true which is Stosh's point. If one has influence, they may (or may not) be a leader. Reaching a certain threshold of influence does not determine a leader.

If a hoax is clearly ridiculous to serve as a joke, then I do not see a problem with it. This however is actually a change many of us would see as desireable, clearly NOT ridiculous. Which means it is not a joke, and not funny.

As an aside, last summer I spent two weeks in the Quetico (North of BWCA in Canada). The number of other paddlers is a mere fraction of that in the BWCA. Awesome fishing too.

The issues being discussed as classical scouting, are the focus on the outdoors, the requirements etc... These are not the membership changes nor about being "pc". Discussing camping requirements and other outdoor program issues, need not delve into politics.

Perhaps it is a bit too early in the morning for this comment, but I would rather the scouts are "uniform in spirit" meaning they act, behave, and think like Scouts when walking around outside of scouting activities. I would gladly sacrifice knee high two-toned socks for scouts to "do a good turn daily", or swap the necker for "help others at all times". The scouts helpfulness and service to others without reward or recognition is, IMO, more important, and to connect with a different thread exactly what BP meant about "practical religion".

I completely agree. The adventure starts small for scouts and scouters. As both grow and learn, the adventures increase.

Adults do not need to have the camping experience as a youth as a pre-requisite for helping boys plan and lead their own adventures. The adults need to be willing to learn and courageous enough to accept the next level of adventure. The adults can grow and learn as well. After 1 or 2 years any adult will have gained significant experience. If I was mentoring a new SM with zero outdoor, camping, or scouting experience I would give him a copy of my BSA Fieldbook. The first one. The "pow wows" are a linear progression of adventure using the patrol method. It is almost a "boy scouts for dummies" play by play.

The actual line from the 1911 handbook is (in part), "to promote the ability in boys to do things for themselves and others."

I always go back to the line in my 1911 Handbook, "Scouts is where boys learn to do things for themselves".

IIRC, the majority of of CO's beung religious orgs is relatively recent after schools stopped beung CO's after Dale, etc... I seem to recall that "friends of..." was a very popular CO at one time as well. I am sure someone with access to bsa history will either confirm or correct me.

There was always an ebb and flow with rural, urban, suburban, etc... I am a huge proponent of the outdoors personally and in scouting. However I still see the outdoors and the related activities not as the goal or even focus. I keep myself grounded to the the focus written in the first handbook for boys, BSA. The purpose of scouting is for boys to learn to do things for themselves. The out of doors is the location, and the patrol method is the means. If boys weren't interested in animal husbandry as a merit badge, but are interested in nuclear science then it makes sense to adapt mbs to the boys interest. The lack of adventure I see is not in activities or fun but the decrease in the amount the boys are doing themselves. A zip line is fun and all, but what did the boys learn to do themselves beyond planning the menu for the day trip. I am not suggesting that zip lines, etc... have no place. My point is the adventure is the boys deciding to do something, figuring out how to do it, and then doing it. Thus the lack of adventure to me is a result of well-meaning adults planning, organizing, fundraising, etc... I will probably get flamed for this last comment, but I think part of that is the fault of chartering organizations who use scouts for their own goals instead.

I thought this mom's idea of the Santa disclosure was fantastic...http://www.today.com/parents/santa-real-handling-santa-talk-your-kids-t105765

The difference in opinion here is based upon each starting from a different premise. There are two main premises which are at odds with one another. Premise 1: All gay, transgender, etc... is a choice made by the person. Premise 2: All gay, transgender, etc... are not choices made by the person. We are arguing conclusions without first agreeing on an original premise. I highly doubt that agreement on the two contradictory premises is coming anytime soon.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not advicating for more adults to be involved in running the program, only as logistical resources. This also maintains a pool of potential future SMs. With many patrols, working independently of each other there will be a time when all these patrols choose different outings for the same weekend. This is where having a cadre of other scouters becomes necessary. Not a larger pot of coffee, but 5 smaller pots each 50 miles away.

More adults are necessary to be drivers to events, and if more patrol based trips occur more adults are needed to have 2-deep on the separate events occurung simultaneously at different lications.

With those boys, also comes their parents. From that group the CC should recruit committee members, and the SM should recruit ASM's. Get the adults trained so as to manage the larger troop. If it is too much for a single SM, then have the troop "break" into 2 smaller "troops" each with their own "SM" (really an ASM.) The one area most find difficult is managing camping trips this large. Encourage less "whole troop" and do things as patrols. The entire troop can go together to district camporees or other similar type events. My point is, to concentrate on the patrols, not the troop as a whole. More scouts = more potential adult volunteers.

Or license "Eagle Scout" and other BSA trademarks, copyrights etc... to allow GSA to use them in their own program if they so wish.

I disagree that the problem stems from adults not having a scouting experience as a youth. The very first scouters did not have it, yet they were the ones who pioneered the patrol method. I think the training for scouters should be improved to focus on the patrol method explicitly. As has been mentioned the implicit lessons do not work. It needs to be focused and direct. "This IS the patrol method vs, this is NOT." Instead of journey to excellence, there should be a journey to the patrol method. For example, first measure: At amy meeting did adults speak to the entire troop for more than 2 minutes? My point is there needs to be clarity of ADULT expectations first.

I have no religious test for scouts or scouters. Their acknowledgement of the DRP is all that is required by the BSA. their beliefs, and actions consistent with them are between them, and their religious leader (and/or parents).

Focus on your den. The pack is mostly irrelevant for the boys. Sure, the pack does the big events and stuff, but it is the consistent fun at the den level that matters. I have many memories from my cub scout days, and all of them are from things we did as a den. I don't know if we ever interacted with other dens. I certainly have no memory of it.

What most don't even realize is that the real advancement is in knowledge, skills and experience. The checklist, sign-off, and badges are a token meant to represent the real advancement. It appears many have come to believe these tokens are the advancement, instead of simply a symbol. Without true advancement in knowledge, skills and experience, the symbol is meaningless in and of itself.

Agreed. The entirety of the mb process has the potential to be great, but it has devolved into schoolwork and checklists. It is a shame, the boys lose out on so much.

Charter schools will claim to be public schools when it suits them, and private when it suits them. Usually they claim to be public in the media, and claim to be private in court.

I wish not only would troop only mb counselors not be allowed, but that counselors are forbidden from signing off for scouts in their own troop. The boys lose out on so many opportunities by having everything done "in house". I am almost certain this will never change.